Julian Assange

[Fuzz]

Rob & Mods, feel free to delete this poll if you think it's a little too controversial or discussion gets a bit too heated.

We've all been hearing about Wikileaks and Julian Assange. What do you guys think about him?

Personally, I think he's an irresponsible little ****. People say it is embarrassing only to the government officials and they deserve it anyway for making those statements. What happens if you embarrass the likes of Nth Korea's "Dear Leader"? You think a mentally stable individual like him will shrug it off with a little chuckle?

Do governemnts need to show accountability? Sure, but I don't need to know every little detail.

Do I really care what an ambassador thought and reported back home about a foreign politician? Not in the slightest. Do I care that America asks its ambassadors to gather intel about politicians? Care? I bloody expect an ambassador to collect intel! That's one of the reasons why they are there.

One of the leaks I've been hearing around the office was the Apache gunship attack footage. Was it horrific? Of course. Did the pilots intentionally fire on civilians? Absolutely not. They believed them to be insurgent reinforcements. Did I need to know? Possibly. Was it unexpected? Not at all. It is a warzone where it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between a hostile and a civilian.

I don't know, may be it's just me, but what Assange is doing is not right.

[El Presidente]

All individuals are flawed and I am sure Assange is as flawed as any.

Overall, on the issue of the leaks and unless I am mistaken I cannot see anything that has been released which detrimental to national security of any nation. Embarrassing perhaps but dangerous, no. I am guessing that before anything is released it is highly scrutinized. The minute an informer gets pulled out of bed in Iraq and shot as a result of one of the leaks is the day Assange and his pirateers go to prison. Rightfully so.

Laurie Oaks made a great point (Oakes is one of our leading Australian Media reporters). He has been "leaked" classified information for more than 30 years. He assesses it and if he believes it to be in the national interest he publishes it. Should he go to Jail for doing so? If your answer is "Yes" then he would be in Prison now.

The docs released to date were the property of a Government, leaked/stolen by a servant of that government.

He/she faces the rath of the law.

The "Leaks" have shown a need for tighter security. Governments can fix that. However, is there really anything revealed to date which is against the public interest? Is not Government representative of the public, paid by the public?

I think much more good than harm has come from it. I don't see Assange as anything on the poll so I have not voted. I have a gut feel he is part media *****, part evangellist, part egotist. He did not steal the information. He published it. If you are going to jail him then we had better build a hell of a lot more jails for Journalists around the world who have been doing the same thing for a long time.

You have to love the internet as a medium for dispersal of information.

Just to finish. The leaks have embarrassed many governments, leaders, public servants. It is not simply a US issue and nor should it be.

[mm12]

I'm not entirely sure what I think of him, but I do think the type of information that he can actually get should be more public. I do think some things need to be kept secret, but these are the type of things that only maybe 2 dozen people would even know about, and they wouldn't be sitting on some web server somewhere.

The type of information Assange publishes is already known by thousands of people. If the powers that be can afford to be that loose with the info, it's best to not keep it from the public at large IMO.

[Montaigut]

Wikileaks, and Assange, are nothing more than a symptom of today's fractured societies. At the end of the day it all comes down to lack of trust; the us/them mentalities. Elected officials no longer trusted by their constituents to walk the talk. Big business, globalization, class warfare, religion, stock markets, financial bubbles, "news" outlets, immigration, political landscape management, lobby groups, smokers vs non-smokers ( ), etc. to name a few have all become the new symbols of today's battlegrounds. There is precious little space left anymore for meaningfull discourse, exchange and tolerance on just about any subject you can think of. Much of this of course comes from ignorance and apathy (I don't know and I don't care is the typical reply)

As a result the more governments and organizations will try to control and censor information, the more likely it will be leaked. Efforts to close Wikileaks are sure to prove futile. It is like trying to get a balloon in a box: push on one side, it will only pop out somewhere else.

The Assange episode hides the real issues: the personnae has nothing to do with the underlying problems. And that is probably why he is made into such a big thing, sexual accusations true/false notwhitstanding. Old trick used by magicians: distract the audience...

Trust me on this!

[bolivr]

I support what Assange has done and seeks to do from the point of view of freedom of speech and publication in the public interest.

I doubled my support when our prime minister said he had broken the law, which was not true and particularly disappointing as she has a well regarded background as a lawyer.

Beware of people in power who seek to silence those who point out that the emporer has no clothes on!

