Ghabanos Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 first of all, I apologize to any honest contractors out there that thinks I am over generalizing... Ok - so I am renovating my apartment and I am having a terrible experience AGAIN!!! is it just me or do contractors: 1) gouge you where they can 2) deliberately omit things from the quotation that you need to win the bid only to add them on later because they know that you need it or it is a requirement to have 3) try to spin things after they make mistakes and never take responsibility. 4) drag things out when they received the money and try to annoy you until you give up chasing them 5) try their best to avoid taking responsibility for anything in case of future issues. ie "third party vendor touched this, so our warranty is void now." this is just the tip of the iceberg...OMG i just want to kill our contractor/designer. please excuse the blanket statements, but this experience really sucked and I really needed to vent...in this instance, I wish I could curse on the forum... share (vent) with us your renovation experience...please let me know that I am not alone... btw - I was really going to light one up tonight, but had a meeting with this person and I am pissed... so decided not worth wasting one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGC Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 I know what you mean. I hate trusting others to do work on my place. I try to do most of the work myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghabanos Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 I know what you mean. I hate trusting others to do work on my place. I try to do most of the work myself. I wish I had the skills or a contractor myself with team that I trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khomeinist Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Referral. Referral. Referral. I agree with all of your concerns and frustrations. I highly recommend asking around for months in advance prior to a big project. I think that you really need to be able to trust your contractor or else take vacation time from work and DIY and/or manage the living daylights out of anyone you hire blindly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac77 Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 I learned the hard way also. went through three contractors getting our house reno done and it still was not done in the manner we wanted or the cost. Since then we have been very careful to only utilize highly recommended contractors. get a few to come in to do quotes and don't pick the cheapest guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigharpoon Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 So sorry you are having a terrible experience with your contractor. As a long time professional finish carpenter I can only sympathize with you. Unfortunately, all your gripes are REAL and you ARE NOT alone in this type of BS. It puts a blight on the entire industry. This is just the way some contractors are and it's sad. It happens even more with a project being run by a homeowner GC because you can't bad mouth them effectively enough in the right circles to really impact their reputation. An industry GC could really damage their ability to get more work and they are more used to dealing with A-holes like this. Homeowners on their own really have little recourse unless they are doing something illegal. The only advice I can offer is to only use contractors your friends or associates have had pleasurable experiences with. Don't give them money for anything up front except a security deposit to cover an initial order of materials which should be showing up at your house very quickly afterwards. Don't let them boss you around, it's your name at the bottom of their check. Don't give them money for anything they haven't done yet. Most contractors won't put their own money into your project materials but if you pay them in advance for labor they haven't provided you...you just gave up your only power. Good luck, better luck next time. Also: if a contractor comes highly recommended don't be scared off if he wants to do it Time and Materials (as opposed to contract price). A contract price means someone is going to get screwed, either them or you. Guess who it won't be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac77 Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Another thing that I learned is that when providing money for materials get a receipt for the materials and stay on top of how much of those materials are actually used. A often used trick by contractors is to overbuy materials and either return them to the supplier or use them on another job for which they will charge again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cigcars Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 'Have heard many horror stories about screwed up "services" and experiences with contractors. It takes my sister to describe these antics in her own humorous ways. But that may be for another time. We use only those folks whom we've had no disasters with through the years, and who've thus become almost like family for us. The biggest culprit problems for me have been those contractors major appliance stores have just yanked up willy nilly, and then pretend like they (the appliance store) can't be held responsible for the bad job done, as far as correcting it later. It's taken a few summons' appearances at the company's door to rectify these occurrences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Presidente Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 1. Referral by people you trust. 2. For anything significant, have a schedule of works drawn up by a project manager. Make it detailed. the $500 or so that it costs is always worthwhile in my experience. 3. Be onsite to check work for at least an hour daily. If you can't do it, get the independent project manager to do it and pay the fee. 4. Let them in and let them out. Do not leave them a key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overproof Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 This is all great advice. I'm currently in the drafting/engineering stages of an extention/reno on my house.. I hope things work out for you in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianbeaver Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 This may be a minor suggestion but we did a huge overhaul on our home one year. The contractor, fortunately and his staff was great. Everyday I bbq'd them some burgers, made them sandwiches or ordered a pizza. I made them coffee in the morning or any of that stuff and I'll tell you why. Another time I didn't and the guys used to go off site for all this stuff (especially lunch) and I was often wondering where the hell they were. Another thing I did was pay for all materials on my credit card. The contractor often got his discount but did not have to finance the transaction and wait for me to pay him back. So the money