What's in a Name

[Colt45]

Why would HSA give up its corrupt monopoly?

If cigar production were denationalized, with tobacco farmers no longer having to sell their tobacco only to Cubatobaco - being able to sell

to other Cubans who wanted, and had the capabilities to produce cigars, would they have much choice?

[isa]

Dont mind cuban cigars from new companies as long as they are flavourful, complex & hopefully, more consistent Thats one thing that probably can be improved upon.

[PigFish]

Fidel no longer smokes his county's products.

When your country is run by central planners and those central planners have concluded that tobacco use is not good for you and takes an ostensible position that it should not be consumed, ask yourself, what will happen to the tobacco products it produces?

If Cuba at least had a dictator that was passionate about cigars again, we would have good products again! The fish rots from the head down!!! The decline of Cuban tobacco products is due to a lack of passion, vision and personal ability of those "party loyalists" that run the company.

When you find a shoe company that is no longer interested in making good shoes, what do they end up making? Bad shoes!!!

H SA and the Cuban government can go to hell! I am interested only in a great smoking experience for a reasonable sum of money. I don't care who makes it, the brand on it, the band on it, nor the box that it comes in. If they care less about their own heritage, why should I care?

When a company proves to no longer care for its oldest customers concerns, loyalty goes down the toilet. Loyalty is bilateral. One more good flush and the anus of H SA will be far out of my sight!!! PLEASE FLUSH, I am tired of being treated like crap!

-Piggy

[khomeinist]

If cigar production were denationalized, with tobacco farmers no longer having to sell their tobacco only to Cubatobaco - being able to sell

to other Cubans who wanted, and had the capabilities to produce cigars, would they have much choice?

I don't see Imperial allowing this to happen. Like I said, they are corrupt. I would love to be proven wrong.

[geneticdrifter]

Fidel no longer smokes his county's products.

When your country is run by central planners and those central planners have concluded that tobacco use is not good for you and takes an ostensible position that it should not be consumed, ask yourself, what will happen to the tobacco products it produces?

If Cuba at least had a dictator that was passionate about cigars again, we would have good products again! The fish rots from the head down!!! The decline of Cuban tobacco products is due to a lack of passion, vision and personal ability of those "party loyalists" that run the company.

When you find a shoe company that is no longer interested in making good shoes, what do they end up making? Bad shoes!!!

H SA and the Cuban government can go to hell! I am interested only in a great smoking experience for a reasonable sum of money. I don't care who makes it, the brand on it, the band on it, nor the box that it comes in. If they care less about their own heritage, why should I care?

When a company proves to no longer care for its oldest customers concerns, loyalty goes down the toilet. Loyalty is bilateral. One more good flush and the anus of H SA will be far out of my sight!!! PLEASE FLUSH, I am tired of being treated like crap!

-Piggy

Bitter are we? lol

Realistically, globalization is a ***** when combined with statistical analysis in marketing. Hype sells. The way we fight hype, and apathy mind you, is with education. We have to educate the base so they don't fall victim to the hype. In turn the statistical anomaly of HSA thinking the good stuff, what we like as connoisseurs, has a low ROI can be mitigated.

[laficion]

If Cuba at least had a dictator that was passionate about cigars again, we would have good products again! The decline of Cuban tobacco products is due to a lack of passion, vision and personal ability of those "party loyalists" that run the company.

When a company proves to no longer care for its oldest customers concerns, loyalty goes down the toilet. Loyalty is bilateral. One more good flush and the anus of H SA will be far out of my sight!!! PLEASE FLUSH, I am tired of being treated like crap!

-Piggy

Piggy,

I feel that you've gone to the other extreme.

I agree that all this is about Marketing, prices , what's in and what's out,today, tomorrow, next year etc etc, BUT, You are someone who loves cigars (Cuban I'm sure).

But You're talking about HSA as a mega cooperation, OK, but you don't know the people at least,the ones who really have the passion, I'm not talking about the big heads, I'm talking about the little guy who does it all, everyday and for just $20 a month........ That's passion !!!!.