[brutusthebuckeye]

Wikileaks, and Assange, are nothing more than a symptom of today's fractured societies. At the end of the day it all comes down to lack of trust; the us/them mentalities. Elected officials no longer trusted by their constituents to walk the talk. Big business, globalization, class warfare, religion, stock markets, financial bubbles, "news" outlets, immigration, political landscape management, lobby groups, smokers vs non-smokers ( ), etc. to name a few have all become the new symbols of today's battlegrounds. There is precious little space left anymore for meaningfull discourse, exchange and tolerance on just about any subject you can think of. Much of this of course comes from ignorance and apathy (I don't know and I don't care is the typical reply)

As a result the more governments and organizations will try to control and censor information, the more likely it will be leaked. Efforts to close Wikileaks are sure to prove futile. It is like trying to get a balloon in a box: push on one side, it will only pop out somewhere else.

The Assange episode hides the real issues: the personnae has nothing to do with the underlying problems. And that is probably why he is made into such a big thing, sexual accusations true/false notwhitstanding. Old trick used by magicians: distract the audience...

Trust me on this!

I'm with ya on this !!!

[dicko]

Wikileaks 'rap news' - funny... "Hillary Clinton, how does it feel to get leaked on?"

[winelover]

I feel sorry for him as he is literally the subject of a witch hunt and is going to no doubt have to fight extradition to the US. It will be interesting to see what they try and stick no him though. He cannot be a traitor as he is Aus and he is clearly not a spy in the sense that he did not himself lift primary source information. I am sure they will try and find a way of making a charge stick, but the fact that they have taken so long already may be indicative of the trouble they are having in finding a way to prosecute him. Also the Swedish sexual offence charges sound like absolute nonsense. I always wonder how someone can know they were raped even though they were asleep and the very fact they are lying next to the person in bed (probably not wearing much) was in no way suggestive of the fact that they consented to sex. Also seems fairly ludicrous that someone consenting to sex can then say that as the condom split it now turned in to non-consenting sexual assault fo a serious enough nature to warrant extradition. Also I cannot believe some US politicians are comparing him to Al Queda and suggesting the appropriateness of the death penalty (a non-runner as any EU state would not extradite to the States to face a capital penalty).

[bassman]

If there is a traitor it is the US soldier who actually leaked the classified info, not Assange for publishing them. Once leaked, they are no longer classified. That a low ranking soldier in the US military had access to all that stuff is the real scandal.

[Torontonian]

Congressman Ron Paul's comments seem apposite here.

[thechenman]

All individuals are flawed and I am sure Assange is as flawed as any.

Overall, on the issue of the leaks and unless I am mistaken I cannot see anything that has been released which detrimental to national security of any nation. Embarrassing perhaps but dangerous, no. I am guessing that before anything is released it is highly scrutinized. The minute an informer gets pulled out of bed in Iraq and shot as a result of one of the leaks is the day Assange and his pirateers go to prison. Rightfully so.

Laurie Oaks made a great point (Oakes is one of our leading Australian Media reporters). He has been "leaked" classified information for more than 30 years. He assesses it and if he believes it to be in the national interest he publishes it. Should he go to Jail for doing so? If your answer is "Yes" then he would be in Prison now.

The docs released to date were the property of a Government, leaked/stolen by a servant of that government.

He/she faces the rath of the law.

The "Leaks" have shown a need for tighter security. Governments can fix that. However, is there really anything revealed to date which is against the public interest? Is not Government representative of the public, paid by the public?

I think much more good than harm has come from it. I don't see Assange as anything on the poll so I have not voted. I have a gut feel he is part media *****, part evangellist, part egotist. He did not steal the information. He published it. If you are going to jail him then we had better build a hell of a lot more jails for Journalists around the world who have been doing the same thing for a long time.

You have to love the internet as a medium for dispersal of information.

Just to finish. The leaks have embarrassed many governments, leaders, public servants. It is not simply a US issue and nor should it be.

Pres...this is quite well thought out and I agree with some of what you have said here, but I have an issue with your justification of Assange in only one respect. While you are correct in stating that Assange did not steal the information from the source, and that he merely published it...Assagne did know that the information was not obtained legally (i.e., he knew that it was stolen). Knowing this he still chose to publish it claiming that the world had the right to know. Come one...really? While most of us live in the free world and have the freedom of speech and expression, we all know too well that this freedom is often abused and used inappropriately.