was totally accounted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghabanos Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 Referral. Referral. Referral. I agree with all of your concerns and frustrations. I highly recommend asking around for months in advance prior to a big project. I think that you really need to be able to trust your contractor or else take vacation time from work and DIY and/or manage the living daylights out of anyone you hire blindly. This was a referral. Lol $hit still happens I guess. You are abdolutle right about taking more time to vet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I know how you feel. Had similar troubles with my place in Malaysia. My problem was, what passes for good quality in Malaysia, is passable quality in Australia. The builder and contractors couldn't understand why I was grumbling so much as they thought the work they did was fine. Most of the bathroom tiles had to be ripped out and re-installed as they didn't use enough adhesive to stick them on. You could actually tap on the tile and hear a hollow knocking sound instead of a nice solid thunk (the tiles were adhered to concrete walls, not plasterboard). And the grout used for the floor tiles is not the same standard as you get here, it is more like bathroom grout. Again I had them re-do the work with a different grout, as the original had begun to turn greyish black. The ceiling contractor wasn't much better as they left paint marks/splatter and gobs of white sealer in several conspicuous places. Had them hire a professional tiler to clean up the mess at their own expense. Still got some splatter here and there though. Worst part is, the contractors came highly recommended. I'd hate to see what a half-arsed job would be like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianbeaver Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Quick nightmare story about contractor putting in stone steps in front of my house. Guy was a lazy butt and spent most time talking, so everyone was forbidden to say a word to him. Had a young assistant. Young guy does not show up for work one day. Seems he got in a big fight at a bar last night and spent the night in jail. Stone boss has to take time in the afternoon to get his kid's ass out of the klink. Kid shows up with crap beat out of him, black eyes, cut lip, cut head, you name it. It was a boiling hot day. So I sit outside with a cold drink since our AC was not working. Loser jailbird looks at me, totally serious and says, "So. How old's your daughter?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangolf18 Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 A contractor wanted $50,000 to remodel my parents backyard (probably 40ft by 40ft...very small space). My dad was able to do the same thing the contractor wanted to do for around $5,000 and it only took my father about 2 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overproof Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Quick nightmare story about contractor putting in stone steps in front of my house. Guy was a lazy butt and spent most time talking, so everyone was forbidden to say a word to him. Had a young assistant. Young guy does not show up for work one day. Seems he got in a big fight at a bar last night and spent the night in jail. Stone boss has to take time in the afternoon to get his kid's ass out of the klink. Kid shows up with crap beat out of him, black eyes, cut lip, cut head, you name it. It was a boiling hot day. So I sit outside with a cold drink since our AC was not working. Loser jailbird looks at me, totally serious and says, "So. How old's your daughter?". I would have split him open again!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbmacri Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 As an ex-contractor in one of my "former lives" all of the above suggestions are good, but the one item that will normally always get a contractor back to complete the work as agreed or correct omissions / mistakes is making sure to have a "hold back" of 15% give or take of the agreed upon total contract amount. This 15% constitutes a good portion of the contractors profit for the job. Never pay the 15% until you are satisfied. Just my "two cents". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cigcars Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Quick nightmare story about contractor putting in stone steps in front of my house. Guy was a lazy butt and spent most time talking, so everyone was forbidden to say a word to him. Had a young assistant. Young guy does not show up for work one day. Seems he got in a big fight at a bar last night and spent the night in jail. Stone boss has to take time in the afternoon to get his kid's ass out of the klink. Kid shows up with crap beat out of him, black eyes, cut lip, cut head, you name it. It was a boiling hot day. So I sit outside with a cold drink since our AC was not working. Loser jailbird looks at me, totally serious and says, "So. How old's your daughter?". That's probably how he got in the bar fight in the first place! Only he probably wasn't talking to a patient, pleasant lady like you - envision Drunkenmonkey's avatar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazolaman Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 This is an interesting topic. As a qualified carpenter and electrician, of 20 years, I'd say there's some good advice on here. Recomendation. If it's big enough job, get them to take you to other projects the've done. Ask to see certificates of qulification. Ask if they use sub contractors, or their own team, as "subbies" often care less than direct empoyees. Don't be frightened to ask questions. I always worked to a quote, then evryone knows where they stand. I always worked as sole trader, and used the same guys for the bits I didn't do myself, ie gas and decorating. I never really needed firm legal contracts, but have used them, as I didn't request money untill after a weeks work, when the customer could see the progress, and always made clear that the last payment would only happen upon their satisfaction. Any niggles they had were sorted out. In defence of tradesmen, there are times when you remove obsticles to find an unknown horror...dubious wiring, rotten timber joists, rising damp etc etc... If they were to fulfill their contract, they would just put the new in over this..a degree of common sense states that the unforseen problem requires sorting out, so this will obviously cost more. I've had some idiot customers too, who could not grasp that they may need to eat out, or microwave food for two days while I do a certain stage of a kitchen fit, or didn't realise that me sawing wood is noisy, and may disturb their afternoon nap.....there are idiots on both sides. So as stated above, saying hello and making a cuppa will often get you a little extra milage from them. I also have had customers who change their minds about spec half way through, and don't realise that this may cost more, as I