More Speculation by Mr. Piggy


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The greater you condition your reply the less confident you are in your reply.

With respect to your instructions, qualification of a reply shows that your argument is not as clear as you make it out to be. Grey area, if you will.

I argue that I will pick an Upmann over 80% of the time (the lack of higher score is taking into consideration blending consistency, which is not the argument here, if I understand it correctly).

On the other hand, for me to smoke a Partagas D4 - you may see me call it a Bolivar a little more frequently.

If you say that that you've in fact made your point because one cant readily detect a Partagas.... what you're essentially saying is (in my humble opinion) is that you think there are to many brands in the Habanos inventory. Too many in order to blend unique profiles with the materials at hand.

Should we cull the brand list by 50% in order to better characterise (and individualise) the differences between brands?

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I submit little or none exists outside of the Cohiba line which is triple fermented. Cohibas, in my book are the easiest to identify, at least by me.

Are you sure Piggy? I'm not at least not in regional factories.

In relation to clipping down, I contend that if you did the experiment with peoples cigars ......FROM THEIR OWN HUMIDORS.....you would indeed have a significantly higher strike rate. Happy for Smithy to do this as an experiment.

No one argues about inconsistency. It is a given/curse.

Interesting thread mate ;)

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Are you sure Piggy? I'm not at least not in regional factories.

In relation to clipping down, I contend that if you did the experiment with peoples cigars ......FROM THEIR OWN HUMIDORS.....you would indeed have a significantly higher strike rate. Happy for Smithy to do this as an experiment.

No one argues about inconsistency. It is a given/curse.

Interesting thread mate ;)

Totally agree! That is not a test of brand characteristic however. That is box identification and significantly narrows the field. This is not representative of the (my) claim.

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Identifying cigars requires cigar consistency. Brand identification requires brand diversity. My logic is reflected in my macro view. Cigars are more consistent as a group AND less diverse as a group. That is my claim.

Understood. You have just given me an interesting exercise for a "masterclass". Will consult further with you to get the structure of the exercise right.

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With respect to your instructions, qualification of a reply shows that your argument is not as clear as you make it out to be. Grey area, if you will.

I argue that I will pick an Upmann over 80% of the time (the lack of higher score is taking into consideration blending consistency, which is not the argument here, if I understand it correctly).

On the other hand, for me to smoke a Partagas D4 - you may see me call it a Bolivar a little more frequently.

If you say that that you've in fact made your point because one cant readily detect a Partagas.... what you're essentially saying is (in my humble opinion) is that you think there are to many brands in the Habanos inventory. Too many in order to blend unique profiles with the materials at hand.

Should we cull the brand list by 50% in order to better characterise (and individualise) the differences between brands?

I originally made two claims. 1) Cigars are tasting more alike. 2) In a nutshell, cigars would be more unique if there were privatization of factories and they were run my knowledgeable enthusiasts... not party members! I am not going to rehash the political aspects of which I still speculate. The thread went the direction of brand recognition and diversity. I took up that banner off my original post. Rob A. indicated that his mates could pick 3 out of 4 recognizable cigars and identify them. Read his reply. My suggestion (above) is that naming your own cigar is proof of nothing. I can identify a large group of my cigars, but that was not my point.

I am not squaring off with you Rob but I ask you. If you like Upmanns and can identify them 80% of the time, please tell me what an Upmann tastes like. What is it in the Upmann cigar that tells you its an Upmann? My questions are not meant to challenge your claims or your integrity. If you claim you can do this, as an idividual whos opinions I have read and respected since your membership date, I believe you. I am still curios what tastes off of Rob A's flavor wheel (just an example) combines to form the Upmann taste?

How you extrapolate that (what I have posted) means that there are too many cigars in the catalogue; I don't know. Now we are talking apples and oranges but that is your representation, not mine! Otherwise I am not going to challenge your claims. You have better taste recognition and memory than I do Amigo and that is okay by me.

If you gave me 5 cigars 4 of which were Upmanns, I doubt "I" could identify the non-Upmann much greater than 20% of the time, the same odds as if I guessed. I have smoked a lot of cigars over the years. I have also denied being or believing in golden tongued gurus. Being able to pick the 4 Upmanns out of 5 cigars supplied by another is a skill... I wish I had it. I toast your skill. -Ray

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Identifying cigars requires cigar consistency. Brand identification requires brand diversity. My logic is reflected in my macro view. Cigars are more consistent as a group AND less diverse as a group. That is my claim.

