More Speculation by Mr. Piggy


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We have long argued about where the Cuban cigar industry is going and why it is going there. This is along the lines of the where and the why I believe that it is going there.

I know you guys are probably tired of my political ranting. Lord... there was a day I would not pick up a political topic on a cigar board to save my life but since we have been able to debate some of these things with openness and disagreement without insult I have begun to take part. This is a political post as well, even though it is more specifically about our shared passion; the Cuban cigar.

So why are Cuban cigars loosing market share to that of the rest of the world? One can make several arguments and I am only going to look at one aspect without regard to the rest of which there are many, I am sure.

I believe that the Cuban cigar, perhaps short of the Cohiba line is without much individuality and personality.

We have all discussed our vision, or perhaps illusion of the "Zzyzx" profile. Zzyzx is of course my "theoretical" brand and does not otherwise exist. You could likely strip away all the individual branding, and while most of us could identify the smoke as of Cuban provenance, we could not accurately identify what the cigar is, or what it is supposed to be, brand-wise. Cuban brands are of course nothing more than myth these days! Take a double bling taste challenge. I have. I think I could identify 3 out of 11 cigars. I did better than most of my friends and out of the group that tested the cigars there was likely 200 years of smoking experience represented. This was no back yard group either; experienced worldly smokers from around the globe! Fun stuff, and a great experience and experiment.

So back to my hypothesis. I believe that that the decline in the Cuban cigar industry is due to the aged old debate of capitalism verses nationalism. Why do I say this? I have noticed over the years, especially since the inception and the waves of discontinuations, that cigar individuality is going the way of gun rights. I told you it was political!!! Cuban cigars are becoming more homogenized. Not that I don't appreciate the fact that cigars are getting better out of the fresh box, but I tend to miss the variation of cigars and more noticeable characteristics and personalities. I think the individual cigar with its unique personality is all but gone. As we move toward a two brand Cuban cigar market, Cohiba and Montecristo, this trend will likely continue and get worse than it is now.

Without some means of knowing what you are rolling, wearing your company logo'd t-shirt proudly as you work, knowing why your brand of cigar is better than the one rolled in the factory next door, there will never be the driving force and brand pride that is found in a private company. While I still believe that the Cubans grow the worlds best tobacco, I also believe that a nationalized company has not the means nor motivation possessed by a private company. Now don't read this as the Cubans have not the skill or the will. It means that without brand loyalty, without knowing what you are growing, harvesting and rolling; why it is better than the cigar being made by your competitors, there will likely only rarely be certain cigars with a truly recognizable superior personality. Those clearly better or different than another Cuban brand company. This is of course only my opinion.

What say you to this? Does the individuality of private labels and single product companies have, or would they have, any effect on the Cuban cigar? Are brands just bands or do they still mean something to you. To me they are little more than bands and boxes.

Cheers, and thanks for reading! - Mr. Piggy

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Piggy just to clarify.

So why are Cuban cigars loosing market share to that of the rest of the world?

I didn't know they were. Would love to have your source for the info. Global sales dropped in 2009 but so did the sales of every other premium cigar producer.

To the topic.

No real argument albeit I can in blind challenges taste the difference between a Cohiba Robusto, RASS, BORC, D4, JL2 from 2006/7/8. I struggled to differentiate the last four in 2003/4 and early 05. Not sure why.

I am a Huuuuuuuuuge believer in one house factories where pride and passion can flourish. However it is unlikely to occur in the short term. This is not solely due to the regime. Remember the great cigars of the 70's, 80's and 90's? ....all rolled under a communist banner.

Partagas, Romeo y Juliets, Upmann, Cohiba, Montecristo, Bolivar, Por Larranaga, HDM etc all need to be strong, unified and proud houses. You should be able to walk into Upmann and see Upmann people, rollers, tea ladies talk about how proud they are of Upmann.

I see good to great cigars every day. Roughly 25% of the total we see. I smoke fresh/young cigars every day to get a line on what is happening. There is so much rubbish intermixed with genuinely good stock that it brings everything down. A pure disgrace. Still, there are people in the Factories producing stellar work in terms of uniqueness (blend) and construction. I know Piggy you are not trying tarnish them as they do not deserve it. Your general observation holds.