What is the real difference between what Assange did with this information and a thief that steals something (jewels, artwork, electronics) and gives it to someone else. Then the individual who knowingly recieves these goods, knowing that they were obtained illegaly, turns around and gifts them or sells them to someone else. In the real world that person is just as liable in dealing in stolen goods and would be put in jail, as should Assange. What he did was wrong...whether or not anyone believes he did real harm or not.

That said...I'm not against whistleblowers...sometimes they are needed. But in this case, with what he divulged...I think not. He is a glory seeker, plan and simple who needs to be taught a lesson before he does something truly damaging.

[thechenman]

If there is a traitor it is the US soldier who actually leaked the classified info, not Assange for publishing them. Once leaked, they are no longer classified. That a low ranking soldier in the US military had access to all that stuff is the real scandal.

That statement is not entirely true. Yes, once Top Secret information is stolen and leaked, it may not be classified anymore, in the sense that it is out there, but that does not mean that it is no longer considered classified information. The soldier is culpable, but so is Assange.

[Montaigut]

Come one...really? While most of us live in the free world and have the freedom of speech and expression, we all know too well that this freedom is often abused and used inappropriately.

I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. ~James Madison, speech, Virginia Convention, 1788

[thechenman]

I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. ~James Madison, speech, Virginia Convention, 1788

It's a double-edged sword and a fight for balance...I don't disagree with that. However...

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

- Thomas Jefferson

[Montaigut]

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

- Thomas Jefferson

In the context of this discussion I believe the tree of liberty will do best under the shining light of truth.

Nuff' said

[shrink]

Completely apart from what one might think about Assange's political and philosophical beliefs... he's a foolish risk-taker who invites retaliation. This guy is going to end up dead, believe me.

[bassman]

Completely apart from what one might think about Assange's political and philosophical beliefs... he's a foolish risk-taker who invites retaliation. This guy is going to end up dead, believe me.

The way he's going- probably from VD.

[Ken Gargett]

my first thought reading the poll categories is that there are 7 options, 6 of the alternatives being anti-JA and only one for. just a touch skewed, perhaps?

leaving aside what he has done and whether you are for it or not, this surely does just confirm what absolutely soulless lying scum all politicians are.

is there a single one who has come out of this with their reputation enhanced?

is there a single one you'd trust more (or even simply trust) after this? and if not, then hard not to think that what he has done is a very good thing long term. not that things are ever likely to change.

perhaps if we had a better class of politicians, and fat chance of that happening, we wouldn't need the leaks.

[Ken Gargett]

[quote

That said...I'm not against whistleblowers...sometimes they are needed.

problem with that is, you can't pick and choose your whistleblowers.

[El Presidente]

Pres...this is quite well thought out and I agree with some of what you have said here, but I have an issue with your justification of Assange in only one respect. While you are correct in stating that Assange did not steal the information from the source, and that he merely published it...Assagne did know that the information was not obtained legally (i.e., he knew that it was stolen). Knowing this he still chose to publish it claiming that the world had the right to know. Come one...really? While most of us live in the free world and have the freedom of speech and expression, we all know too well that this freedom is often abused and used inappropriately.

What is the real difference between what Assange did with this information and a thief that steals something (jewels, artwork, electronics) and gives it to someone else. Then the individual who knowingly recieves these goods, knowing that they were obtained illegaly, turns around and gifts them or sells them to someone else. In the real world that person is just as liable in dealing in stolen goods and would be put in jail, as should Assange. What he did was wrong...whether or not anyone believes he did real harm or not.

That said...I'm not against whistleblowers...sometimes they are needed. But in this case, with what he divulged...I think not. He is a glory seeker, plan and simple who needs to be taught a lesson before he does something truly damaging.

My only question is can you draw a parralel between Deputy Director of the FBI William Mark Felt, Sr secretly feeding government documentation to Woodward and Bernstein? Should Woodward and Bernsein be prosecuted for publishing that classified stolen information?

As much as I am suspicious of Assnage's charachter, I think that an extradiction and prosecution would send a shiver through every serious journalist in the world.

[Ken Gargett]

My only question is can you draw a parralel between Deputy Director of the FBI William Mark Felt, Sr secretly feeding government documentation to Woodward and Bernstein? Should Woodward and Bernsein be prosecuted for publishing that classified stolen information?

