a tragic new year for some

[Ken Gargett]

just saw this report. i know we have had the discussion about guns before and not trying to revive it - bit diffrent from my end when the people concerned are law enforcement (i have no problem with guns in appropriate circumstances there, though it does place the responsibility on the individual) - and i know this is a horrible, horrible tragedy but what sort of moron leaves a gun where a three year old can get it. the kid probably thought it was a toy.

he should be prosecuted to the full extent possible as far as i am concerned. he has utterly stuffed up a lot of lives through this.

AN off-duty police officer's three-year-old son has reportedly shot and killed a three-year-old cousin with his father's gun in the United States.

Police were called to a house in Rayville, Louisiana at 2.30 p.m. local time yesterday, the News-Star reported.

Sheriff Charles McDonald said the children - a boy and a girl - were playing out the front of the house when the off-duty officer went to get something out of his car.

While he was turned, the boy walked up and picked up the officer’s firearm, which was in the driver’s side door.

The boy then pulled the trigger and accidentally shot the girl, killing her instantly, Sheriff McDonald said.

He described the death as a "tragic accident".

[anacostiakat]

Sad.

There was a report here of a store front church that had a bunch of shots pumped into it while services were going on. No one was hurt badly luckily.

There is a penchant for firing off guns to celebrate the New Year around here.

[jawofboston]

What a raging moron. There's a perception that cops are professionals when it comes to the handling of firearms, but I've found almost the opposite to be true. I shoot at a local gun club on the weekends, and every now and then the local police departments will show up for practice. Plenty of arrogance and bravado on display, but very little in the way of safe firearms handling. My guns are locked and out of reach of small hands.

[Colt45]

i know we have had the discussion about guns before and not trying to revive it

Are you sure?

That aside, I'm curious as to type of gun. Though certainly not impossible, it would be difficult for a three year old's small hands to handle a full

sized service weapon. Regardless, tragic - like fatal auto wrecks, home fires and the like. All of which can be prevented in one way or another.

[jmasterj]

Although each department sets its own policy, on the local level, usually an officer is required to turn in their dury firearm at the end of their shift. So this leads me to believe, especially since this was in the southern US that this firearm was a smaller firearm meant to be concealed in a waistband or ankle. Small hands easily get around these. Reason why I say since this was in the southern US, is because in the south, it is acceptable and practiced that carrying a concealed firearm also means having it in a compartment in your vehicle. Many Southerners actually have special compartments made in their vehicles just for this. I would expect a father of young children to be more responsible and not such a cowboy. Tragic indeed.

[Shelby07]

As you said, the responsibility is placed on the individual. This is true with many things in life and when that responsibility is taken lightly or ignored tragedies can and sometimes do happen. You can probably scour today's papers and find several articles about drunk drivers causing injury or death to themselves or others last night. I would guess that many of us at some point in our lives have been responsible for situations that might have endangered ourselves or others. Most of the time we get lucky. Sometimes things go horribly wrong. In this case, the guy had a loaded firearm in his car, apparently not very well concealed. Given the circumstances and lack of responsibility on his part I fully agree that this person should, and I'm sure will, be prosecuted.

[PigFish]

I don't want to stir the pot here especially so early in the year. I know some of us are sensitive politically to firearms laws; I am one for sure, as is our thread starter Ken; diametrically opposed unfortunately. All I can add to the discussion is this.

The death of a child is a tragic thing. There is not a better or worse way for a child to die; not in my mind anyway. A child that dies in a firearms accident is still tragically dead. A child that dies in a bicycle accident is still tragically dead. A child that dies at the hands of a doctor in an abortion is still tragically dead... So the question is this; which child will you use to make your political argument? They are all martyrs for someone. Which one will be yours? Which one will you decide is the more important to save than the others?

I use one primarily. This child, me, is alive and on this planet due to the fact that his father defended his life successfully with a firearm from an angry political mob. He lived to have me as a child to tell about it.

The only choices that remain are the intelligent application of sensible laws designed to reduce the numbers while retaining the freedom and civil liberties of a nation of children and the adults responsible for them. Kids die tragically everyday. Each one can be used as a political statement. Accidents are by definition not intentional and are often perpetrated by young, ignorant or just stupid people. Youth, ignorance and stupidity are all still lawful. We can take up the argument of the elimination of those another time!

Cheers, Ken!

[Shelby07]

I don't want to stir the pot here especially so early in the year. I know some of us are sensitive politically to firearms laws; I am one for sure, as is our thread starter Ken; diametrically opposed unfortunately. All I can add to the discussion is this.

The death of a child is a tragic thing. There is not a better or worse way for a child to die; not in my mind anyway. A child that dies in a firearms accident is still tragically dead. A child that dies in a bicycle accident is still tragically dead. A child that dies at the hands of a doctor in an abortion is still tragically dead... So the question is this; which child will you use to make your political argument? They are all martyrs for someone. Which one will be yours? Which one will you decide is the more important to save than the others?