When you're in Cuba, it's a different story.

The passion is always there and all around you.

Even under the Spanish domination,American domination,Castro's domination,With or without HSA, Tobacco Is embedded in it's people's culture and history , not because Fidel smokes or not.

No one in Cuba cares.

It's like a wine consumer talking about the lousy wine market around the world and then finding himself surrounded by a wine culture in a small town in Burgundy or another wine country.

You're not talking about the same things.

One talks about money and the other is talking about passion and the vines.

I can't say that HSA is the best cigar company around but they still have some ethics compared to some NC companies that lie about cuban cigars, mislead and mis-educate many of their smokers and don't even talk about the country or the people that grow their tobacco, just about their "cuban this and cuban that"cigars.

Piggy, I'm not defending HSA ,all I'm saying is that they are trying to keep pace with what they are told to do and then, the real world around them.

When you talk to the veguero on a plantation,or a worker in the fields, or a good roller in the factories, listening to them you know what passion is.

The Veguero is also very proud to sell his best to Tabacuba, Cubatobaco and HSA.

You have the right to say what you feel as a consumer but you have to look at the whole Picture not just the upper right hand corner.

With the consumer's end closed, they are just doing what THEY think you want. Some have been listening for years and others...........The ones that can really change things, listen to the call of money, that, will one day change.

The passion is still there Piggy.

As for us,the passionate consumers, well, I'm sure we'll survive and in comfortable shoes.

Ciao l'ami.

[BonVivant]

I'm surely not advocating the demise of HSA, but I'd definitely like to see open competition. And in my mind that would be Cubans already

involved in the industry in some way. I'm not so sure the end of the embargo would allow this to happen. I imagine it would take a change

in the current Cuban government, or at least an expansion of some of the recent regulation easing.

I recently read an article with one of the top brass of Louis Vuitton Moet Hennessy who tried to get the company to expand into Cuban cigars.

Though his boss declined, he's still interested in doing it on his own. He feels there'd be no problem with $60 cigars......

Fantastic!!!

$60 cigars are a thing of the past for HSA, Louis Vuitton/Moet/Hennessy might get away with $160 cigars...

Enrique Mons had been creating his "Monsdales" for a long time- the cigars are consistent for over a decade, so no problem seeing "new" lines from "new"? entrepreneurs

Great thread!

[Wil]

Piggy,

I feel that you've gone to the other extreme.

I agree that all this is about Marketing, prices , what's in and what's out,today, tomorrow, next year etc etc, BUT, You are someone who loves cigars (Cuban I'm sure).

But You're talking about HSA as a mega cooperation, OK, but you don't know the people at least,the ones who really have the passion, I'm not talking about the big heads, I'm talking about the little guy who does it all, everyday and for just $20 a month........ That's passion !!!!.

When you're in Cuba, it's a different story.

The passion is always there and all around you.

Even under the Spanish domination,American domination,Castro's domination,With or without HSA, Tobacco Is embedded in it's people's culture and history , not because Fidel smokes or not.

No one in Cuba cares.

It's like a wine consumer talking about the lousy wine market around the world and then finding himself surrounded by a wine culture in a small town in Burgundy or another wine country.

You're not talking about the same things.

One talks about money and the other is talking about passion and the vines.

I can't say that HSA is the best cigar company around but they still have some ethics compared to some NC companies that lie about cuban cigars, mislead and mis-educate many of their smokers and don't even talk about the country or the people that grow their tobacco, just about their "cuban this and cuban that"cigars.

Piggy, I'm not defending HSA ,all I'm saying is that they are trying to keep pace with what they are told to do and then, the real world around them.

When you talk to the veguero on a plantation,or a worker in the fields, or a good roller in the factories, listening to them you know what passion is.

The Veguero is also very proud to sell his best to Tabacuba, Cubatobaco and HSA.

