Moral Dilemma

[Fuzz]

A happy and content worker is less likely to bite the hand the feeds him. Pay people a fair wage, treat them well, invite them to contribute ideas for the future development of the company and let them benefit from the company's growth. When people realise that what they do will affect the company and ultimately their own pocket, they will police themselves and other workers.

Yeah, it is idealistic thinking, but you gotta have faith sometimes...

[Blakes]

Is this not yet another argument for some sort of privatisation within the cc industry. Seperating the brands so they are in competition, not only for quality/price of cigars, but of how well they treat/pay the workers (afterall the factories with the best pay/treatment would get the best rollers, produce better cigars, make more profit)... in turn the better conditions means this would happen alot less. Also if the brands/factories were owned fully/partly by someone instead of the 'state' that person would keep a better eye on things. I think most people think differently when taking off someone as opposed to a state/goverment or large company.

[Nino]

Don't get me wrong. I don't hold an iota of grievance to the rollers. I also don't think poorly of my house mates who partook. In my group they were all first timers to Cuba. It was my fault in not laying down the rules, expectation. I understand how shocked they would have been when they were approached repeatedly. "Is this normal?" "Is this expected?" "Is this Legal?" "Must be"

As I pointed out to them later....."I don't know of one legal transaction where the exchange of money/goods/services occurs in the toilets!"

If I wasn't so caught up having a conversation with a mate outside I would have seen what was going on earlier and simply said "Jose organised this tour, don't put him in a predicament".

So I was to blame as much as anyone else. If you organise something (or have someone organise it), then engage fully in what is going on.

Rob,

I share the blame as well, as specially a very greedy guy from my German group filled his backpack and even had the chutzpah to ask me for money to buy more before I told him to stop it.

First and Last time for him, but the damage is done - sad thing is that in his postings on a german board this clown insults ordinary cubans and prefers fake street cigars over genuine Cohibas.

Mea culpa.

[gigabyte056]

I think you should not look to blame the society or the industry, if you do dealings in the bathroom with cash at hand, you are in the wrong no matter how you try to paint it.

If it were OK, you would do it out in the open and be done with it, and I don't think anyone needs to be told that buying stuff in the bathroom from the rollers is not good form, we all are in the habit since we can afford it, we didn't get to this position by playing dumb did we?

[El Presidente]

Rob,

I share the blame as well, as specially a very greedy guy from my German group filled his backpack and even had the chutzpah to ask me for money to buy more before I told him to stop it.

First and Last time for him, but the damage is done - sad thing is that in his postings on a german board this clown insults ordinary cubans and prefers fake street cigars over genuine Cohibas.

Mea culpa.

Nino, "we are not our brothers keeper"

In the end it comes back to me. I felt bad because Jose arranged it. No doubt the shenanigans got/or will get back to him officially.

I am pretty sure that if I had called the group together prior and laid down the rules (and why), 99% would have complied. You know what it is like mate. Beautiful day, I had been to this factory plenty of times prior (albeit not in a large group) and I had not seen the agrressive roller selling.

I was off my best game. As they say, "Only the mediocre are always at their best"

Live and learn. I will know better next time (should the opportunity occur again) and keep the group to a manageable size.

Should it have been my first trip to Cuba I would have been stunned and likely indulged. Obviously It wasn't, and so Jose's trust as well as that of "Y" was in me to keep a level of decorum.

Full responsibility is mine and I have apologised to all needed.

[Chaki]

I would agree that buying cigars from rollers is theft.

However...When I was in Cuba I actually bought custom cigars from a very famous roller. He travels all over the world and represents the Cuban cigar industry. My moral compass did not spin wildly. I did not ask him his business registration nor did I enquire about the source of the leafs and tobacco for the custom cigars. I did not press on him on his tax payment and social security contribution to the Cuban government. So I assume I took part in an illegal transaction. However, I did not find anything wrong with it from a moral standpoint.

In fact, while it is illegal for a Cuban national to flee his country, I would help him to do so if i was asked. My point is that legality and morality are two different things. I am not rationalizing anything but I just don't feel I did anything wrong by buying custom cigars and thereby helping a nice person make ends meet.

Flame away!

[Pilgrims]

Pres I am with your view point all the way, we have to buy and give our custom on the basis of who we trust and that it is fair. You can't have it both ways in my view. It is like not voting and then complaining about the politicians.