I use one primarily. This child, me, is alive and on this planet due to the fact that his father defended his life successfully with a firearm from an angry political mob. He lived to have me as a child to tell about it.

The only choices that remain are the intelligent application of sensible laws designed to reduce the numbers while retaining the freedom and civil liberties of a nation of children and the adults responsible for them. Kids die tragically everyday. Each one can be used as a political statement. Accidents are by definition not intentional and are often perpetrated by young, ignorant or just stupid people. Youth, ignorance and stupidity are all still lawful. We can take up the argument of the elimination of those another time!

Cheers, Ken!

I agree 100% with this. I'd ask not only "which child" but why a child at all (other than for dramatic effect?) Accidents happen to every age group. Isn't a 28 year old son/husband/wife/daughter or a 78 year old mother/father/grandparent/sister/brother just as tragic?

[riderpride]

Police Officers are no different than any other profession; you have good ones and bad ones. I for one would like to know if this was indeed a tragic mistake, or if the indivisual has a history with recklessness.

[adamg]

I'd have thought these statistics would add to the debate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...ated_death_rate

[armedak]

The fact still remains, a firearm is a tool. Would you have felt better if the off duty cop had backed up into his driveway and run over the children killing them? Would you have felt better if the cop had left the car running and the child jumped in the car and somehow put it in gear and ran over the other child?

[Shelby07]

I'd have thought these statistics would add to the debate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...ated_death_rate

And these as well...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...ders-per-capita

[Ken Gargett]

I don't want to stir the pot here especially so early in the year. I know some of us are sensitive politically to firearms laws; I am one for sure, as is our thread starter Ken; diametrically opposed unfortunately. All I can add to the discussion is this.

The death of a child is a tragic thing. There is not a better or worse way for a child to die; not in my mind anyway. A child that dies in a firearms accident is still tragically dead. A child that dies in a bicycle accident is still tragically dead. A child that dies at the hands of a doctor in an abortion is still tragically dead... So the question is this; which child will you use to make your political argument? They are all martyrs for someone. Which one will be yours? Which one will you decide is the more important to save than the others?

I use one primarily. This child, me, is alive and on this planet due to the fact that his father defended his life successfully with a firearm from an angry political mob. He lived to have me as a child to tell about it.

The only choices that remain are the intelligent application of sensible laws designed to reduce the numbers while retaining the freedom and civil liberties of a nation of children and the adults responsible for them. Kids die tragically everyday. Each one can be used as a political statement. Accidents are by definition not intentional and are often perpetrated by young, ignorant or just stupid people. Youth, ignorance and stupidity are all still lawful. We can take up the argument of the elimination of those another time!

Cheers, Ken!

i do agree very much with the points made that any death is a tragedy, whatever age. for a tiny child to die in this manner somehow seems worse but, true, a family dying at the hands of a drunk driver is just as bad for everyone concerned. however, i do think that some 'accidents' are more stupid or more preventable than others and this, for me, is very much such a case.

i know it was a fine line but i really wasn't trying to provoke another debate re guns - i know i am going to be getting the 'you are supposed to be a responsible moderator' talk again from glow worm boy - this was more about the levels of human responsibility.

ray is right that he and i have differing views re gun control (and i know am in the minority in this forum). that said, i have never extended that to law enforcement or military etc and if a nation wants to pass laws allowing ordinary citizens to arm themselves to the teeth, that is their decision no matter how braindead i think it might be. but in doing so, what i was getting at, and i think others have touched on this as well, is that there surely has to be an appropriate level of responsibility atached to this. i know the bloke must be feeling like hell but he deserves a very long spell in a very nasty prison, if i ruled the world.

ray, i would say that there is a very big difference in many ways betwen a child dying in a bike riding accident, as per your example, and where some moron has left his loaded gun around (and presumably safety catch in the position where it can be fired). yes, both kids tragically just as dead and families equally devastated but the first is a genuine accident. the second is not an accident, it is (and i don't mean to use this in a strictly legal interpratation as i am unaware with that jurisdiction's laws) criminally negligent. otherwise, i completely agree with your last paragraph (i really was not trying to use this child's death as a political statement about guns). but therein lies the problem. one man's 'sensible law' can be another, equally reasonable man's travesty of justice.

i would also argue that the abortion issue is also very different but i know that if we get into an abortion debate while GW boy is in nz, i'm really for it. that said, ray, the use of the word 'child' in your post probably gives your position away. that alone could be a very long debate.

whatever one's views on any of this, it will be a good new year if we read of this sort of thing happening far less.

[Colt45]

- this was more about the levels of human responsibility.