You have the right to say what you feel as a consumer but you have to look at the whole Picture not just the upper right hand corner.

With the consumer's end closed, they are just doing what THEY think you want. Some have been listening for years and others...........The ones that can really change things, listen to the call of money, that, will one day change.

The passion is still there Piggy.

As for us,the passionate consumers, well, I'm sure we'll survive and in comfortable shoes.

Ciao l'ami.

Beautifully said Guy!

Like most on FOH, I'm dissapointed by recent deletions. However I don't think the views of those who bemoan ELs, REs and the current trend for larger gauge cigars is representative of the majority of the cigar buying public. All businesses have to move with the times, otherwise they go out of business!

[CaptainQuintero]

I wouldn't mind at all, if something tastes great and is free from additives I'll smoke it.

Personally though I don't think competition will open up beyond the odd peso cigar for cuban nationals. I just can't see any government (nevermind the cuban one) giving up a valuable monopoly asset just because there will be some slight political/economic reform. There just isn't any logic behind them doing it.

I just can't see that changing until the political system as a whole is started afresh, and I won't be putting any bets on that happening for a while.

I think the best anyone can hope for is 'new' brands being created and managed by people eg Hector Diaz, but HSA holding a controlling stake in the new brands.

[PigFish]

I respectfully disagree with many of you.

I feel that many in the west do not understand despotism. They don't live under it. The interference that government has in their lives has not made them prisoners of their own "island." As a result they see the strong and happy faces that they know as individuals in Cuba... and pronounce, "this is Cuba."

This may very well be Cuba when seen though the eyes of individuals, a segment I too would prefer to reference. But the Cuban government does not consider their one people individuals, they are property of the State. The Cuban people are not the owners of the State as the State proclaims. They have no power to change it.

Saying that the forces in the Cuban tobacco industry are "market driven samples of capitalism" as paraphrased my another poster is a simple and possible cause of the fall of the industry, but I don't believe it. In my humble opinion it is a widely believed, shallow and false belief. Some say that this is market driven because of what... the Cuban company has a marketing department? This is like saying that Al Capone was a legitimate businessman because he had an accountant!!!

Please... someone tell me exactly what is free market in the Cuban tobacco company! Just one thing!

Can the farmer decide what to produce and when? Can he freely negotiate labor for his crops? Can he select a crop different than the State dictated crop? Can he openly sell his crop to a global market? Can he demand a price that is different than what the State is willing to pay?

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

Lets talk a little about blaming H SA. Might I remind you all that Tabacuba, Cubatabac whatever they call themselves these days IS THE CUBAN CIGAR. H SA is only a marketing partnership. That partnership is minority owned by the private investor and MAJORITY owned by the Cuban government. My friend Guy quotes me and brings up the perspective of the individual. I am sorry to say, the individual is meaningless in this equation.

So who actually calls the shots?

Who calls the shots in North Korea? Who calls the shots in Venezuela? When Hugo Chavez found that his private oil investors did not do what he wanted he nationalized their assets! Do you guys really think that the Cuban tobacco company would really think twice about screwing the private partners in H SA? Are you that naive? These guys are scared stiff that if they do not do what the Cuban government partners tell them to do they will get screwed!

While I find bland fat cigars objectionable, I don't object to them. They have a following. Any cigar company should make them if they sell, and sell them for whatever profit margin suits them. But I think I see a bigger picture. Is the here and now all that you see or can you see a future for the Cuban cigar in the fat, high priced cigar market.

The deterioration of the product line is indication of a company in decline. The yearly loss in market production are signs of a company in decline. Stockpiles of tobacco, the layoffs, the plant cutbacks, these are indications of a company in decline. Are the private owners of H SA responsible for that? No not at all. I say again, who calls the shots as Tabacuba? It is not any investor. I'll bet a nice cigar that those folks are scared to death that in their dealings with the devil, the Cuban government, they will lose their investment and their rights to sell Cuban products if they don't do exactly what they are told.

