Moral Dilemma

[El Presidente]

So on a beautiful day I took my group to a Cuban Cigar Factory (no need to mention which one folks).

It was an excellent tour, a lot of fun but something did not sit right as I watched rollers selling cigars from the tables. They were great deals indeed and some of the lads in my group purchased. I didn't say anything until I hopped in the car.

"How about I call La Corona and see if we can go and steal from them"

Yes..I said it tongue in cheek!

The discussion continued back at our house that afternoon over some freshly "purchased" cigars.

Ther argument was that they were only helping the rollers. "Crap" I said. If you wanted to help the rollers give them a donation for no return.

I asked a simple question.

"If you were doing a tour of my facility and Smithy was selling my cigars behind my back and pocketing the cash....would you purchase?"

.....they all grinned and said...."Yes"

Still, the point was made and I am not trying to be high and mighty about it all but as someone in the Industry, the whole factory tour "grabfest" that has been going on in different factories for as long as I can remember sits uncomfortably.

How do we change the culture of corruption when we partake in it?

If it was your business, how would you feel?

Food for thought and I would love different viewpoints. Again, not moralising, just questioning. It is probable I am becoming an old fogey

[Overproof]

It's exploit or be exploited for them I guess.

[Dara]

While over at the Partagas Encuentro I popped out to a factory to drop in some presents to a friend who works there and brought a few North American friends with me who were interested to see the place.

The friend kindly offered to give us a quick tour and while walking round I said to the guys what I had been told by an Irish friend the first time I went to the factory, no matter how good the offers just politely decline (as the friend who was giving us the tour could ultimately get into trouble).

I passed on the same information to the friends before we went in but I couldn't get over the amount of offers....maybe I thought the whole Abel thing would make people scared of being so obvious in offering smokes to tourists but the rollers were trying to call us straight over to their tables to sell us the amazing cigars they had just rolled.

Sometimes you have to say No, no matter how good the offer and how hard it is to resist the temptation!

[Fuzz]

Tough question, Rob. Either way you slice it, you are perpetuating a system of corruption. Is a roller selling cigars at the factory any different than what Abel Esposito did, selling cigars under the table to distributors? Okay, the dollar amounts are vastly disparate, but it is still illegal.

If HSA paid workers a decent wage, would this system still be around? More than likely. Will it ever get stamped out? Who knows. Is it a case of cause and causality, whereby tourists have created the situation of rollers selling cigars or as a consequence of the the influx of tourists?

All I know is, if somebody pulled this in my company... I cut, I cut you up so bad, y-you gonna, you gonna wish I no cut you up so bad.

Now where the heck did I put Smithy's number....

[LexG]

i see the point that it helps the rollers, but what about others involved in the process? the growers, the harvesters, the guy that drives the truck, the cleaner of the factory, is it taking money out of their pockets aswell? im sure picking up a few 5ers or a box doesnt hurt, but if 1000 people do that, thats a big loss, and you start hearing words like 'budget constraints' and 'restructuring'. its easy to loose sight of the big picture when there is a good deal, but sometimes the affects of a single transaction go beyond what we see in front of us

[Dara]

No weher the heck did I put Smithy's number....

Just remember not to ring him in work...texts only

[mk05]

It comes down to the stake we have in the game. I'd argue that most who visit Cuba come not for the people, but the experience and the commodity. It's probably a cool experience for those visiting to grab fresh cigars from the table without really contemplating the consequences. Simply put, those will view transactions such as mentioned as a pure business, "risk & reward" situation to the locals. As far as most are concerned, they are vending machines. If one is fired, surely another roller will take the same risk during the next visit.

Those who have been there multiple times, have developed a relationship with the locals, and see them not as a conduit for commodity. At that point, you wouldn't want to put your friend's life in jeopardy. Maybe they are willing to take on the risk. But you know better than to let them.

[stogieluver]

Hi Rob,

First of all, I'm a newbie, as you probably know. And I would like to say I'm so happy to have found your web site and the forums.

In response to your moral dilemma, with this particular situation, I have personal experience as well.

I'm a U S citizen, and I'm lucky enough to be married to a wonderful woman who let me book us on an unexpected opportunity to take a licensed trip to Cuba for our 10th wedding anniversary instead of one to Italy we had talked about for years. We can always go to Italy. I had this once in a lifetime opportunity to go to this mythical (for Americans, at least) land.

On the trip, we toured a rolling factory in the Pinar del Rio region. Like you, I won't mention which one. Before entering the building, we were told to ditch our cameras as pictures taken of the process were forbidden. When we entered the rolling room, one of the rollers, a young male, caught my eye and offered a bundle of what I am sure would be Cohiba Robustos to me for some amount. I wasn't quite sure how much he offered for the bundle because he was flashing a hand signal and I was a little shocked, I guess, that this was happening and became quite paranoid of being caught. I think he flashed a total of 20 fingers for the bundle that looked like it probably contained about 20 cigars. I was tempted enough to try to, in my mind, figure out how I could pull this off without ending up in a Cuban prison. The problem, as I played the process through my mind, was that there were 4 or 5 other rollers between me and him and process of passing the money and the cigars back and forth seemed impossible without others in my group and "supervisors" noticing the clandestine process. I waived him off with a slight shake of my head. I continued on down the line and about three tables down it happened again. And I again declined.