As much as I am suspicious of Assnage's charachter, I think that an extradiction and prosecution would send a shiver through every serious journalist in the world.

if the usa thinks it is getting bad press over the leaks, that would be nothing to to what it would get if they dragged him to the states and prosecuted him.

personally, i lived there and loved the place but if the usa thinks that it has the right to act in that manner, then i'd lose an enormous amount of respect for the place and, reluctantly, i suspect i would soon find myself on the side of those opposed to the states in any way. i would be so utterly appalled at the arrogance of such an action. it would beggar belief.

does the states really believe that they are so superior that they can perform such actions without reprisals, in whatever form they may they take? do they want to become a pariah state and lose those allies they still have? because for me, actions like that would go a long way towards it.

what's next? goose steps and concentration camps?

let's hope that sanity prevails.

[El Presidente]

Ken, I assume no more than you would condem the Australian Prime Minister for calling Assange a "Criminal" and supporting extradiction and prosecution? Australia would also be a Pariah state?

It goes without saying that we separate people from the actions of their government. I think we are both in agreement that Governments are contol freak morons who cannot be trusted with issues which relate to "Freedoms".

"Freedom"is the antithesis of "control" to which the vast majotrity of governments aspire.

[SethG]

if the usa thinks it is getting bad press over the leaks, that would be nothing to to what it would get if they dragged him to the states and prosecuted him.

personally, i lived there and loved the place but if the usa thinks that it has the right to act in that manner, then i'd lose an enormous amount of respect for the place and, reluctantly, i suspect i would soon find myself on the side of those opposed to the states in any way. i would be so utterly appalled at the arrogance of such an action. it would beggar belief.

does the states really believe that they are so superior that they can perform such actions without reprisals, in whatever form they may they take? do they want to become a pariah state and lose those allies they still have? because for me, actions like that would go a long way towards it.

what's next? goose steps and concentration camps?

let's hope that sanity prevails.

When you grow up in the US you get to hear this kind of stuff constantly, we're constantly being judged and it usually begins with phrases like "doesn't have the right" and "I'll lose respect for..." and since we're a superpower we'll get the usual "arrogance" and "believe they are superior." And it all comes back to whether or not we're going to lose more fairweather allies.

It's the same old garbage every time and it gets really old. The US is a sovereign nation, we'll do as we please without any need to play it out in the court of international opinion.

[El Presidente]

Every country has the right to run its own program.

* Japan can hunt wales.

* China can enact religious persectuion and human rights violations.

* Hugo Chavez can Nationalize what he wants.

* Iran can build nuclear reactors.

* If peole vote for the Taliban then they can have them.

I say let every country keep their noses out of everyone elses. Lets forget the whole Allies thing altogether, keep our own councel, take all troops home, run up trade barriers, allow IP piracy to run rife, block all extradictions to anywhere.

That should make for a better world.

The US gets kicked more than it should. It's Government however does have a knack of repeatedly shooting itself in the foot. I like to separate the actions of a Governmentt from its people. Having travelled the US extensively over 20 years you can't define it in catch cry slogans. Nor can you define any other country same. Each has a rich layered tapestry so complex and generally good.

As for "Fair weather allies" that is a tad harsh If an Ally is a proven mate then they have the right to speak openly on issues of disagreement. Of course pre "leaks" this would be done behind the scenes.

Just because I disagree with a mate on a point doesn't mean I take my bat and ball and go home. Close relationships are built on years of trust and working together. You can be disappointed on an action but it is not a relationship breaker.

[Ryan]

The US is a sovereign nation.

Absolutely, but it's not the only one.

I think Assange did the right thing, his motives might be questionable but so what. The US is not the only country embarrassed by the most recent releases.

A government is elected by us to represent us, we must be able to hold a government accountable for its actions. How is that possible without knowing what their actions and opinions are.

On another forum there are members calling for Assange to be killed for his leaks, then happy to use information from his leaks to make their own argument.

I can't see extradition happening. If the US can find anything to charge him with, which is unlikely, it would be espionage. Espionage does not generally fall under extradition rules. Also, for extradition to happen, what Assange did has to be considered a crime in both countries, the one that has him and the one that wants him. Again, not very likely.

Assange is doing the job that investigative journalists should be doing.

It's in all governments' interests to keep secrets from their populace. It is the role and the responibilty of the investigative journalist (in this case that falls to Assange) to find and release them.

There were people doing the same thing before him and there'll be more after him.

The internet has simply changed the playing field a little.