Understood. You have just given me an interesting exercise for a "masterclass". Will consult further with you to get the structure of the exercise right.

We have some other egghead members who I am sure will help get the "science" right. As always I am happy to toss in my opinion. -Ray

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No probs Ray. You know me well enough to know that I don't engage/like pissing contests.

I certainly went down a different direction. If you lined up current 08 Robusto's or PC's or CG's from my humidor, debanded them, then I would have a near 80% hit rate averaged out over numerous tastings. We have done this enough times to know.

If we are talking about Marque, then I haven't done that in a blind tasting but it should be easy to find out with a batch of 08 cigars debanded and clipped. I would want them to be all the same year of production and a minimum of three months in the humidor. This is one for Smithy to arrange in the next week.

I believe Upmann has a unique "taste" as has Partagas, Bolivar, Cohiba etc. can I pick an Upmann from a bandless clipped cigar on a regular basis I would assume yes if it is a clipped Winston, 46, 50 but I am less confidant with others. However proof is in the pudding and this pudding ain't that hard to make ;)

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In my mind I sometimes think of the Cuban cigar industry as an octopus who's tentacles act completely independently of each other. Of course, I

have absolutely no knowledge of the inner workings.

There have been some great points made. Most pertinent for me is that there is only so much you can do with tobacco - climate conditions, yearly

crop variations, etc. I sometimes wonder about the pre-communist era - were private producers concerned with differentiating themselves from

each other, or were they simply interested in producing the best cigars possible with the materials at their disposal - or did they just produce cigars

to sell. Were perceived differences between brands a matter of individual plots of land, or a matter of brand loyalty , or........

So today, if I look past the socio-economic-political aspects (very difficult as I imagine it plays a large part), what, if anything has changed? (I'm

really asking, as I don't know). I imagine that in the past as well as today, brand identity would be something to strive for, though again, I feel there

is only so far you can go. But really, you can pretty much say the same for many industries today. If in the past, a producers tobacco came from a

single farm, or the same areas every year, it stands to reason that the cigars might be a little more consistent flavor wise yearly - even taking

into account natural variations. But I don't know if that is the case.

How is it done today? I know blenders try to maintain consistency, but is it possible the roots - that basic elements, have been brushed by the wayside?

I can't really put into words what I'm thinking to myself on the subject overall.

Regardless, my hope is that in the future, any producer, while doing what they can to maintain flavor consistency, would strive first and foremost

to produce the best cigars possible with every crop.

And not produce any flying pigs or silly fat perfectos........

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please tell me what an Upmann tastes like. What is it in the Upmann cigar that tells you its an Upmann?

This, I think, is a worthy point of discussion, and one that I would like to see discussed by some of the more experienced guys on the forum. I know that when asked for descriptions of specific cigars, there are guys here who can, in a few lines, nail the flavors of very similar cigars, and while I can't do it myself, I've read enough to be sure that they're not bullshitting. Jimmy, Ken, Tampa (RIP), and of course fearless leader himself leap to mind. I suspect that these guys could put together a summary of the different brands' signature flavor profiles, and while I don't care so much about the scientific approach that's being discussed, I would love to read these summaries, along with others who I know have opinions about this. I know that Trevor and Colt and a lot of the other members whose opinions I respect would also be interesting to read. As always, Piggy, your opinion has sparked some thoughtful discussion, and while I'm not qualified to weigh in on it myself, I hope this thread continues with posts from the above mentioned smokers, as well as the many other knowledgable people who populate this forum.

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How you extrapolate that (what I have posted) means that there are too many cigars in the catalogue; I don't know. Now we are talking apples and oranges but that is your representation, not mine! Otherwise I am not going to challenge your claims.

You have better taste recognition and memory than I do Amigo and that is okay by me.

I wish I had it. I toast your skill.

Sarcasm not required, Ray. You're a smart enough guy to make your point without it.

As to how I interpret what you have written to mean there are too many cigars in the catalogue - I did so by way of reckoning if the blending teams have insufficient materials on hand in order to make differently characterised marques... then why bother with all the brands?

I'm not in a pissing contest with you either, Ray. But your original post, and subsequent posts, do seem to quite argumentative.

