Wil Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 I think there's a number of people on FOH, not just or necessarily on this thread, for whom the terms "respect" and "constructive criticism" don't seem to be registering. As I've looked back on threads from the past six months, it's something I've really noticed from some newer members, and some original/older members as well. There's a....TONE to some posts and thoughts. While there might not be outright insults or stuff like that, there's stuff being wrote "between the lines". If someone puts something out there, and people criticize it, the nice way of writing stuff isn't being followed. Terse terms and tones are being used. I notice this a lot in the ShoutBox also - it's being used like a frathouse conversation point lately, with vulgar conversations and crass comments about anything and everything. TRUST ME, I'm anything but an alterboy or a collar-buttoned-up extreme conservative about things. But things are just getting a little bit too disrespectful, personalized, cheap-shot'ish, and playground child-like. Well said Keith - my thoughts exactly. One of the great things about FOH is the civility and respect people show toward each other. It would be a shame to see that change.
PigFish Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 I am probably one of the last ones to comment on civility of the site. I have managed to be a site curmudgeon to almost the day the site was founded! Yet, I think both Keith, Wilkey and some others have decisively hit the head of something here. There is always an option not to comment at all! What happen to, "I don't think this will work because... or I think this might be better if....?" Think gentlemen when the last time someone could have tied a tin can to your tail and have a little empathy. TB- a word of advice to you as well. Just stick by your guns and do what you are gonna' do. You don't need to get involved with a back and forth if you don't want to and frankly sometime pandering to some people is not a good idea. You had to know that you might put yourself in the crosshairs here with this one. Live with it! I do it everyday when I deny taste profiles, sick periods and bash the EL program and the Cuban government!!! Lots of people disagree with me as they have done here with you. We have a lively chat and go on. There is not one of them that I would not sit down and have a cigar with! In '06 (I am testing my memory now, don't hold me to the date) you would not believe the 'FOG's' going at each other when the rumor of Cubans using heat sources to help cure tobacco started! You should have heard it all. I heard it all and then some! "The Cubans are cooking tobacco now! The cigars will smoke good now but will not age! I am not buying them! Cigars will never be the same! Etcetera... etc...!" Many people took sides, most don't even remember or would deny the side they took today! People, good and bad folks alike are not gonna' agree. Not agreeing alone, does not make any of us, either good or bad folks! I don't see bad folks here. Some bandwagoning was bound to happen but it appears to be done now. Don't let it dissuade you from your quest. Someday someone may be reading your acclaimed book on tobacco processing and be glad to know you, harshly denying that he was your first critic, now quoting you as if your words were gospel. Cheers mate. -Piggy
Ginseng Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 Oh gosh, I had almost forgotten about the "cooking" controversy. Wilkey
Bunner Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 I work in the food industry and we use that stuff all the time. Does magic to flaovurs... never thought of smoking it. This should be interesting.
Smallclub Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 I work in the food industry and we use that stuff all the time. Does magic to flaovurs... never thought of smoking it. This should be interesting. Yes, its name in the industry is E621. BTW, This product melts at 232° C (450° F), then how could you smoke it? AFAIK, the temperature of burning tobacco is much higher… but I guess that at this point in the discussion it's just a detail raised by a curmudgeon ...
PigFish Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 Yes, its name in the industry is E621. BTW, This product melts at 232° C (450° F), then how could you smoke it? AFAIK, the temperature of burning tobacco is much higher… but I guess that at this point in the discussion it's just a detail raised by a curmudgeon ... ... I thought about this myself. Makes me wonder what temp it vaporizes, or if it is combustible? Food for thought... artificially flavored food for thought at that!!! -LOL
Van55 Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 Congratulations to the OP for thinking "outside the box." That said, the problem with these experiments as with all similar experiments is that there is no calculable measure of the result. Taste cannot be quantified and is, by its very nature, personal and subjective. Accordingly, the results, though perhaps interesting, will of necessity be meaningless. And that leaves aside other issues such as sample size, control sample, generalization of the alleged results to samples other than JLPs etc. etc.
Figaro Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 Looking forward to the results Temp. Nice of you to take the time and experiment this.
Fuzz Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 Personally, I find the idea of artificial aging a little disrespectful to the cigar. I liken it to pumping hormones into animals. In this day and age of instant gratification, we forget that patience is a virtue and good things come to those who wait. Yes, the frustration of waiting can be torturous and the temptation to hurry along the process is strong... but it can also be very rewarding when that patience is paid off with a fantastic tasting cigar. If artificial aging did actually produce the same results as normal aging, wouldn't the manufacturers already be doing it? On a slight diversion from the topic, this idea of instant gratification is just another sign that society is heading down the long sloping path to destruction. I'm all for moving forward and finding newer ways of doing things, but it must be tempered with patience. All that being said, this is just my opinion. Good luck on your experiment and try not to get riled up. Firing off hasty comments every time some disagrees with your view just engenders more ill will. And it goesboth ways. If you disagree, so be it, but it doesn't give you permission to abuse whoever you disagree with. We all need to show a little respect and civility to each other, no matter what are views are. Btw, I think I've figured out what FOG means... it's "Friends Of Guantanameras!"