[maverickdrinker]

Luckily, I had the opportunity to talk with the CDN contingent prior to entering said cigar factory and explained why we shouldn't buy 'off the tables'

What was interesting to watch was how blatant/aggressive the selling was. I, too, have never seen that in my trips to said cigar factory. It wasn't discreet at all. More like being at the market.

You can see why the government has decided to shut down factory tours.

[maverickdrinker]

I would agree that buying cigars from rollers is theft.

However...When I was in Cuba I actually bought custom cigars from a very famous roller. He travels all over the world and represents the Cuban cigar industry. My moral compass did not spin wildly. I did not ask him his business registration nor did I enquire about the source of the leafs and tobacco for the custom cigars. I did not press on him on his tax payment and social security contribution to the Cuban government. So I assume I took part in an illegal transaction. However, I did not find anything wrong with it from a moral standpoint.

In fact, while it is illegal for a Cuban national to flee his country, I would help him to do so if i was asked. My point is that legality and morality are two different things. I am not rationalizing anything but I just don't feel I did anything wrong by buying custom cigars and thereby helping a nice person make ends meet.

Flame away!

Custom rollers get their tobacco from HSA as they are the 'house roller' for their respective LCDH. I was at one particular LCDH speaking with Hamlet and he asked me to told on for 20 minutes. A bus arrived and he had to do a rolling demonstration. It was fun wathcing the tourists ooh and aah over his rolling techniques and skills.

[Puros Y Vino]

Luckily, I had the opportunity to talk with the CDN contingent prior to entering said cigar factory and explained why we shouldn't buy 'off the tables'

What was interesting to watch was how blatant/aggressive the selling was. I, too, have never seen that in my trips to said cigar factory. It wasn't discreet at all. More like being at the market.

You can see why the government has decided to shut down factory tours.

We Canadians were well behaved. Surprising isn't it? When the tour was pretty much over and we got to roam around that's when the action really picked up. I had a few whistles my way and when I'd turn I'd be presented with what looked like a bundle of 25 BHK56's. That's a lot of ! I turned it down though. We all agreed to say no. Besides, I was buying all kinds of customs from various LCDH's at a rate far lower than anything back home. I won't pass judgement on those who did, but I do hope that this doesn't reflect badly on those who arranged the tour. I get that the rollers were looking to make a fast buck, that the system they live in is unfair, etc. But, in a vacuum. The actions were not "legal". I won't say moral as that is too complex a topic down in Cuba. Now, back to my draft email to Smithy on those "back channel" boxes he has for sale.

[Colt45]

My brief take echoes what members have already alluded to....

In black and white, it's theft and purchasing stolen goods. With some context, perhaps more towards shades of gray.

(which, I guess, is no real excuse)

Once in Jamaica, I bought a case of beer off the back of a truck.......

Pardon me while I go light up a Czar Custom.

[El Presidente]

Custom rollers get their tobacco from HSA as they are the 'house roller' for their respective LCDH. I was at one particular LCDH speaking with Hamlet and he asked me to told on for 20 minutes. A bus arrived and he had to do a rolling demonstration. It was fun wathcing the tourists ooh and aah over his rolling techniques and skills.

For the record mate

LCDH in Cuba receive leaf from Tabacuba. Tabacuba has a division called RAMA (LEAF) and the bales are stored in different warehouses along the city. All the Casas del Habano will be invoiced through Tabacuba as per the amount of the leaf purchased.

Great rollers working with the Divan manager can form relationships with the RAMA people and get what they want (if available).

[BrotherBear]

All the Casas del Habano will be invoiced through Tabacuba as per the amount of the leaf purchased.

Great rollers working with the Divan manager can form relationships with the RAMA people and get what they want (if available).

As a result of our discussion in Havana and this thread I have wondering about this.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Diamondog]

Very informative thread!

[Bartolomeo]

"Should it have been my first trip to Cuba I would have been stunned and likely indulged".....Rob

If it was my first trip to Cuba and I wasnt told any better by anyone, I probably would of bought a couple of cigars not thinking it was wrong. That being said, if I was on a tour and was told not to buy anything and why I shouldnt, then that would make sense and I wouldnt participate. Hopefully no one gets in trouble and it makes sense now why people shouldnt buy from the rollers but you cant expect people to know all of the ins and outs for their first factory tour. Chalk it up as a learning experience for everyone reading this thread moving forward

Bart

[Lotusguy]

Rob,

I share the blame as well, as specially a very greedy guy from my German group filled his backpack and even had the chutzpah to ask me for money to buy more before I told him to stop it.