How do you suggest Habanos rectify this problem that you perceive? (a problem which likely exists by the way).

I have a cellar full of wines that I love - but I cant tell a Wynn's from a Penfold's some days. Hell, some days it's all I can do to identify the grape I'm drinking... but that doesn't mean to say the winemakers have got it wrong... it just means that my palette isn't refined or experienced enough to know the difference.

But some days I really dont care what I'm drinking... some days I just want to get loaded.

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Brand homogenisation has to seen in the context of the socio-economic situation of Cuba.

On the collapse of the Soviet union,Cuba lost its funding,and there began what Castro calls "the Special Period",a euphamism for mass poverty and more stringent embargos from the US,therefore Castro developed tourism to try to get some income.

There is no doubt that the cigar industry was also pushed to it's limit to maximise income,and how much those changes still exist,I don't know,but from experience,when average quality drops,it doesn't seem to go back up again.

I still believe that Private ownership,with shareholders etc would see a decline in quality.

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Sarcasm not required, Ray. You're a smart enough guy to make your point without it.

As to how I interpret what you have written to mean there are too many cigars in the catalogue - I did so by way of reckoning if the blending teams have insufficient materials on hand in order to make differently characterised marques... then why bother with all the brands?

I'm not in a pissing contest with you either, Ray. But your original post, and subsequent posts, do seem to quite argumentative.

How do you suggest Habanos rectify this problem that you perceive? (a problem which likely exists by the way).

I have a cellar full of wines that I love - but I cant tell a Wynn's from a Penfold's some days. Hell, some days it's all I can do to identify the grape I'm drinking... but that doesn't mean to say the winemakers have got it wrong... it just means that my palette isn't refined or experienced enough to know the difference.

But some days I really dont care what I'm drinking... some days I just want to get loaded.

Rob... most importantly, I meant no offense to you. I have always thought people taste different things and have different tastes. I have also speculated that people have different taste sensitivity. I actually opened the door on the first... well one of the posts, saying, "Ray, perhaps your taste sensitivity is not that of mine," (mine meaning anyone willing to say it) and not take offense to it. You did that I think and honestly I took no offense to it. It is okay if someone says it. I care, while not perfect by any means, about being intellectually honest. Not too much about my taste sensitivity.

In turn I honestly envy those who have more sensitive tastes than me. While discussion has taken a personal comparative over a cigar comparative with me being the datum that too is okay. I set myself up for it. It is only a discussion. You have not been offensive with me and I have no reason to be offensive with you. I have not done so with the deliberate intent to be offensive.

In general I am alway sarcastic!!! You know that about me already. I am almost always controversial and argumentative. I try to hold the line at personally offensive, however! If my complements to you struck you as condescending, patronizing for offensive reject that and consider it a compliment. A complement is what it was... like it or not!

This is not a pissing contest. It is a fun conversation amongst friends. You have included yourself to my delight, not my dismay. You have answered honestly and certainly not rudely and while I did not understand the "apples to oranges" tangent it is the only real disagreement I have with you. There is nothing to take offense to here as I see it. I am not offended and I hope you are not. If I have offended you in any way I apologize. In general I only wish to offend Rob A., Ken and Ross!!!! If you wish to be added to the list just PM me! -LOL

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This, I think, is a worthy point of discussion, and one that I would like to see discussed......

You may find this thread of some interest:

Link

It's great to use the opinions of others as a guide, as you build your own personal "library" of profiles.

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You may find this thread of some interest:

Link

It's great to use the opinions of others as a guide, as you build your own personal "library" of profiles.

thanks for raising that thread Ross - a very useful resource for a newb such as myself.

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You may find this thread of some interest:

Link

It's great to use the opinions of others as a guide, as you build your own personal "library" of profiles.

Thanks, Colt. I hadn't seen that post before. It is very helpful. I also think it would be interesting to see more in-depth descriptions of the general brand characteristics, for anyone who has the interest and energy to write them down.

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Ray, as usual, I always look forward to your posts - whether they agree with my sentiments or not. Explanantions not required with regards to debate techniques - I was just pulling a swift move of my own and trying to get you off guard, so that I may get my point in.

I guess what I was doing with my posts was trying to advance (or progress) the debate/discussion, rather than let it sit at the opening point waiting to get off the starting line.

So, what say you to my analogy and question to you in my last post?

... oh, and feel free to add me to the list :)

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