After reading your post, I realized it must happen quite often. And succesfully. I would assume that the money from the sale is split amoung some or all of the rollers, because others have to be involved in the process of passing the bundle and the money back and forth. I don't know how they work all that out, but I write it off to just more of the Cuban black market process that keeps so many of the people from starving to death.

The morality of the process is tough to judge in this situation. I get what you're saying, and I don't disagree at all that it is stealing. But who are you stealing from? You're stealing from a tyrannical government that is keeping its people in unimaginable conditions for most of the rest of the world. That would be my justification in moralizing my participation in the process, had I had the guts to do it.

[mk05]

Partly to blame is also the Cuban government as well. I mean, historically speaking, give me a society with low corruption where the real wages are low. None. Desperate people will always do desperate things.

[CigarmanTim]

Theft is theft whether it is $1 or $100. I'd like to think I would pass. I will tell you this and I believe this wholeheartedly....if you do something unsavory, it comes back to you. If you do something positive such as giving to a charity...it comes back at you in a good way. Call it Karma or whatever. Sounds corny but give from the heart without expectations and receive only in need.

[SCgarman]

Anytime you have a tyrannical government that oppresses it's people, you will have the elements of temptation and corruption implanted in it's society.

[El Presidente]

Corrupt Government...Tick.

Insidious System....... Tick

Need to survive ....... Tick

Don't get me wrong. I don't hold an iota of grievance to the rollers. I also don't think poorly of my house mates who partook. In my group they were all first timers to Cuba. It was my fault in not laying down the rules, expectation. I understand how shocked they would have been when they were approached repeatedly. "Is this normal?" "Is this expected?" "Is this Legal?" "Must be"

As I pointed out to them later....."I don't know of one legal transaction where the exchange of money/goods/services occurs in the toilets!"

If I wasn't so caught up having a conversation with a mate outside I would have seen what was going on earlier and simply said "Jose organised this tour, don't put him in a predicament".

So I was to blame as much as anyone else. If you organise something (or have someone organise it), then engage fully in what is going on.

[Fuzz]

Temptation and corruption are not limited to a society under a tyrannical government. Just look at any country in the world and you will find somebody with their finger in the pie. Office workers nick stationery, cashiers pinch from the till, tradies/mechanics/etc inflate invoices, pollies take a bribe or kickback.... the list goes on. Corruption isn't an isolated instance, it's bloody everywhere.

[CaptainQuintero]

Temptation and corruption are not limited to a society under a tyrannical government. Just look at any country in the world and you will find somebody with their finger in the pie. Office workers nick stationery, cashiers pinch from the till, tradies/mechanics/etc inflate invoices, pollies take a bribe or kickback.... the list goes on. Corruption isn't an isolated instance, it's bloody everywhere.

We even built a special fancy building for ours to keep them in so we could keep an eye on them, somehow the joke ran too long and we put them in power :S

[AlohaStyle]

I think mk05 has the most blunt and honest explanation. I think most newbies to the factories have heard from other people that it's possible to get freshies off the table and don't even think about what the consequences might be to the workers or supervisors. I think once people go a few times and develop relationships is where they realize they don't want their friends and fellow co-workers getting into any trouble, losing their jobs or worse, as well as to anyone that might have organized the tour.

I was in this boat... I knew enough from other people that you can easily get freshies and quite frankly, I was looking forward to getting a few myself, not really thinking it could be bad. Fortunately for me, a person I was with "warned" us all and asked that we not take any cigars because it would look bad for everyone and risk the people getting in trouble. Once I was "warned" about this, it totally made sense and I had no problem saying no. As you know Rob, people are literally begging you to take their cigars, I was quite shocked actually. I too felt embarrassed that a few people were blatantly taking cigars and leaving them out in the open, I wanted to distance myself from them when this happened. I too didn't think anything bad about them, but just that they weren't "educated" like I was...

So I totally understand not wanting this to happen, but keep in mind that a lot of people are going for the first time and are just so excited to be there, and knowing stories from buddies that they can get freshies, that they don't realize the "consequences."

[El Presidente]

So I totally understand not wanting this to happen, but keep in mind that a lot of people are going for the first time and are just so excited to be there, and knowing stories from buddies that they can get freshies, that they don't realize the "consequences."

I know my friend. Keep in mind I was talking about some mates of mine who got caught up in the frenzy. Top blokes one and all.