Here is some non-fictional history that demonstrates exactly how the Cuban government deals with capitalists. Simply look at Cuban/US relations. Regardless of the pro or cons of the Cuban embargo it PROVES one tenant of my argument. The Cuban government is not going to be told what to do, nor how to do it by capitalist pigs!!! (Read with humor!) For 50 years the Cuban government has managed to "fly the bird" at what is arguably the strongest force on the planet, economic and otherwise! How is it that most of you cannot look beyond the simple and see that no one tells Cuba what to do. Cuba will take your money, but no one but the Castro brothers and their military oligarchy rule that state.

When you have successfully fended off the "evil capitalists" for 50 odd years, who actually thinks that for 500 million, from non-US based evil capitalists, you are going to take control of one of Cuba's biggest industries? Anyone really believe this? Anyone really believe that the Cuban government is allowing the minority partner "capitalist pig" investor to buy their power for 500 million?

The market may have driven the Cuban cigar company to produce fat cigars! Hurry for capitalism!!! But I'll be damned if one can blame the decay of the Cuban cigar on the fat cigar!!! The fat cigar is just a cigar. It is the fat communist that runs the company, the one that does not truly understand the depth and complexity of the free market that will kill the Cuban cigar. The destruction of the Cuban cigar catalogue is not because of the fat, profitable Cigar. It is due to management. No minority "capitalist" partner is doing this. Centralized planner states don't operate this way. I am sorry so many of you don't understand this. But this is reality.

Next time any of you wish to make this "market force" argument here, think about the Cuban government fending off the largest market force in the world for 50 years and ask yourself if you really think that they are willing to sell out their ideals for 500 million. If you think so, you know absolutely nothing of Communism and the despotic Cuban government. If you cannot understand the Cuban government, you cannot understand Cuban government industry.

-Piggy

[Colt45]

I respectfully disagree with many of you.

Ray, in my naiveté, it's as simple as a cigar. We can pound politics and government, but we must then be prepared for the repercussions.

Cubans may be forced by their government to do some things, I'm forced by mine (at least for now) to do things as well.

In it's history, if Cubans had never planted tobacco, let's say Bermuda were the grail of cigars, would Cuban politics be an issue for most us

us? I tend to doubt it.

By acquiring Cuban cigars, we support both the Cuban People, and the Cuban government - no matter how we might try to spin it in our minds...

[randomhero1090]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47019904

I mean, honestly. Does the embargo even make sense at this point? It seems to cause more problems than it is worth.

Last time I checked, we do a little bit of business with China.

[PigFish]

Ray, in my naiveté, it's as simple as a cigar. We can pound politics and government, but we must then be prepared for the repercussions.

Cubans may be forced by their government to do some things, I'm forced by mine (at least for now) to do things as well.

In it's history, if Cubans had never planted tobacco, let's say Bermuda were the grail of cigars, would Cuban politics be an issue for most us

us? I tend to doubt it.

By acquiring Cuban cigars, we support both the Cuban People, and the Cuban government - no matter how we might try to spin it in our minds...

My friend I am talking cigars, the cigar industry and the powers that control that industry. IMHO governments on all fronts are responsible for a decline in that business.

Narrowing of the Cuban cigar catalogue is IMHO responsible for less sales. The upscaling of prices is responsible for less cigars. The closing the loop to newer buyers, who typically want a lesser expensive product to introduce them to the product line is responsible for less sales. These are management decisions and someone is making them. Some say it is market driven and I say it is mismanagement. The choice, or combination of any factors is yours to make.

We are talking Cuban cigars so we talk Cuba and their communist government because the Cuban government owns all of Cuba and all its industries.

Here is one to shake you up. The US government is responsible for the non-Cuban cigar market!!! How do you like that one? If it were not for the embargo, the non-Cuban cigar makers would not have a protected market to get a foothold. This in my mind is corporatism and every bit as anti-freemarket as communism. Governments of all kinds have totally "F'd" up the entire tobacco industry. There are no innocent parties when it comes to my criticism of governments. At least I am not put in prison for my criticizing my own.

