colour or quality?

[Ken Gargett]

rob and i did a couple of vids yesterday with interesting results but we got sidetracked on an issue and i am hoping smithy might edit it out to make a third video (should be easy, smithers). I would had the audio been turned on, Smithy

it relates to improving the overall quality of cigars, or at least i think it does.

as most will know, the basics of making cigars involve the blender providing the material to the rollers who then roll the cigars they are told (though they won't know exactly what they'll become - hence, they will be told, as an example, to roll robustos but will not know that they'll end up as cohiba robustos).

then all of the cigars rolled as robustos (other rollers will be doing other cigars) are collected and sorted according to the colour/shading of the wrapper. it is actually quite fascinating to watch as they'll be split into about 40 or so different groups, according to minor shading differences. all good so far.

the cigars will then be boxed so that the wrappers are almost an identical shade. looks terrific when you open a box and see all those soldiers lined up, identical. it does mean that a box could theoretically have cigars from 25 different rollers in it.

with the LE's and RR's and very top, or hard to roll cigars like salomones, there are fewer rollers that are considered qualified to roll those so each box is more likely to have had fewer rollers with an input.

now, my problem is that having a number of different rollers contributing to each box leads to inconsistencies (if you really want to see how severe these inconsistencies can become, limit your smoking to say two or three boxes for a few weeks - as in just pick say three different smokes and take them from the same boxes, you'll very quickly realise how widely the quality varies in an individual box - much less apparent if you return to a box only a few times a year).

i would very much rather that the same roller made all the cigars in a box (and that the roller was acknoweledged on the box, either by name or code). it would mean that the cigars would not have that attractive identical appearance when they were opened but it would mean consistency of quality.

i believe that this would also lead to serious cigar smokers, such as members of forums like this (for those picking up a box duty free on their hols, this is largely irrelevant), identifying quality rollers, whether by name or by a code. those rollers could then be rewarded appropriately in havana while those not up to scratch could receive further training.

i really believe that not only would this lead to consistency of quality in boxes (granted by sacrificing consistency of colour). it would also lead to an overall improvement of quality in the long run. i accept it would take some structural changes and would not be easy to implement but i believe it is worth doing.

wondering if any thoughts on this.

do members prefer to have that consistency of colour and forsake consistency of quality?

[mkz]

Great post Ken!

Personally I would rather have even consistency in a box rather than matching colours.

[rckymtn22]

My thoughts are that most people want consistency but buy colour. The miss-matched coloured boxes would be like the ugly sister sitting on the sidelines until the last one left but it has all the personality.

[Colt45]

do members prefer to have that consistency of colour and forsake consistency of quality?

Interesting. One simplistic solution would to make sure each roller had wrapper leaves of the same, or as nearly possible, color.* But more importantly,

quality of construction should be close to equal, rendering wrapper shade initially as aesthetic.

I say initially in that wrapper shade can (not always of course) equate to thickness, and some of RA's experiments here have shown that wrapper can

play a large part in flavor profile. I know you addressed roller skill, and we know some of the reasons less experienced rollers are producing cigars, but

that has to be a major concern in moving forward (at least in my eyes).

* meaning roller A has medium wrapper shade, roller B dark wrappers, etc.

[shortsqueeze]

I remember when I used to be able to find boxes of beautiful cigars with superb construction. I see less and less over these last few years. I look at the caps in particular. To me, 99.9% of cigars that have a meticulously applied "three seam" head and cap are also constructed perfectly, with regard to fill and density. Sloppy head/cap = sloppy construction. A roller that takes the time to finish the cigar like the artist that they are, shows professionalism. Some glorious boxes I had come and go through my collection look like they were rolled by the same person, which I know would be nearly impossible.

[Wil]

do members prefer to have that consistency of colour and forsake consistency of quality?

100% for consistency of roll over colour.

[samb]

I would much rather have a consistant quality over color. But the likelihood of something like this goes greatly against Cuban economics. If one roller is selling all the best boxes and making more money than another roller, well now thats just too Capitalist .

But especially with the RRs and LEs, I think it could be a smart business move for HSA to impliment. It would also allow them to jerk the price up even more then they already are.

[Fuzz]

Gotta agree. Consistency is the key.

Would be very interesting to see the implementation of roller codes. Kinda like single barrel release of scotch and whiskey.

[Buch0]

I have always thought this a great idea since I was first confronted by inconsistency.

Although when I think about this particular note, one negative thing comes to mind and that is the lesser roller may be forever condemned for a few bad rolls at the beginning of their career. When the market (us enthusiasts) identifies and singles out a less competent roller, I think that the fate for this particular roller has been sealed amongst that community and consequently further groups. When giving the chance to purchase a box of cigars rolled by a better roller, compared to this previously condemned one, 99.9% of the time we will chose the box by the better roller. I know the enthusiasts only count for a small part of the overall market, but I think it would create a sense of inferior product ie "How can you review that box being of anyone quality when the roller has created rubbish in the past?" or "Why would you sell boxes from that dud roller?".