Capitalism is no panacea for the Cuban Cigar industry. One of its worst periods was just before Fidel where they produced a ton of cheap crap for the US and European markets.

The solution for quality and uniqueness is independent ownership and competition. However where in the world are we seeing these features occurring? Competition is being crushed in industry after industry as the big get bigger. I question whether Capitalism in its final form encourages diversity at all. Habanos is rampant Capitalism but it isn't limited to them. Remember the old Miami LGC Maduro Wavels? try the pale imitations of today under multinational ownership.

I will make you a promise amigo. When Cuba opens up and legally allowed, I will with others I love and trust develop a boutique brand. Not big, maybe 400,000 cigars a year. They will not be cheap but they will be unique and a mirror to the soul of the people involved. I see no other way of balancing personality/character and quality.

I look forward to having you on the finca with me for a week at a time :clap:

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I believe that the Cuban cigar, perhaps short of the Cohiba line is without much individuality and personality.

Piggy, I have frequently read this assertion, often from people whose experience and palate I respect. But frankly, this is not my experience, at least from vintages 2006 through 2008. To me, Partagas taste like Partagas, Upmanns taste like Upmanns, and Bolivars taste like Bolivars. I find that the differences are further accentuated with a few years of box age. No homogenization as far as I'm concerned.

So what's going on here?

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Great post.

It does seem logical that without the Cubans actually knowing what they are rolling, there is the possibility for little pride to be taken in the work; this is especially true since no one will get rich in their system. In my inexperience in habanos, I have however noticed variation in flavor profile, but probably not what it used to be.

Politicians will be politicians and we cant really expect anything to change in the way HSA manages the industry.

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I will make you a promise amigo. When Cuba opens up and legally allowed, I will with others I love and trust develop a boutique brand. Not big, maybe 400,000 cigars a year. They will not be cheap but they will be unique and a mirror to the soul of the people involved. I see no other way of balancing personality/character and quality.

Now that is something to look forward to!

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Piggy, to some extent I agree with you. But in terms of individuality of a brand, I think Habanos could start with marketing.

I know most of us don't give a shite what a cigar looks like. But I think, having discussed this topic a lot over the last year on FOH, we can all draw the conclusion that we are in the minority.

How can Habanos start building individuality in order to consolidate and increase their market share? Start by putting some decent looking bands on the cigar.

Why do Sancho Panza or Rafael Gonzales have such a minuscule market share? Answer number 1 - because they look like ****.

I think increasing the presentation of Cuban cigars will be the first step in developing better individuality.

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If the assertion that lack of individuality between brands is in fact true... then I'm the biggest sucker here. I've bought similar vitolas from all my favourite marques and select what I will smoke based on a number of variables - namely my mood, what I have eaten and what I'll be drinking.

Maybe like the "Force" within a Jedi... the "Placebo" is strong in me.

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Interestingly Rob, my hit rate when blind tasting my own cigars is much higher than blind tasting cigars provided by someone else.

My turf, my storage/provenance/environment. My taste/brain has associated the flavours partly resulting from those specific conditions (3 months to a year stored in such conditions) to that cigar.

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I am still fairly new at this compared to most of you guys (only 3 or 4 years into Cuban cigars) but I don't see a total homogenization at all. I think a Bolivar tastes almost nothing like a Cohiba and Cohiba taste nothing like Partagas. There are some "brands" that are closer to taste than others and I doubt I would fare very well in blind taste where I had to identify the "brand" but I could tell you in most cases that a cigar from Brand X was definitely different from a cigar from Brand Y in a blind test. That said, when you look at Non-Cubans, I certainly could not tell you that Cigar A was a Fuente, Cigar B was a Padron, Cigar C was a Tatuaje, Cigar D was an Ashton, Cigar E was a Rocky Patel, Cigar F was a Davidoff, and Cigar G was an Oliva in a blind tasting and I doubt many Non-Cuban "experts" could get any more than one or two correct from a large sampling either. All cigars are made of the same thing, rolled tobacco, and there is only so much that you can do to make two "brands" of cigars rolled from tobacco from the same country and region of that country taste different.