[investandprosper]

Absolutely not ... just as you said, if it were my business, I wouldn't want my employees doing that.

[hermit]

Moral Compass says it is wrong.

In another thread that was recommended to read it was mentioned that tours in these facilities may be stopped know wonder why, for sombody like myself that one day might make it over there to see it in person would be a one off trip and it would be a tragedy for this to happen.

Many other reasons have been put forward about the affects on business which in turn affects the employees and i can only agree that it isn't the right thing to do.

[demiurgic]

Disparate incomes create desperate situations don't they?

Now I remember from Rob's Havanathon vid that he mentioned something about paying one of the guys who was leaving and still guzzling his wine, $18 an hour, in his usual style.

Now that's pretty decent wage for shipping and handling departments yea? I'd say so.

And it does lead to a better work force, service, morale and eventually, PERHAPS self accountability is born within this Czar system which is not corrupt (not too corrupt ) and people see that everyone is being treated well, except Ken.

So, point being, this guy will think very hard before jeopardizing such a good situation right? Inside, he feels that his boss is treating him well, so he should do the same.

I'm guessing based on a single premise. People are the SAME no matter where you go. Our fears, ambitions and pleasures are quite similar based on my world travels.

Flip that situation around.

I am guessing that the severe disparity between the minute fraction of what those rollers make vs. their awareness of what these sticks sell for, creates this.....let's call it.... 'Lord of the Flies' style human survivalist reaction....

and your 'top mates' are in the same boat since they too are all too aware of how precious this commodity is their side of the world. Both parties are working from a basic basic place within.

In the end: I believe the responsibility lies with the employer and factory owner, their instillation of pride, their care and concern for their employees and rollers as humans first.

Guillermo Leon, owner of La Aurora cigars has a lovely bit in an interview on this exact subject. their have an entire facility to take care of their employees.

Day cares, schools, hospitals, all sorts of amazing "thanks for working so hard for us" situations.

The result is that several generations of Dominicans are proud to work there and their employee turnover is quite low, given their monolith size down there in the D.R.

So, Reap what you sow HSA

...we all have to, sooner or later.

[El Presidente]

Disparate incomes create desperate situations don't they? Reap what you sow HSA.

To be fair, HSA done not set wages. The Government sets wages. HSA couldn't increase wages if they wanted to.

[ptrthgr8]

Isn't everything in Cuba state-owned? I.e. the tobacco, the cigars, the rollers' collective labor, etc? And if that's true, how is it stealing if everything belongs to the People? If those sticks and everything that went into their state-controlled production belongs the the People, shouldn't he People be able to sell them to tourists for whatever price they deem reasonable?

Okay, somewhat tongue in cheek... but, still...

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

Sent from my HTC Thunderbolt using Tapatalk 2.

[headstand]

I would redirect the question away from the social justice and even the business discussion.

If I was to say that i make a comfortable living i would be lying through my teeth - I make a bloody great living! Still it surprises me how easily I succumb to that little green monster . This is the math I would propose: you make enough cash to enjoy an expensive hobby + you make enough cash to travel overseas + you have enough leftover cash to bring back your allotted number of cigars. How does that ever add up to the impulse to, as Rob puts it, do a deal in a bathroom?

I'm not saying that I take the high ground, I am saying however that there is a high ground. Thanks Rob for bringing that to my attention. May I become a better man for it.

Oh man, if my wife knew that a CC forum could help form my conscience, well who knows how much time she would make me spend here?

[Paul3]

It is theft. No matter how anybody can try to "justify" it. It is stealing, plain and simple. That is not to say I would not partake however. We all do illegal and immoral things on a daily basis. Yes, even you. Some of these immoral and illegal activities are worse than others however and we all need to bow to our own inner moral compass on the various points.

x2. I would have to agree with Shlomo. Though I am by no means always on the "what is right" side of choice it seems to me that any attempt at rationalization (ie. low wages paid, not really hurting the factory's profit overall, owners not instilling enough pride in their employees, etc.), simply boils down to a measure of two wrongs making a right.

To answer Rob's question if this were my business and I caught my employees selling my products behind my back they would likely not be in my employ much longer and I would certainly be weary of having visitors tour my factory again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

[demiurgic]

To be fair, HSA done not set wages. The Government sets wages. HSA couldn't increase wages if they wanted to.

Aha, the deeper problem. No legal moves there mate. Stalemate.

[lcdp01]

Those that say it is more or less ok, is it because it is socialist Cuba or would it be ok in any country?

I know no one came straight out and said it was ok but am guessing some are thinking along those lines...

It would seriously surprise me if a business owner thought it was ok to do onto another business even if it is a socialist structure..

Essentially I think the average Joe will not pass up on the chance to get something cheap or free... is unfortunately human nature especially in the western world.

Just the same as Cuba will not get better after democracy is declared but will probably get worse as the seed has already been planted and it will be unlikely that the scams, corruption will just disappear...