First and Last time for him, but the damage is done - sad thing is that in his postings on a german board this clown insults ordinary cubans and prefers fake street cigars over genuine Cohibas.

Mea culpa.

I think I know who you are talking about... it's the same tool that justifies his purchase of fakes in bulk with "helping out the poor", isn't it? Sickening...

[winelover]

Corruption is wrong. But then so is communism and state appropriation of private property, ask the tobacco farming exiles what they think about the morality of the status quo.

In a country built on property theft, denial of political rights and fundamental freedoms, and with a command economy, I think I too would be peddling cigars to tourists and trying to make what I can to support my family. It is easy to take the high ground from our comfortable western perspective but we are not facing the same daily struggle. Also firmly believe in the bible passage "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

[Tashaz]

As to your question Rob, where you asked if it was my business how would I feel? I would fire every damn one of them. Now consider how this would affect the roller's families. That is a massive risk they take, poverty or not.

[mazolaman]

My Parents brought me back some "Bargains" from a Cuban factory, years ago, they were banana leaves wrapped in tobacco...

Buyer beware!

[Nino]

I think I know who you are talking about... it's the same tool that justifies his purchase of fakes in bulk with "helping out the poor", isn't it? Sickening...

Yep, had never met the guy before & wanted to show him the better parts of the tobacco world he's never seen, but it was a useless task imho. His never ending rant about saving a penny, how bad & lazy the Cubans are and how cheap & good street fakes are got on our nerves quickly and we basically ignored him, but, again, too late ... lesson learned.

[CanuckSARTech]

Yep, had never met the guy before & wanted to show him the better parts of the tobacco world he's never seen, but it was a useless task imho. His never ending rant about saving a penny, how bad & lazy the Cubans are and how cheap & good street fakes are got on our nerves quickly and we basically ignored him, but, again, too late ... lesson learned.

A shame. I never saw this side of things with him, but c'est la vie. Live and learn then.

[CanuckSARTech]

Rob and Nino,

We had some huge discussions regarding the shenanigans of this later on that night on the back patio at the Nacional.

As Art mentioned, we discussed things previously with our group. The few of us who have done trips and tours like this before gave a "briefing" if you will to the others. So, we weren't overly concerned with that aspect for our group.

But I did make a point of some new joiners to our contingent, to advise and guide as best as Art and I could, as to the best path to take with this.

And it was amazing how vociferous the sales attempts were. I've only seen it that bad once before, at a different location, many years ago.

But, it wasn't necessarily our position to try to stop/correct the actions of others in various other groups from our own. However, we did try to point it out to the respective parties when needed/able, for the betterment of the behaviour of the overall/larger group.

Now, regarding your question....

Even with me in my job, I agree with others here. Both the morality and legality of this has many shades of grey.

Most of us go down to Cuba a load up on cigars. Be it custom rolls, LCDH-bought boxes with fracturas, or even specials from the occasional friend, anything you buy in Cuba is a huge discount versus what we would pay to buy these at home. So then, in essence, we are "robbing" the government coffers and the health care systems of our home countries from the tax money that these cigars would gain them. We go to Cuba, load up on these cigars for pennies on the dollar, but then go home to smoke them, and potentially cause there to be added cost to our long-term health care, but denying the added tax dollars. Just another thought on this also.

For me, and our conversation we had with this, I think it's all about time and place. If you have a roller friend who doesn't smoke, and they're allowed to take home two cigars of whatever they roll everyday, and they then stockpile up these cigars to sell to you for the one or two times a year you come to visit them, is that okay? Or is that considered stealing too? I personally don't think so. But, as was discussed, how much proof do you then have that this roller isn't stealing more than the two a day to give you your cigars? So then how different is all of this from buying from the rollers right off the table at the factory?

For my sense, it's a definite no to buying from the tables for sure. But maybe, regarding purchasing from a trusted acquantance of their private stash - those are their cigars to do with how they see fit, as I understand it. I think it's all about time and place. To encourage what we saw at that tour, is to enable them to risk and jeopardize their family's long-term livelihood for a couple of extra bucks in the right now.

In my morality, it's about all parties doing it as "correctly" as it can be done in a system like that.

[amosnaim]

I have what Rob has wrote and all the different comments.

I think that whether such a dilemma exists or not, as part of human nature as written by some people above, there is no question about the lack of legitimacy of such a thought when you are a guest of someone.

[rfenst]

Thieves. No excuse or explanation for knowingly buying stolen goods will ever convince me otherwise. I would have not been "polite" about it either, Rob.