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One important aspect of Cuban cigars,I think, is the "terroir",in that there is something in the soil there that makes unbeatable cigars.

I've smoked a few non cubans,and like the Nicaraguans,but they do not quite match the Cubans.

I smoke mainly Bolivar,Partagas,and Hoyo,and I can tell the difference between all of these.

When me and the wife were last in Cuba,we noticed the locals were excitedly waiting for the boss to pop his green hat,so they could get on with the business of capitalist greed,I do not know what the feeling there is now,when little has changed.(I felt a sad twinge of sadness that they would all soon be getting shafted,like most normal folk in the capitalist system,and all the free healthcare,dental care etc would go).

Maybe they would be better off,but I doubt it.

My point being,when wandering round the Partagas factory,the workers were just getting on with their job,like the rest of the world,maybe they cared a bit maybe they didn't,but I don't think they will be making the big bucks when their system changes.

However,when the USA are legally allowed to import their cigars,I think the average quality worldwide will go down,as the quantity required rises.

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I fore one will defend the definitive marca characteristics. There is an undeniable distinction between Ramon Allones and Partagas. But there are similarities as cigars age. Most notably creaminess, rancio, and a succinic character develop or become clearer over time.

I don't know what the volume of tourist going through the factory tours now, but imagine when American Tourists add to the tally. There has to be a sense among the workers when they see tours travel through their work, that must instill a sense pride. If I had tours come through my office, I would have to wonder what the nostalgia is, but it would be clear that there is a desire to learn my craft, which in turn would instill a sense of pride.

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I keep hearing about brand homogenization from fairly experienced smokers, but my experience at least with 2006-2009 stock has not been the same. Bolivar, H.Upmann, Partagas, Le Hoyo, Ramon Allones are to my tastes distinctively different taste profiles.

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Good point about storage conditions, Prez.

I have tasted cigars from friends collections that tasted totally unlike mine. In fact, some of them were box splits that we shared and the cigars ended up tasting nothing like they did.

But back to the issue at hand, as an experiment I think I could remove the bands from the 7 or so differently branded robustos I have and get more right than wrong.

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Good point about storage conditions, Prez.

I have tasted cigars from friends collections that tasted totally unlike mine. In fact, some of them were box splits that we shared and the cigars ended up tasting nothing like they did.

But back to the issue at hand, as an experiment I think I could remove the bands from the 7 or so differently branded robustos I have and get more right than wrong.

What we require my friend is Australia's first Cigar Masterclass.

A three day weekend with the first one on the Sunshine Coast (or Fraser Island) North of Brisbane. Book out a small hinterland resort, a little golf or fishing (depending on individual interests), possibly a cigar roller, blind tasting, wine tasting, great food.

May or September 2012?

If there is interest I will get it underway.

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Double blind tasting out of the stock of another will be a real eye-opener for most smokers. I suggest anyone with confidence in his tastes or a strong opinion about Cuban cigar consistency to give it a try. It is an interesting experience to say the least. -:rolleyes:

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Double blind tasting out of the stock of another will be a real eye-opener for most smokers. I suggest anyone with confidence in his tastes or a strong opinion about Cuban cigar consistency to give it a try. It is an interesting experience to say the least. -:rolleyes:

I enjoy doing these tastings Ray and it does expose (not that its a secret here) inconsistency.

However, I have found that if I provide 4 cigars that the cigar can be (ABCD) then the experienced guys are batting 75%. Proviso is it must be stock 3 years or less otherwise it blows out to around 50%

The simple seeing of the list of cigars to choose from ( ie written down) makes a big difference. Brain association is a remarkable thing.

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What we require my friend is Australia's first Cigar Masterclass.

May or September 2012?

If there is interest I will get it underway.

What are you waiting for? Book it please, Sir.