tempbond Posted October 6, 2011 Author Posted October 6, 2011 Personally, I find the idea of artificial aging a little disrespectful to the cigar. I liken it to pumping hormones into animals. In this day and age of instant gratification, we forget that patience is a virtue and good things come to those who wait. Yes, the frustration of waiting can be torturous and the temptation to hurry along the process is strong... but it can also be very rewarding when that patience is paid off with a fantastic tasting cigar. If artificial aging did actually produce the same results as normal aging, wouldn't the manufacturers already be doing it? I have to agree with you on this. But I wouldn't be surprised if HSA knew about this (IF it does work...)and just decided not to do it: wouldn't be their first weird decision ! A way to make more money, I'd think the would be all over that ! On a slight diversion from the topic, this idea of instant gratification is just another sign that society is heading down the long sloping path to destruction. I'm all for moving forward and finding newer ways of doing things, but it must be tempered with patience. All that being said, this is just my opinion. Good luck on your experiment and try not to get riled up. Firing off hasty comments every time some disagrees with your view just engenders more ill will. And it goesboth ways. If you disagree, so be it, but it doesn't give you permission to abuse whoever you disagree with. We all need to show a little respect and civility to each other, no matter what are views are. I didn't know I was being that much of an ass, sorry if I went overboard. Like someone suggested, I could have just not responded to comments I didn't "like". I can be a bit of a hot head... Btw, I think I've figured out what FOG means... it's "Friends Of Guantanameras!"
laficion Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 my main question would be what are you using as a control - that is, what will you be comparing the test cigars to at the end of the experiment? Yes,that would be THE main question for me also.
PigFish Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 While we are all in on the subject of control I have to play devils advocate with the bunch of you. What do you use as CONTROL when you claim your Habanso are coming along nicely? You claim to use memory of a, or the, past cigars you have smoked from the same box! Why is it that his memory of his cigars is not good enough for his 'experiment' yet your memory is good enough for your aging experiments? Why does he need evidence and control when you (rhetorically) have made the very same statements that the previously poor performing cigars are getting better by some form of miricle that you (rhetorically) refer to as aging and no one asks you to prove it? Because you (rhetorically) are in the majority, you go right along claiming the proof of personal experiments everyday... with no control I might add, and no one bats an eye! While I am not here to insult people, nor set them straight, but where is your (a rhetorical statement again) proof that cigars age at all???? This is not to take this guys thread and start an argument over the matter. I did not step up to say age has no effect on cigars. I am only stating that his evedence is as good as yours or mine! None of us, can prove ****, and we should endeavor to keep that in mind as we (collectively) chip away at him! -Piggy
Smallclub Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 "But I wouldn't be surprised if HSA knew about this (IF it does work...)and just decided not to do it: wouldn't be their first weird decision !" Cubataba (and not HSA*), soaking cigars in E621???? Are you serious? :surprised: Puh-lease people… *HSA markets all cuban tobacco products, it doesn't roll cigars…
TonyV Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 I also was thinking about the control issue. Not so much about what he would compare it to, as he stated a fellow BOTL was giving him some aged cigars to compare but to the fact that only he would be smoking these cigars. As i stated previously i wouldn't mind trying the freezing part of the experiment with Hoyo#2's after he posts his results.I think i will then send 1 cigar to 6 different members this way we can get a few reviews. As for whom i choose i will pm moderators for advice,look through old LFTH's for Epi #2 purchases etc.. Just want to add 2 things,first i'm old school i like my humidor to age my cigars and will only try this once,secondly re-read the first thing.
Colt45 Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 I am only stating that his evedence is as good as yours or mine! With this experiment or any other, how will we know if there is any difference if we don't compare the test cigar(s) to something?
Puros Y Vino Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 I've been wanting to chime in on this for a while. First off. I like the idea and I'm looking forward to the results. Now on to the matter of control. I think we all have to accept that this whole experiment is heavily qualitative and subjective. Results are going to be based solely on TB's taste buds. From your plan TB. Found 8 identical cigars (Jose L. Piedra Cremas) which I separated in 4 groups of 2: Cigars 1-2 : high temperature, low humidity Cigars 3-4 : one month in the freezer at -17.9°C/0°F Cigars 5-6 : MSG added Cigars 7-8 : control group, left in my main humidor with the remaining cigars of that box I propose the following. You should provide two control cigars to compare against your three, what I'll call "conditioned", cigars. So a total six control cigars. If you're trying to gauge the effect of the experiments you'll need to smoke four per test. The results will be qualitative of course. Take plenty of tasting notes and decide how you will pace yourself when doing the taste tests. Definitely keep your pre smoke consumptions the same otherwise something you ate or drank prior may affect your taste test. Your test may look like this. Smoke the two control cigars over time & take notes. Smoke the two "conditioned" cigars over time & take notes. The duration is solely up to you. Ideally, a test where you're able to measure the composition of the cigars in a lab would be far more "scientific" but the question is. What the hell do you look for that could empirically prove / disprove the effects of the "aging" processes? On your blog you write: It is believed that during the fermentation process of tobacco leaves, MSG is formed and that's what in part gives a deeper flavor to the tobacco. The longer the fermentation or curing of the tobacco, the more MSG there will be and so more flavorful cigars will be produced. Now that would be something to look for! You'd need to be a chemist though. I will make one prediction on results though. At the end of this. You're either going to love Jose L Piedra Cremas or despise them!!