Smoke that one!!! -LOL

Cheers, my friend! -Ray

[Colt45]

We are talking Cuban cigars so we talk Cuba and their communist government because the Cuban government owns all of Cuba and all its industries.

Granted Imperial is the marketing arm (HSA), but they knew who they were getting into bed with. Though they might not like some of

what has transpired since they bought in, I find it hard to believe that their cash has not been fuel, so I can't see how they could

be absolved.

No doubt the embargo is well past any significance it might have once possibly held, but as it relates to cigar production outside of Cuba,

perhaps it in some way helped an industry which produces cigars that many enjoy, which might not have existed, or perhaps would have taken

longer to become viable otherwise.

Perhaps I'm a glass half full kind of guy....

On a side note, though I'm not big on sharing personal information....

I am a first generation American. Both my parents left countries oppressed by communists. I can pretty much guarantee that there is nobody

here that can educate me on the pros and cons of communism....

[partifan]

I would love to try the blend Don Pepin described of mixed Nica-Cuba filler, Cuban binder, Cuban wrapper. I would love to see microbatched Cubans if that meant a small plot could be devoted to the old corojo leaf. I don't want to put a farmer out of having the whole crop be susceptible to disease, but an acre of corojo to go into 1000 boxes might be feasible.

I really like some of the smaller marcas. While Partagas and Upmann are my 1 and 2, SLR and Ramon Allones are my 3 and 4.

[canadianbeaver]

I have a question for the panel. With Cuban vs non-Cuban so similar that they can often not be told apart unless you really look closely:

If the market did open up and the embargo lifted,

1.What would happen to these duplicate brands

2.What would prevent a massive influx of cheap replicas even more than now and worse problem with fakes, only on the open market?

[PigFish]

Granted Imperial is the marketing arm (HSA), but they knew who they were getting into bed with. Though they might not like some of

what has transpired since they bought in, I find it hard to believe that their cash has not been fuel, so I can't see how they could

be absolved.

No doubt the embargo is well past any significance it might have once possibly held, but as it relates to cigar production outside of Cuba,

perhaps it in some way helped an industry which produces cigars that many enjoy, which might not have existed, or perhaps would have taken

longer to become viable otherwise.

Perhaps I'm a glass half full kind of guy....

On a side note, though I'm not big on sharing personal information....

I am a first generation American. Both my parents left countries oppressed by communists. I can pretty much guarantee that there is nobody

here that can educate me on the pros and cons of communism....

Some reading don't have our "relative" experience. I post and discuss this over and over for newer members. Older members continue to discuss their perspective. So will I.

This is a forum. We have challenged each other, not just you and I, but as a group to discuss ideas and perspectives. Many people are blind to what exists around them. Anyone that says they are not I will take at face value. I am not arguing with "you," I am openly discussing a point in public. We are challenging each others concepts and perspectives. Nothing in this is personal or unilateral.

If I have "miffed" you over the point of common ignorance over despotism, more specifically communism, please understand that this was not intentional, meant to be an insult, aimed specifically at you and I apologize for it. Preaching and teaching is my intent! I admit it. I am an anti-communist!!! If you see my approach to responsibility as spin... that is okay by me. I believe in the peaceful discourse of differing opinions.

Over the course of many years talking on this subject I have found that many have little or no knowledge of this topic. I offer an opinion, one can do their own research on the topic and decide for themselves. I have found that unless someone like me offers an opposing view point one is never made. Many people with my views have been conditioned to fear speaking frankly about despotism for the fear of being labeled a McCarthyite or other such terms. I have long lost that fear.

For the record, my family fled central Europe.

Mates?

-Ray

[mazolaman]

Well, I'm glad we established we all like each other.

We share a persecution complex Piggy, I often thought I was fighting an unrepresented corner when many US based members bemoaned Cuban politics.

