Vitola that best represents the Marca?

[PigFish]

Will someone please read the title?

What I am saying is that brand taste is defined by an individual and by time. In my mind, Habanos are living on time borrowed from the past and not supporting it.

What a marca represents then is based on experience over time. If time has eroded the experience my eyes, am I due not the privlige of speaking of it?

The Habanos experience has eroded over time. If you disagree, I don't really care! Post what you think the ultimate Partagas is, or otherwise and be happy!

When the epitome cigar no longer exists... the brand is dead!

-Piggy

[canadianbeaver]

Thank you for what has to be the most insightful and educational reads in a while. The cigar lists are a good indication of where members' collections are going and the text posts are so filled with info.

The only comment I would like to add has to do with the evolution of the Cuban product. It's decline or holding steady in quality has many factors, even the environment's effect on the growing of the leaves. And like any family business, will the children do as good a job as the parents generation after generation, and this is before we have even got to the tobacco/cigar manufacturing level.

All smoking, cigar or cigarette, is in decline. We are so passionate, well obsessed really, but our market share is so tiny. Even if the market opened up to all of the USA, the market would still be tiny. The price point is too high and smoking is still unhealthy, with limited places to smoke. Worldwide, anyone who really loves Cuban cigars can get them, including the USA.

We here at FOH are making the most of the current situation and finding vintage cigars and appreciating the best is pretty much in line with wine, scotch, fine art and other top of the food chain passions.

Oh and I forgot to answer the question!!!

Hoyo Epi# 2 for me. End of story.

[mk05]

Who is to say what any marca is "supposed" to taste like?

Each marca absolutely has a theme. Do you think RE or LE are blended randomly? (wait don't answer that! jk ) Ligadors don't just sit there, throw the pacas at the rollers and tell them to let their imaginations run wild. Otherwise, bring on the plain packaging, since it won't matter what the cigar is.

As for blending, I was told that usually the marca is as defined by the PC, then blends are sized up from that (tweaked) to fill cervantes, corona, robusto, etc. It's why people say the PC is the most indicative of the marca, because well, it's the first (original) blend.

[Ryan]

Ligadors don't just sit there, throw the pacas at the rollers and tell them to let their imaginations run wild.

You're right. They don't throw them.

[CanuckSARTech]

Each marca absolutely has a theme. Do you think RE or LE are blended randomly? (wait don't answer that! jk ) Ligadors don't just sit there, throw the pacas at the rollers and tell them to let their imaginations run wild. Otherwise, bring on the plain packaging, since it won't matter what the cigar is.

As for blending, I was told that usually the marca is as defined by the PC, then blends are sized up from that (tweaked) to fill cervantes, corona, robusto, etc. It's why people say the PC is the most indicative of the marca, because well, it's the first (original) blend.

Agreed. That's my experiences as well, from literature on the subject, and straight from the horses' mouths in Cuba.

[CanuckSARTech]

Yes but if you want something that is indicative of the marca, then the themes of the marcas need to be clearly and easily defined. They are not. Maybe once, a long time ago, but certainly not anymore.

For instance, Partagas is supposed to have some pepper notes. There has never been any pepper in any PSP2 I have ever smoked. A PSD4 can easily be confused for a BRC or RASS. A Party Salomones can easily be confused with a Cuaba Salomones. Etc.

Just saying that a specific cigar is representative of a marca means nothing if the rest of the vitolas in the marca have nothing to do with it!

And yes, Many ELs taste the same to me. You get that dark chocolatey wrapper and it sall similar. As for the REs...well, most are huge misses. Some are big hits. Few are representative of what I would have expected.

I'd agree that ELs and REs are a different animal. It seems plain that with the EL releases, they all have that chocolate tone - that appears to just be something that darker, oily, well-aged Habanos leaf presents for flavour. And with the REs, they seem to be controlled more by the market/distributor, rather than being true to the marca, something that's definitely evident with the recent LGC RE that was relabelled as a VR.

But I'd wholeheartedly disagree with you on the other stuff. To say that there's no brand distinguishment, no definition between them, is just incorrect, IMO. You say you've never got pepper notes with a PSP2, or confuse SDN4 with a RASS. I'd say then that you must have had some extremely bad samples, or your palate just didn't "get" the cigar (not saying that your palate isn't refined, but that some flavours just don't work for some people), or a combination of both. True, depending on the size and the format of the cigar, some marcas/vitolas are definitely closer to others - Party and Cuaba Salomones being an example.

Some people smoke cigar after cigar after cigar, and so their palates potentially distinguish less. Others make cigar smoking a sort of an "event", and cleanse the palate before, during, and after, and so their palates can distinguish and pick out more. Again, not saying either method is correct or not, it's just whatever "works" for that particular person.

I had discussions about this a bit with one person when we were down in Havana. He said he couldn't pick out flavours, that a cigar to him only tasted like a good cigar or a bad cigar. But me and others, who smoke way less in a day or a week, can pick out individual flavours. And I'd say that's the majority of people.