tempbond Posted October 6, 2011 Author Posted October 6, 2011 "But I wouldn't be surprised if HSA knew about this (IF it does work...)and just decided not to do it: wouldn't be their first weird decision !" Cubataba (and not HSA*), soaking cigars in E621???? Are you serious? :surprised: Puh-lease people… *HSA markets all cuban tobacco products, it doesn't roll cigars… Maybe I haven't made this clear in my previous posts, but I think that only the high heat treatment will in fact change the taste of the cigars. So If HSA (or Cubataba...) decided to do this, it wouldn't be with chemicals, but in my opinion, just a post-roll curing of the tobacco. Why would curing the tobacco before rolling be ok, but not if you do it afterwards as well?
tempbond Posted October 6, 2011 Author Posted October 6, 2011 To everyone wondering to what I'll compare the test cigars or how I will quantify the results: I just want to know if any of the three methods improves the taste of the cigars as regular aging does: so I will compare "non-modified" cigars from the same box that are still in my humidor to the test ones. I will also compare the taste to the "real" aged cigars that SeeGar from CA forum is sending me. If the test cigars who were exposed to a particular method taste the same as the real aged cigars, then that method of artificial aging is valid. If the taste differs for the better or worse, I will note that also. I will agree that the results are purely subjective, the test sample very small so that the end results will not be scientifically valid, that I am the only one tasting the cigars and that I might not have the best palate out there. But all of you are forgetting something very important: I'm doing this for MYSELF and sharing it with you. It was never my purpose to conduct a real study nor to brain wash anyone into doing any of this to their cigars. I'm having fun doing this and wanted to share it so you could have FUN with me, not start a controversy. If you think that this is stupid or not done the right way or how YOU would do it, you can always do this experiment yourself with YOUR parameters and share the results with all of us. Maybe someone with more and/or better cigars to use and stricter methods of testing will have solid, reliable results that everyone will agree with. That would be great ! But until then, I'll continue doing what I'm doing and JUST HAVE FUN, LIKE I DO WHEN I SMOKE A GOOD CIGAR ! TB
Puros Y Vino Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 To everyone wondering to what I'll compare the test cigars or how I will quantify the results: I will agree that the results are purely subjective, the test sample very small so that the end results will not be scientifically valid, that I am the only one tasting the cigars and that I might not have the best palate out there. But all of you are forgetting something very important: I'm doing this for MYSELF and sharing it with you. It was never my purpose to conduct a real study nor to brain wash anyone into doing any of this to their cigars. I'm having fun doing this and wanted to share it so you could have FUN with me, not start a controversy. If you think that this is stupid or not done the right way or how YOU would do it, you can always do this experiment yourself with YOUR parameters and share the results with all of us. Maybe someone with more and/or better cigars to use and stricter methods of testing will have solid, reliable results that everyone will agree with. That would great ! But until then, I'll continue doing what I'm doing and JUST HAVE FUN, LIKE I DO WHEN I SMOKE A GOOD CIGAR ! TB Easy there TB!! There's a lot of us who are behind you on this. :thumbsup: From my points, I made a few suggestions on control quantities. Take 'em or leave them. As for my comments on the subjective and qualitative aspects, I was trying to make that clear to all what to expect. The tests are still valuable as long as you as the "taster" also maintain some "control" on what you do before you smoke the samples. I.e. Don't eat a burger before smoking the control and then some spicy Thai food before you smoke an "aged" cigar. Cheers, good luck and enjoy!
Trevor2118 Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 "While I am not here to insult people, nor set them straight..........." -Piggy To whom it may concern. Who are you?.....what have you done to the real Piggy? Trevor.
PigFish Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 To whom it may concern. Who are you?.....what have you done to the real Piggy? Trevor. Who died and allowed you the right to question me??? -LOL Does that make you feel better Trev? I am working on my civility and political correctness. It must me this womens underwear that I am wearing... pastel pink I think!!! -the Pig
Puros Y Vino Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 I didn't think I said anything that could ruffle anyone's feathers... No ruffled feathers. Just clarification. If anything I thought I ruffled a few.
tempbond Posted October 6, 2011 Author Posted October 6, 2011 I deleted my last post because I edited it and wasn't happy with what I wrote. Frank, I know you're a good guy (Riaz is a friend) so everything's ok
Puros Y Vino Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 I deleted my last post because I edited it and wasn't happy with what I wrote. Frank, I know you're a good guy (Riaz is a friend) so everything's ok It's all good. No offense taken, really. I've been on this Internet thingy long enough to know not to always trust the tone of the written word. I've taken some flack here for an "uncommon" notion in the past and brushed it off and quite honestly enjoyed the fray. So. Do your thing on this experiment and don't let anyone deter you.
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