You are correct, many of us do not see the world beyond our noses. Or what we are told.

Anyway, as to the original question.

My great fear regarding the inevitable changes are the need for never ending growth required of more western style companies, gotta keep those share holders happy!

For me, I fear that would lead to intensive farming practices, with more lovely growth chemicals and the like.

Over here, Aberdeen Angus beef from Scotland is considered a pretty good standard of beef.

The irony is, that when down here in England we were adding food supplements and other crap to our animals and feed, up in Scotland they didn't go in for it, and now their natural product demands a higher price.

This is my fear for the over industrialisation of Cuban cigars, as one happy result of the embargo is the fact that such chemicals were not freely available to Cuba, so our cigars remain pretty natural.

[Colt45]

If I have "miffed" you over the point.....

Ray, no....

Unfortunately, it seems my "tone" has lost something in translation - it's a risk we all take at times by "speaking" to each other via the 'net.

Honestly, the only reason I bring up my own personal experience is that (from the start) I'd hoped to avoid the political side, as much as it

might be possible in this scenario. And anyway, who cares if I might get miffed about anything....

Lisa, Altadis U.S. is owned by Imperial, so their overlap brands shouldn't be much of an issue. Who know's what they'll do - they could conceivably

have a brand x dominican along with the Cuban, for example.

As for the General cigar brands that overlap, as it's been discussed here in the past, it is surmised that money would change hands and everything

be worked out beforehand. Who's to know for sure....

[mazolaman]

BTW....my family came over from Scandanavia,about 1100 years ago, in big long boats, where they raped and pillaged, as was the fashion in those days.....sorry about that.

[mk05]

Again back late, but such a good discussion I can't stop from posting. Apologies in advance for ranting.

It's all speculation as to what really happens in the inner workings of HSA and Altadis right? My perspective was, as stated previously, that if Cuba was to take on a partner with understanding of globalized market economics, they would (hopefully) heed any advice gleaned, and act upon it, rather than denouncing it and doing, as you suggest, "what Cuba does."

Perhaps Cuba found through Altadis' data analytics that in the last x amount of years, popularity of slender cigars have gone down, and certain marcas and sizes are becoming marginalized, whether by the breadth of lines offered, or general irrelevancy through time. So what must management do when you have all this inventory? Do you spend your cash to try resurrect dying trends in times which are globally difficult for the industry overall, and most likely continue to deteriorate? Or do you try to centralize your efforts into your "core" products? This is a key management decision. I would hate to think that someone just says, "this is what Cuba will do."

My take on what management decided is that, if a certain product is cut in the Habanos portfolio, given its cult followers, the remaining inventory will be taken off the market rather furiously. It's the best marketing tactic - it's free. Narrowing down a portfolio doesn't directly mean less sales. Just because Cuba stops making Trinidad Robo Es doesn't mean I'm not buying cigars anymore. I'm buying something else...cigar smokers will always buy more cigars. I don't think I've ever found one CC smoker who has said, "well GD it, no more SdCs, I'm done with this nasty habit." They've bought every single box of SdC's fiscally possible, tried something different, and moved on. Look at the past 5 years of cuban tobacco. I would have to say that there has certainly been a comeback in quality. Entire portfolios of Montes, Cohiba, VR, RA, and others, on the whole, have really been exceptional. And look, cigars are a luxury item. In any bad economy and exiting such inertia, people usually trade down, like a great restaurant to your neighborhood bar & grill. Of course it's been hard for this industry. No one's responsible for that (maybe Goldman, let's not go there) - it's not just Cuba.

I would speculate it is in fact the case Cuba and Altadis are trying to find an equitable solution which benefits them. It's not like they are making new standard lines which are fat ring gauge (RG) cigars. The fat RG cigars have all been ELs, not at all permanent. Moreover, the ELs provide a great snapshot of what's relevant at that point in time - a trend. I believe that we will certainly see slender offerings for the company to analyze the trends. For example, look at the recent offering of the Escepcion lanceros, amidst all the skinny slashings. They probably used that to gauge the marketability of a brand resurrection and skinnies. If management was so obtuse as you suggest, why wouldn't they have made another canonazo?