True, the blends and perhaps strengths of cigar marcas/vitolas are not as defined as they were in years past. Most of that, I'd put forth, is a product of the type of tobacco they're using now, which they had to change in the late 90's due to blue mold issues with the crops, and the sustainability of the business. But they're still definitely blending to a brand marca for the most part - you can definitely see that from either end of the spectrum of similar-sized cigars, like with a CoRo compared to a RASS, or a Magnum 46 compared to a SCDLH La Fuerza.

But to say that it's certainly not done anymore is perhaps making a presumption with blinders on.

[PigFish]

Who is to say what any marca is "supposed" to taste like?

Certainly part of my point! Not having ever believed in the golden tongued guru, my taste, your taste, your dog's taste... are as good or as bad as the next guys. I define good taste (to me). As you define good taste to you. We all define consistency and marca characteristics personally. There is no right answer.

I myself don't buy into profiles, which in some ways is the topic. What represents a marca as in taste profile consistency, is a marca profile question. It also depends on what you smoke and what you like in that marca outside of what you would consider taste consistency. What I call the "exceptional smoking experience." What cigars you like then is also a marca question. There is a correlation either way. I introduced a concept of "slippage." Or the erosion of the Cuban cigar "smoking experience" based on deletions. One can agree or disagree surely!

If I believe that the best cigars are no longer being made and I relate those to the epitome of a marca, then marca, beyond a band and a box, no longer exists for me! You can put a brick in a shoe box and call them Nikes, but you won't be selling that box to me, because I have defined the branding of that product for myself via experience.

As always one man's trash is another man's treasure and I recognize that I am an anachronism and well outside of the mainstream of thought and trend. My opinion exists anyway!

Nut, after acing one of the taste test contest I will give you quarter. You seemed to know the sticks tasted. However, in a broad sense it proves there are no really reliable taste profiles. As the lone wolf your data point would likely be removed as scatter. There are projections of them, and those that look for them, but when blind tasting is tested publicly, marca profile simply fails. Perhaps one could make the argument that some are golden tongued!!! I cannot. Mix with it many vitolas over many years and likely no one gets many of the cigars correctly. Certainly not enough to prove marca profiles.

I submit then, borrowing some from other posters, if marca profile changes and the change is not negative but lateral, it still does not exist beyond the transient and as a result does not exist at all!

Thanks for reading... -the Pig

[PigFish]

Pig, I wrote the same thing you did. But I did it in one line....lol

At least we're on the same page!

I find that being misunderstood can be accomplished in many ways. It is just more fun when you can confuse others with abstract concepts!!! -the Pig

[finecigar]

for me:

Bolivar: Coronas Gigantes

Cohiba: Lancero/Robusto (classic Cohiba flavor profile and enjoyment)

Cuaba: Salomones (best of the line)

ERDM: Grandes de Espana/Choix Supreme

Fonseca: No. 1 (not a very good line of cigars all together)

H. Upmann: Mag 46, Sir Winston

Hoyo d M: Double Coronas

Juan Lopez: Seleccion No. 2 aged are delicious are set apart from others

Montecristo: If you have time for a fresh A-those are fabulous, 5+ yr aged especiales, Sublimes 2008, & the most recent 520

Partagas: fresh or aged, D. No. 4 or Lusitanias both incredible and have that partages taste

PL: nothing in their range is as character-full and flavorful than the PL 07 Robusto

Punch: Punch punch is my personal favorite

Quai D'Orsay: Imperiales reflect the marca quite well

RA: 898 was truly the best, RASS is acceptable

RyJ: Aged Churchill or cazadores- spicy and strong, bit harsh at times.

SLR: Lonsdales

Sancho Panza: Belicosos no questions asked. have that earthy, light flavour that they all share in common,the Escuderos were nice also

SCdlH: El Morro with a little bit of age on it is classis

Trinidad: Fundadores without a doubt

VR: Don Alejandro

It seems to me that a lot of Cuban marcas have fine example vitolas in their current production line-up that are both longer in length, as well as shorter. A nice ying yang going on in some of the classic marcas such as Partagas, Cohiba, Montecristo, Bolivar, etc..

[mk05]

fun when you can confuse others with abstract concepts!!! -the Pig

So if I don't agree, I'm confused right?

[PigFish]

So if I don't agree, I'm confused right?

...is this a trick question? -LOL

Mate, I don't remember what I wrote much less what you wrote! My preference is that you don't take offense to what I have said and if my memory serves me, I can't recall anything that I intended to offend anyone (that includes you), but of course that is no guarantee that someone does not take offense to something anyway!

So how about this, you answer your own question, but before you do, understand that if I have offended you, I apologize for it now. While it is pretty easy to get a debate out of me if I am interested in the topic, it is even easier to get an apology. While it is not out of the question, I don't generally post here to intentionally piss people off! If the intent of my posts were keyboard assaults, Brother Rob would have removed me long ago.

Typically, there is no doubt about my position if I am going to say, "One is confused."

Cheers. -the Pig

[demiurgic]

Ray you nailed it in your convoluted way, as usual.

What isn't confusing : "You can put a brick in a shoe box and call them Nikes, but you won't be selling that box to me, because I have defined the branding of that product for myself via experience."

The comes thru with his daily smoking stock of 10+ year old cigars.