My opinion is that it maybe better in the bigger picture if lesser rollers cigars are distributed throughout the whole range rather than be focused into complete boxes.

Would be an interesting turn of practise though as no one is against greater consistency!!

[Habanos2000]

If one roller is selling all the best boxes and making more money than another roller, well now thats just too Capitalist .

My thoughts exactly. I just sounds so anti-socialist I don't see it happening. Although I'm all for consistency over color matching.

[MIKA27]

Of course consistency is paramount and no one wants to open a box and see a group of stogies that are different colours (Made by the same roller) however, in achieving the perfect box, and nobody knows who the better roller is over another, in that instance, a code would be ideal to differentiate one roller from another.

In stating the above, if complete boxes were made by the same roller(s) we would find complete and consistant boxes that smoke beautifully but on the flip side, we will have the consumer also purchasing boxes that are full and complete from a bad roller which means that rather than a few 'plugged' cigars, one may just find that they have a complete box of botched cigars.

[Colt45]

My opinion is that it maybe better in the bigger picture if lesser rollers cigars are distributed throughout the whole range rather than be focused into complete boxes.

Personally, I'd prefer that rollers be required to have achieved a certain skill level through training prior to being allowed to roll production cigars. Given

the way the company portrays their product, and the prices they deem fit to charge, I believe we have the right to expect a certain level of quality and

consistency, especially with regard to construction.

[MIKA27]

Personally, I'd prefer that rollers be required to have achieved a certain skill level through training prior to being allowed to roll production cigars. Given

the way the company portrays their product, and the prices they deem fit to charge, I believe we have the right to expect a certain level of quality and

consistency, especially with regard to construction.

Exactly!

CC's are considered the pinnacle of all cigars, are generally more expensive due to their reputation and as such, training for all rollers should be carried out.

I must say, it is disheartening when you find a box that has not only plugged cigars but asthetically looks bad as I too have only recently purchased a new box of COHIBA Secretos and they look S**t (Caps look terrible) and they smoke way too heavy compared to the previous box which were all amazing.

[Buch0]

Personally, I'd prefer that rollers be required to have achieved a certain skill level through training prior to being allowed to roll production cigars. Given

the way the company portrays their product, and the prices they deem fit to charge, I believe we have the right to expect a certain level of quality and

consistency, especially with regard to construction.

Couldn't agree more.

I also tend to believe the point that the majority of the rollers when put to the test are indeed capable of rolling the great cigars though, its just the fact that their individual performance on the day varies due to any number of circumstances throughout that day (tiredness, lazyness, distractions etc). Being only human, the rollers wont be able to great their best work 100% of the time which is where our consistency problems come into play. Would indeed be intriguing to see Kens theory put to the test, even if for only a set period to see how it fares out although I wouldn't be confident in how it would affect our purchasing of cigars for the future.

[Northshore04]

Excellent topic. I would also lean heavily towards the quality over color consistency.

[Ken Gargett]

I have always thought this a great idea since I was first confronted by inconsistency.

Although when I think about this particular note, one negative thing comes to mind and that is the lesser roller may be forever condemned for a few bad rolls at the beginning of their career. When the market (us enthusiasts) identifies and singles out a less competent roller, I think that the fate for this particular roller has been sealed amongst that community and consequently further groups.

i suspect that might not be so. someone will buy those boxes and if he has improved then they'll take notice. the problem for them will be when he doesn't improve, in which case he should probably not be rolling in the first place.

[khomeinist]

Personally I am definetely NOT interested in any sort of 'celebrity' roller phenomenon. Reminds me too much of other forms of celebrity culture that I detest. The celebrity blender marketing scheme found for many non-Cuban cigar lines is embarassing at best.

What I do want is a thorough quality-control stage whereby shoddy or underfilled cigars are removed from distribution. Sell them as seconds or bundles. Who cares? Track roller efficiency and distribute bonuses according to 'first' efficiency. But keep this info in-house. Make box codes irrelevant. Put out a superior product.

Amen?

[Colt45]

I think one of the main things of note is something Rob has reported on a number of times - shall we say "working conditions". And in some ways,

it seems to be getting a bit worse rather than better. Let me ask this: five years ago, how many of us would have thought we'd be discussing this

topic today? I probably would have thought it all in the past.

And this may be off base, but Altadis / Imperial have their fingers in the pie - they need to take some responsibility as well.