Anywhere from mid 2010 onwards is good... But I'm not rooming with Ken. :rolleyes:

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It is possible that a lot of this apparent blurring of marca style has to do

with the abandonment of the classic criollo and corojo strains during the mid-late '90s.

There were years of experimentation with many newly developed strains

which had increased resistance to blue mold and other problems.

Some were quickly abandoned, others were more slowly replaced.

Remember the virtually non-inflamable Habanos 2000 wrappers?

It seems that a lot of factors coincided starting in late '05,

including the introduction of more successful tobacco strains,

the introduction of draw testing machines,

the influx of capital from Altadis,

the deliberate build-up of properly fermented and aged stocks,

and a general attention to quality production.

While the torcedores determine the physical quality of a cigar,

proper construction, good weight, right proportions of ligero, seco, and volado,

it is the ligadores, the blenders, who determine which tobaccos are to be used,

and in what proportions, to produce, for example, either a D4, a RASS, or a BRC.

The torcedora's job is the same in either case.

All she really needs to know is that today she is rolling robustos.

The ligador has to do the best with whatever happens to be available,

and this is the crucial point.

If the proper tobaccos are available, a box of cigars from a provincial factory

can be just as good, and as typical, as one produced in the mother factory in Havana.

But if there is a shortage of ligero, the wrappers are lousy,

or the seco has not been properly fermented,

or certain vegas had a poor crop, and other have to be substituted,

then even a Hamlet or a Reynaldo can only produce beautifully rolled crap.

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What are you waiting for? Book it please, Sir.

Anywhere from mid 2010 onwards is good... But I'm not rooming with Ken. B)

I love the heck out of this idea. If it's 2012 I might even be able to come all the way from Canada for this.

Hell, i'll even room with Ken. We can talk about Canadian wine from Niagara and the Okanogan, and pants that don't sear the eyes. :rolleyes:

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Also, as a relative newb, I should say that after 3.5-4 years of cigar smoking, I can definitely now recognize specific marcas by their characteristic tastes, something I'm pretty surprised at myself. It may be just newer stock, yes - but the homogenization of marcas isn't too evident to me from this end.

Ones that are really easy for me to distinguish are SP, Party, Montecristo, Cohiba, LGC, and SLR. I'm still trying to figure out Bolivar!

Great speculations though, Ray! Although I havn't seen the numbers, an un-educated guess would be that habanos' market share has dropped a little, but only because of the plethora of NC choices.

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If the proper tobaccos are available, a box of cigars from a provincial factory

can be just as good, and as typical, as one produced in the mother factory in Havana.

But if there is a shortage of ligero, the wrappers are lousy,

or the seco has not been properly fermented,

or certain vegas had a poor crop, and other have to be substituted,

then even a Hamlet or a Reynaldo can only produce beautifully rolled crap.

Excellent point - and underlines a very important principle for those who constantly bemoan quality control. This is a natural product, quality is based on the whims of nature and a lot of people getting their jobs spot on. A small failing anywhere along the line can have catastrophic consequences... The producers can't very well refuse to produce for a year because the raw material isn't up to the task, they must do the best they can with what is available.

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. . . Although I havn't seen the numbers, an un-educated guess would be that habanos' market share has dropped a little, but only because of the plethora of NC choices.

Interesting. I wouldn't think that NC cigars would have made that kind of inroad into the Habanos market.

Just guessing, of course, but I would think that the drop in the economic environment would have more to do with loss of sales. That, and maybe they've priced themselves out of some markets. But maybe not.

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Identification of a specific cigar through taste would imply taste consistency. Brand recongnition through taste would imply branding constancy and diversity between brands. I submit little or none exists outside of the Cohiba line which is triple fermented. Cohibas, in my book are the easiest to identify, at least by me.

Saying you can recognize cigars in your humidor is not the same as saying you can taste brand characteristics! Now don't get all pissy on me; I am not saying you can't do anything as an individual, that you claim you can do. I am only saying, that recognizing your cigars AND brand characteristics, are not the same things.

Guys.... I am not in the position to tell anyone what they can or cannot taste. I speak, as always only for myself and for the sake of some good conversation. I do like a good challenge however and enjoy debunking myth!

