Julian Assange

[El Presidente]

[quote name=

In relation to Assange it just may be the case that US allies say prosecution is a step too far. They may be bloody right! It is a time for cool heads stepping back into clear space and consideration, contemplation, discussion. It is certainily not a time for enactment of Sovereign right sentimentalities. It will end up in a hell hole.

in other words, let's hope sanity prevails. which is pretty much what i said a squillion posts ago.

i agree with most of your previous post (except of course the tawdry attempt to justify censorship of ideas, namely by deleting me) except this -

"The world holds the USA/UK/Canada/Brittain/France/Italy/Switzerland/Sweeden/Japan/Holland etc (including Australia) to a higher set of accountabilities." we may hold ourselves to what we believe are higher standards, or think we do (and it may be wiser to say different standards rather than higher ones). but i think the rest of the world would be a smidge offended at that. travel through the mid east or africa or asia and they don't see us, the uk or the states (no offence meant here but i suspect one could say especially the states) as any beacons on the hill. there are of course specific exceptions but in general, life goes on and what the states or us etc, is pretty much irrelevant.

With all due respect, I disagree.

The countries listed above/I should day Governments (and many others... hence the etc) believe in democratic freedoms, the right for daughters to be educated, daughters to be free from circumcision, corrupt free trade, religious freedom, a non caste system segretating a portion of society to irrelevance, non military rule, nationlisation without recompense of private companies, freedom of non hate speach, a life without the threat of governmental stoning/amputation/execution for infedelity or marrying someone of another faith/ I would go on.

If we do not see ourselves "above" those countires then we should throw the towel in now. I couldn't give a flying fig should those countries be a "smidge" offended.

[Ken Gargett]

With all due respect, I disagree.

The countries listed above/I should day Governments (and many others... hence the etc) believe in democratic freedoms, the right for daughters to be educated, daughters to be free from circumcision, corrupt free trade, religious freedom, a non caste system segretating a portion of society to irrelevance, non military rule, nationlisation without recompense of private companies, freedom of non hate speach, a life without the threat of governmental stoning/amputation/execution for infedelity or marrying someone of another faith/ I would go on.

If we do not see ourselves "above" those countires then we should throw the towel in now. I couldn't give a flying fig should those countries be a "smidge" offended.

well aren't we selective in who we can offend!!

but what you have said was my point - we see ourselves as above them - my quote was "we may hold ourselves to what we believe are higher standards, or think we do (and it may be wiser to say different standards rather than higher ones). "

i'm certain you and i think that many of the norms/laws/traditions/even 'religions' "enjoyed" by those other countries are wrong/horrendous/tyrranical/whatever. but if we decide to unilaterally impose our views on them, are we any better than what i might think of the states imposing its view (the 'we'll do whjat we want' attutide that i, for one, find appalling) in believing it has the right to drag a citizen of another country there to be tried/jailed/shot/whatever?

surely education, aid, assistance, information etc is a far greater weapon?

your attitude pertaining to the flying fig is probably just as offensive (and may i say arrogant and antagonistic) to people in those countries as i found the 'we'll do what we want' attitude expressed earlier.

[El Presidente]

well aren't we selective in who we can offend!!

but what you have said was my point - we see ourselves as above them - my quote was "we may hold ourselves to what we believe are higher standards, or think we do (and it may be wiser to say different standards rather than higher ones). "

i'm certain you and i think that many of the norms/laws/traditions/even 'religions' "enjoyed" by those other countries are wrong/horrendous/tyrranical/whatever. but if we decide to unilaterally impose our views on them, are we any better than what i might think of the states imposing its view (the 'we'll do whjat we want' attutide that i, for one, find appalling) in believing it has the right to drag a citizen of another country there to be tried/jailed/shot/whatever?

surely education, aid, assistance, information etc is a far greater weapon?

your attitude pertaining to the flying fig is probably just as offensive (and may i say arrogant and antagonistic) to people in those countries as i found the 'we'll do what we want' attitude expressed earlier.

Comes down to your core values. In the examples I listed simple Human rights. Put more succinctly: Respect and Decency.

I don't respect any country which abhores the simple tenet of individual respect and decency. That is a personal opinion.

The breach of those two words can be seen in my listing of acts by "countries held to a higher accountability" which most would see as abhorrent.

"Arrogant and Antagonistic" as it relates to sysems of religion/government that crush basic values of Human Rights, Respect and Decency? I plead guilty.....and couldn't give a flying fig.

and yes the standards are "higher....not different".

Just my opinion.

* and as it applies to Assange.

I probably wouldn't like the bloke if I spent time with him. However right now I cannot see how he has committed a crime any more than Laurie Oakes has reporting on document leaks he has published in the Australian Newspaper (or any other journalist for that matter).

I would be appalled if the Australian Government would not provide every assistance to block his extradition should the US government apply (which they haven't as far as I am aware). It shouldn't get to that stage. Unfortunately we have the weakest Australian Prime Minsiter since Billy McMahon.

[Ken Gargett]

[quote name='El Presidente' date='Dec 23 2010, It shouldn't get to that stage. Unfortunately we have the weakest Australian Prime Minsiter since Billy McMahon.

very harsh on mcmahon. at the very least, he had a hot wife.

[Montaigut]

Wouldn't that just prove the old saying that when the US cries jump Australia always asks how high?