work to a calculated quote...and the dreaded phrase is..."could you just ease this door while you're here"...ie for free. Most bigger projects here are pyed in incriments at key stages..ie, first floor completed....roof on etc etc, which seems snsible. I'd say, recomendation, and smaller companies who don't use sub contractors. Now, can we move on to Bankers and Management, who cost us all millions, and who's labours are intangible, so we can never actually see what they have done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Presidente Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Now, can we move on to Bankers and Management, who cost us all millions, and who's labours are intangible, so we can never actually see what they have done? ....nothing to see here You have a good point in that clients can be idiots as well. I have plenty of members locally who are builders and I get to hear the horror stories of mad clients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDistrictJP Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 you're not really a homeowner until you've been screwed over by some local maintenence\repair\contractor. It's why I still laugh when people say that you are 'throwing your money away' by living in an apartment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squarehead Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I do everthing myself but it helps to be an electrician(ret'd).If I make a mistake and it happens ,I've nobody to blame but myself. A contractors theme is"To succeed in bussiness,screw everybody". What I hated the most is when your customer always stands right behind you and is constantly looking over your shoulder.Also,where ever I did some work I cleaned up the mess I made.That's the way I was trained during my apprenticeship in the early 1960's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 This is not a contractor issue. This is a human nature issue! Along with building the world best humidors... I know a few things pretty well, two of them are sales and human nature. Many of you are going to likely take this wrong cause it is easy to blame the other guy, but consumers don't really want to know the truth or the details. As a real estate broker for 25 years now, I have seen markets come and go. I have had customers tell my wife, "Ray is too honest!" because I insisted on disclosing items that they refused to disclose! In the 2004-5 time frame, while I was early in prognostication I began to tell customers that the market would collapse, costing me a lot in commissions! You know what some of my customers did. Embarrassed from the information, they simply used another broker!!! They did exactly what I told them not to do, after they specifically asked my opinion, and when they did not get the answer that they wanted, they simply found a broker who was happy to take the commission, regardless of the soundness of the plan. I refused to sell neg-am loans, they got them elsewhere. People want what they want. And they want it for the price they want it. They don't want to hear no! Telling them no, just means you don't get paid and another does! People don't want information, they don't want details that stop them. They want to hear yes, and they will seek out the broker, contractor, doctor, lawyer or agent that gives them that answer! ... I still tell people no, and it still costs me money! My integrity is more important than a commission! Details are important to me. Understanding is important to me. Most people just don't care! I am also a commercial construction manager. The construction customer, professional construction administrators, don't not want to hear no either and these are pros! I mean if it cannot be done, and you tell them no they go ballistic! They would rather pay you to fail and hear excuses than deal with the honest evaluation of the project before you start. I had an owner PM ask to have me removed from a job when I told him I refused to build a wall that was not structurally sound (designed to hold display rugs in a large department store chain). When I contacted the engineer, against the wishes of the PM, and told them what they were attempting to do, recognizing his ass was on the line, he flew out and re-detailed the elevation and backed me up. Even he did not want to tell the owner no! The owner was mad a hell... I figured that he did not want a multi-million dollar lawsuit when the racks fell on someone! No, he just wanted what he wanted at the price he wanted... I know many people don't know construction, but don't just lay it off on them! Can you take the word no? When someone offers details, do you want to know? Do you want to know that the wall you want to chop out is load bearing and requires a footing, or do you just want the cheapest price from a guy who will support it in the middle of your unsupported floor??? Are you willing to hire an architect, or an engineer so that your house does not collapse on you... or do you figure that if it does you will simply sue the contractor? You need to be active and dedicate yourself to getting good services. And then you need to be willing to pay professionals for their time. You need to have the fortitude to be told that you have a problem and in order to do the job right it is gonna' cost you a few bucks! You need to ask questions, perhaps do a little home study, and READ THE DAMN CONTRACTS, before you sign them. Over the last several years I have watched everyone with their opinions about the housing collapse. I love that they blamed the brokers and the banks. You know what the client says when you tell him he can't afford the property? I don't care, it is zero down and not my money! If you tell them too much they write you off and find a dummy that just wants to get paid! Some just want the pretty box and the second band. They don't care what the cigar tastes like! That is my 2 cts on the issue of professional services. Cheers! -Piggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcedCanuck Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Over the last several years I have watched everyone with their opinions about the housing collapse. I love that they blamed the brokers and the banks. You know what the client says when you tell him he can't afford the property? I don't care, it is zero down and not my money! If you tell them too much they write you off and find a dummy that just wants to get paid! I feel that is why federally enforced regulations are necessary; so glad to live in a country that has those in place. For years people south of our border used to say how ridiculous Canadian housing regulations are because it makes it much harder to get a house but it prevents what happened in the US housing market from happening here ... just my .02 I think having a federal agency that regulates contractors would be a good thing as well and home inspectors should be liable the way they are in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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