Consider an intellectual honesty challenge. I supply a cigar. The cigar is of my choosing. The cigar is clipped and trimmed from the foot so you cannot easily identify the cigar by size. What are you willing to wager that you can identify the cigar?

Those who believe that cigars are consistent enough and brand diverse enough to take the challenge should be willing wager a sizable amount. Who is willing to wager?

This is a challenge of intellectual honesty and not a solicitation for a wager. Your posting does not obligate either you to me or visa versa. I am not saying I am interested in any wager of your individual tastes or abilities. I am looking for intellectual honesty however. I would like you to view the wager as legitimate if you can get in the mindset. The wager represents conviction to your belief.

Perhaps another member will chime in and say, "Hey you... I'll take that bet!" Just think about that before you post. If someone takes you up on it... would you see it through? Do you have the conviction to bet 10 grand you can identify a Cuban cigar I choose for you?

Knowing what the cigars are in advance is cheating. Lets say you take robustos. I don't smoke many of them. How many are made these days anyway; 5, 6, maybe 7? I don't know. And don't nitpick me by including Hermoso #4's! If I pick 4... and tell you what they are in advance this is not a double blind challenge. You can probably guess at a rate of 25% of the time without even smoking them! We could test this online by posting a picture of 4 known cigars and have people look at them and guess. This proves nothing about consistency and profile.

Lets take 42 ring cigars. I cut one down so you can't identify it. Either you believe that Partagas tastes like Partagas or you don't. If Bolivar tastes like Bolivar then you should not be intimidated by the raw numbers of cigars in the catalogue and be able to tell me what it is.

I think I am being intellectually honest by this example. If you cut down a 42 ring cigar and ask me to identify it I will likely get it wrong and I have smoked a ******* lot of 42 ring cigars. What then does this say about my opinion about brand characteristics? Either my palate can't distinguish them, a judgement I am willing to accept, or that they don't exist. My doubt stems from my own knowledge and experience, what I know of my tastes and cigar consistency. After smoking box after box of the same cigars I have come to realize that they are not all that consistent. I am not saying that they are either good or bad... just not consistent. If cigars were in fact consistent then no one here would ever say I like the '08 and not the '05's. Am I wrong? I think that today Cuban cigars are more consistent. Consistent enough to make many of them taste similar. While this is not the base intent of the thread I am willing to go with it and the flow of the thread and take my side of the debate.

Identifying cigars requires cigar consistency. Brand identification requires brand diversity. My logic is reflected in my macro view. Cigars are more consistent as a group AND less diverse as a group. That is my claim. The speculation was regarding the reasons. I submit the uniformity problem as my opinion and the reason as a separate opinion. So what role does my macro view play in identification? This means that either I cannot identify cigars because I don't know what they taste like and/or cigars are not unique enough for me to be identified by taste alone. A taste is a taste. A profile is a profile.

Saying that you can remember what your Cohiba robustos taste like is not the challenge. The challenge is with the cigar and not necessarily with you. If I clip up a 42 ring cigar, who can tell me what it is? I believe that the odds in getting it right will be in line with the actual odds established by the number of the cigars in the pool.

Just to be clear! I am not asking you if you can tell me what your cigars taste like. I am asking you if you can blindly identify my cigar, a cigar, by its taste. I want to know what all Bolivars taste like, not just what your box of Bolivar Royal Coronas taste like.

The greater you condition your reply the less confident you are in your reply. If you tell me that a Partagas tastes like a Partagas you are telling me that you know what a Partagas tastes like AND there is sufficient consistency in the brand for you to identify them accurately. You are telling me that there is something other than the band or the box that will tell you time after time that the cigar you are smoking is a Partagas. If I sent you any cigar, can you prove your theory about brand profiling and tell me what it is?

This brings me full circle. I have seen little evedence in brand taste profiling today. I ascertain that it is a myth today! I will exclude the Cohiba line as they are triple fermented and I believe they do have general taste characteristics.

Thanks for reading. -Piggy

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