Get in line Australia, or are we going by alphabetical order?...

[Montaigut]

Rob and Ken, this isn't the first time you're having this conversation now is it?

[Ken Gargett]

Rob and Ken, this isn't the first time you're having this conversation now is it?

everything is well rehearsed in advance.

it is only when someone strays from the script that posts get deleted.

[jjdolphin]

"Australia is getting bad press but it can get worse.... if you guys think you have the right to act in that manner.... I'd lose *enormous* respect for your country... I would find myself opposed to Australia in any way.... appalled at the arrogant actions of your country (or actions I speculate you might undertake at some future point) ....does your country really believe it's so superior it can treat people that way without reprisal.... do you want to become a pariah state and lose what allies you might still have.... what's next (Nazi) concentration camps and (Nazi) goose stepping? (You mean the Nazi's that we spent nearly a half million American lives on stopping???)"

You could use that exact line on our Asylum immigration policy. Many people internally and from around the world are.

I would rebutt it with a counter argument or I could tell all to mind their own business as we are a sovereign nation. One leads to dialogue and understanding (I didn't say agreement) and the other really adds little.

FOH is a community revolving around cigars but where discuss many topics of interest. Insult has never been tolerated but broad discussion of topics (excluding US politics) encouraged. Wikki Leaks is an international issue. Extradition is an international issue. We are an international forum.

While I found Kens post extreme I don't know anyone outside the US who loves the place more. Attacking a government is not attacking its people. I found the argument blurred but he can clarify if he wants to.

Just my 2 cents Seth and no intent to offend.

I would like to remind SethG that we have in the past put people in camps. Ask the older Japanese, the older Germans and Italians that still remember those glorious days.

Ask the natives about the fantastic reservations they call home.

Cuba not only has fantastic cigars, but also the 'summer' retreat called Camp Guantanamo.

El Presidente sounds like a true American founding father. Cheers.

[jjdolphin]

Fair argument.

However "Airing a dirty laundry list" is what political journalists do every day in media around the world. They embarrass politicians (with leaked information) and on the rare occassions the embarrassment is bad enough it may lead to policy change/resignations/end or harm political careers.

I still can't for the life of me see where this is different except on scale? If he is prosecuted for it what danger does it put journalists in? If he has had no hand in procurement of the information (theft) but it landed on his PC....surely it is open game as long as the information does not lead to the physical harming of any individual? He is still open to civil charges of defamation but I don't see a line up of peole chasing that line which says something in itself.

This is what makes the issue of Wikki Leaks so intiguing. A core questioning of what the right of "Freedom of Information" is. I don't see it as a bad debate to have at all.

Assange is a foreign national, airing out documents stolen by an American GI. US law persecutes the thief not the the whistle-blower. We have no right reaching over the pond and apprehending a foreign national. Allowing our Government to do these thing in our name is, well....un-American. I guess we then do deserve what we get, full body scanners, molesting security pat downs, cell phone GPS tracking, warrent-less wiretapping.....Oh yeah, one more, and most important thing, confiscation of cigars. What freedom?

[Habanos2000]

Assange is a foreign national, airing out documents stolen by an American GI. US law persecutes the thief not the the whistle-blower. We have no right reaching over the pond and apprehending a foreign national. Allowing our Government to do these thing in our name is, well....un-American. I guess we then do deserve what we get, full body scanners, molesting security pat downs, cell phone GPS tracking, warrent-less wiretapping.....Oh yeah, one more, and most important thing, confiscation of cigars. What freedom?

I don't believe the US has requested JA to be extradited, have they? Just mere sabre rattling to scare him a bit and that doesn't bother me, you ask for trouble when you poke a bear. I firmly believe he's out more for his own glory than anything about making the politicians of the world more transparent in their behavior.

As far as body scanners, they don't bother me; pat downs, haven't had the pleasure yet; cell phone tracking, I'm not concerned; wire tapping, they can if they want but they'll lose interest pretty quickly; confiscation of cigars, hasn't happened to me but is probably the one point I'd be most concerned about. All these issues are more like boogey man stories than anything else. The only people that should be worried about these measures are the people that have something to hide.

[Wil]

Julian Assange is so yesterday... It's all about the St Kilda Schoolgirl.

[dicko]

The only people that should be worried about these measures are the people that have something to hide.

Or people that enjoy some privacy and personal freedom in their lives.

[dicko]

Julian Assange is so yesterday... It's all about the St Kilda Schoolgirl.

hahahaha hell yeah. I don't like this "leak" at all, I don't want to see Nick Riewoldts c*ck all over my facebook.

[Ken Gargett]

Assange is a foreign national, airing out documents stolen by an American GI. US law persecutes the thief not the the whistle-blower. We have no right reaching over the pond and apprehending a foreign national. Allowing our Government to do these thing in our name is, well....un-American. I guess we then do deserve what we get, full body scanners, molesting security pat downs, cell phone GPS tracking, warrent-less wiretapping.....Oh yeah, one more, and most important thing, confiscation of cigars. What freedom?

agreed.

and for the record, i have not the slightest problem with the states imposing whatever penalties they deem appropriate upon the GI.

[thechenman]

Looks like Julian has inked a book deal with a $1.5M advance to tell the WikiLeaks story. Cha-ching. The cashing in begins...