[khomeinist]

I think one of the main things of note is something Rob has reported on a number of times - shall we say "working conditions". And in some ways,

it seems to be getting a bit worse rather than better. Let me ask this: five years ago, how many of us would have thought we'd be discussing this

topic today? I probably would have thought it all in the past.

And this may be off base, but Altadis / Imperial have their fingers in the pie - they need to take some responsibility as well.

Not off base. Altadis non-Cuban products have a higher level of consistency than the equivalent Cuban products. Admittedly, the non-Cuban cigars lack the complexity and profiles that we as Cuban aficionados crave. But I don't think that this socialist/capitalist partnership is incapable of removing **** cigars from general release.

Idealist until death. Or malaise. Or whatever.

[Ken Gargett]

Personally I am definetely NOT interested in any sort of 'celebrity' roller phenomenon. Reminds me too much of other forms of celebrity culture that I detest. The celebrity blender marketing scheme found for many non-Cuban cigar lines is embarassing at best.

What I do want is a thorough quality-control stage whereby shoddy or underfilled cigars are removed from distribution. Sell them as seconds or bundles. Who cares? Track roller efficiency and distribute bonuses according to 'first' efficiency. But keep this info in-house. Make box codes irrelevant. Put out a superior product.

Amen?

avoiding the celebrity roller concept is why i mentioned doing it by code. that way, habanos would know which rollers are getting the best response but we would not and so the celebrity thing doesn't play.

as rob mentioned in the vid yesterday, too easy for a quality controller to pocket a few bucks to let shoddy work through or to support his mates.

if it comes down to the serious consumers chasing cigars by '283', '365' and '919', for example, but not keen on boxes by ''83', '737' and '566' then you have the perfect objective tracking system. the dud rollers are not embarassed publically but can be given extra training. the good guys get their bonus. everyone aims for the bonus, you'd hope, so overall the standard lifts. market forces and all. yes, i know that these are not terms given much credence in certain countries but if cuba wants to remain as the pinnacle of cigars, they need to be always trying to improve. much, much harder to retrieve a reputation than to lose it in the first place.

[JMH]

I like the idea of greater consistency of quality within a box, however being able to identify rollers doesn't appeal to me. I may be overly cynical, however I could see it being exploited by HSA as a way to make more money by offering two versions of each cigar - the regular production, and the 'expert rolled' (or whatever you want to call it) production at an increased price. Overall, I think this would just further decrease the quality of your average cuban cigar.

Colt's idea of handing each roller a bundle of colour-consistent wrappers sounds good, but I have no idea as to whether or not it is practical.

[Ken Gargett]

one further thought i forgot to mention. they slip bits of paper in the boxes now with various information. no reason they couldn't add, or put on a separate slip, a bit of info re the process, noting that the reason the box may not have cigars identical in colour is because of efforts to improve quality/consistency etc etc. enough wineries did it when we started to get screwcaps and now everyone understands and it isn't necessary.

[MrGlass]

It certainly is an interesting concept.

I'd like to see it tried, but can't ever see it happening. If it ain't broke, or even if it is but still kinda working....

[khomeinist]

avoiding the celebrity roller concept is why i mentioned doing it by code. that way, habanos would know which rollers are getting the best response but we would not and so the celebrity thing doesn't play.

as rob mentioned in the vid yesterday, too easy for a quality controller to pocket a few bucks to let shoddy work through or to support his mates.

if it comes down to the serious consumers chasing cigars by '283', '365' and '919', for example, but not keen on boxes by ''83', '737' and '566' then you have the perfect objective tracking system. the dud rollers are not embarassed publically but can be given extra training. the good guys get their bonus. everyone aims for the bonus, you'd hope, so overall the standard lifts. market forces and all. yes, i know that these are not terms given much credence in certain countries but if cuba wants to remain as the pinnacle of cigars, they need to be always trying to improve. much, much harder to retrieve a reputation than to lose it in the first place.

Excellent points. I am not sure that the average consumer is concerned with codes, but a consumer-driven quality-control process might be more pragmatic than some sort of idealistic multi-staged scheme with multiple levels of product review (given the political implications of hierarchical management that may truly be necessary to improve consistency).

[El Presidente]

I think that the systems are already in place to achieve consistency in both flavour and construction. The sad reality is that they are not being enforced in the way they should be. The prime reason as colt points out is the personal economic situation the rollers and factory workers find themselves in.

Has a true communist country ever really produced a tier 1commercial product which requires manual labour? I can't think of one but I may be wrong.

How I would love factory workers to own shares in the factory itself. To understand targets, rejections, profit, reward.

The problem is not the factories. the problem is the greater system that does not promote quality. There are exceptions. There are rollers and factory workers who are proud and passionate. They are true legends to be able to block out the harshness of reality all around them.