So yes, I am a glass half full type of guy, and I think they've done the best they can in the situation given to them. Who knows, maybe in 10 years we'll see a trend resurrection of my beloved Laguito #2, and see cigar books of that.

Exceptional thread by the way, I love reading different schools of thoughts about this and other general insights.

[PigFish]

BTW....my family came over from Scandanavia,about 1100 years ago, in big long boats, where they raped and pillaged, as was the fashion in those days.....sorry about that.

OH MY GOD... I JUST FOUND MY LOST 15TH COUSIN, once removed by pillage and rape!!!

I never said I liked you!!! -LOL (I am just kidding of course) -Ray

[CanuckSARTech]

BTW....my family came over from Scandanavia,about 1100 years ago, in big long boats, where they raped and pillaged, as was the fashion in those days.....sorry about that.

LOL. Well played.

[Colt45]

Just because Cuba stops making Trinidad Robo Es doesn't mean I'm not buying cigars anymore. I'm buying something else...

I think that's just it - some of us just won't buy something else. I'm a fan of the SdC line - I won't replace them with BHKs.

I'm a fan of the Bolivar Corona Extra - i won't be replacing them with anything.

VR Clasicos......

Available funds notwithstanding, I'll just acquire fewer Cuban cigars.

Until competition opens up

[PigFish]

I think that's just it - some of us just won't buy something else. I'm a fan of the SdC line - I won't replace them with BHKs.

I'm a fan of the Bolivar Corona Extra - i won't be replacing them with anything.

VR Clasicos......

Available funds notwithstanding, I'll just acquire fewer Cuban cigars.

Until competition opens up

Decisons to buy are based on available choices. Many people would be pissing and moaning if the RASS, the PSD4, CoRo and several robustos were canned over a several year period. And while I don't smoke these cigars, I would rally behind you. You see, I like to have choices.

You buy something else because there is more that you like to buy. Colts point is my point as well. Sure I will buy Monte Esp 1's and 2's but what replaced the 15 or 20 sticks that I loved, that can't be matched in taste? I don't have a lot of options. Like Colt, I don't buy!!!

Someone called me bitter! Yes, in a way but I am laughing my way through bitterness. I have enough cigars to last my lifetime. H SA has increased the value of my cigar hoard many times and it gets more valuable every year. I don't need more cigars. I buy cigars to insure my smoking future, to experience new vintages, to share with others. Funny.... I don't really care for myself as much as others. You newer people are the people who have been cheated, you are ones that will not get the experience of smoking some of these cigars unless you get raped by a collector and buy some of his.

H SA's decisions have made my purchases over the past decade make me look like a wise-man! That would be if I had a collector mentality. I don't. I share my thoughts on cigars as I have shared my cigars. There are dozens of people on this board I have sent cigars to just because they said that they wanted to try one! I do that less and less now because I cannot replace what I send. Bitter! I am not the loser here, those of you who are newer to this Cuban cigar smoking thing... you are the losers here. You just don't know it yet! You are happy smoking homogenized robustos, God bless you. Someday you might want to experience what some of us have enjoyed and raved about but you won't be able to.

Tabacuba is falling into and using the Soviet GAZ auto model for cigar choices. They are telling you, "Ignorance is bliss." I don't believe in this theory where you will get one choice and like it! If you guys like this model, so be it. You are their best customer now, they might as well pander to you, not me. But when their model takes your favorite cigar out of circulation and they cut overall production yet again; please come back and reread this thread!

A good business model requires finding new customers and allowing experienced ones to mature and change as their tastes change; to change back again and again if they want to. I will continue to fight the mindset, of less is good enough, as long as I am a member here. This lack of choices thing is a huge mistake. Mark my words! This buy less for more model will kill cigar smoking!

-Piggy