I realize you are replying to Piggy - you could have chosen any number of ways to illustrate the lack of human responsibility in the world, but

chose the gun debate - again. Were you really just perusing a Louisiana newspaper website by happenstance?

You've made your position regarding your hatred of guns clear many times. I've made it clear that I feel humans are a sad species many times.

We can continue to argue about these topics here on the forum as much as you like, but know that on each and every occasion, we'll simply be

bashing our heads against stone walls. To paraphrase, let those of us without sin cast the first stone.

Peace to you my friend, and a happy effing new year to us all.

[Ken Gargett]

I realize you are replying to Piggy - you could have chosen any number of ways to illustrate the lack of human responsibility in the world, but

chose the gun debate - again. Were you really just perusing a Louisiana newspaper website by happenstance?

You've made your position regarding your hatred of guns clear many times. I've made it clear that I feel humans are a sad species many times.

We can continue to argue about these topics here on the forum as much as you like, but know that on each and every occasion, we'll simply be

bashing our heads against stone walls. To paraphrase, let those of us without sin cast the first stone.

Peace to you my friend, and a happy effing new year to us all.

colt, this really wasn't intended as specifically anti gun, even if some may chose not to believe that (i realise that we've all gone about as far as we can there, though if one wanted to use it in that sense, it is a reasonably strong thread to any argument - we could go down the road of how often the lack of human responsibility arises around guns but i really didn't intend it. i know i'm wasting my time). the fact that the guy was law enforcement takes it out of that category for me - had it been joe bloggs, i might have been more inclined to align it to yet another good argument against guns but it wasn't and i was not thinking along those lines.

it could have been many things, say leaving open a bottle of toxic pills near the kid or leaving a live electric wire near where they where playing. or putting the kid down next to an unfenced deep pool and walking off and leaving him - any of those sort of actions.

the comment above about us all having done dumb things and been lucky applies to me as much as anyone but there is a line and i'd like to think that none of us have crossed it. in this case, it just happened to be a gun. i would be as outraged by any of those actions, no more or less than that.

every year i go to fraser island which is a wonderful place but use of it is being put under threat by imbeciles who go hooning around in 4wds and every year, some are killed (real darwin awards stuff for me but sadly, others also get killed and responsible use of the island is under threat because of this). part of it is that the guys renting out 4wds to backpackers don't give proper instructions but these are 20-something kids from europe who have never driven a 4wd and suddnely have one they can drive around the beaches. could not tell you how often one sees one of these rentals whizzing along at high speed with an idiot riding the bull bars with a can of beer. the beach has all manner of dips, soft spots, creeks, logs and so on. it was more along the lines of this sort of stupidity that i was headed.

and it was reported in the paper i write for, which is where i saw it.

just thought it incredibly sad for the child and family and unbelievably irresponsible of him.

peace indeed to you, your family and even the idiots.

[Guest rob]

A 2 year old child was killed this weekend in Sydney - a car driven by some bad guys ran into another car while being pursued by police.

Sad. Very sad.

[tigger]

I'm a strong proponent of the right to own firearms.

There are few people I hold in lower esteem than those who handle and own guns irresponsibly.

[jawofboston]

I'm a strong proponent of the right to own firearms.

There are few people I hold in lower esteem than those who handle and own guns irresponsibly.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[cigaraholic]

The second amendment doesn't say everybody gets a gun, that's not why it's in the US. constitution. But thanks to the NRA and lousy education we have the fricken wild west in the US. Now if I don't agree with you or you took my parking space I just might get a gun and shoot you. Happens everyday in the USA. Always a tragedy and never the guns fault.

[Ken Gargett]

A 2 year old child was killed this weekend in Sydney - a car driven by some bad guys ran into another car while being pursued by police.

Sad. Very sad.

that is indeed a tragedy but i struggle when i hear people say the police shouldn't chase them in case it happens. crooks know that and it is open slather. but it does leave open the possibility of this sort of thing. provided the police have chased in the most responsible manner in the corcumstances, i'd change the law to place the highest possible penalties on the crooks if anything like this should occur.

[Ken Gargett]

and guys, re debate specifically about guns, perhaps we should shelve it - on both sides. this really wasn't intended as a gun specific thread, no matter what some may think or how it has eventuated.

other stuff fine but i think that the forum has done guns to death, no pun intended.

[Colt45]

and guys, re debate specifically about guns, perhaps we should shelve it - on both sides. this really wasn't intended as a gun specific thread, no matter what some may think or how it has eventuated.

KG, really - what did you think would happen?!?

[Ken Gargett]

KG, really - what did you think would happen?!?

honstly? i thought we'd so flogged the topic of guns to a lifeless heap that no one would bother. i really, really did mean this about human responsibility. now if i wanted to do guns, colt, you know where i would have gone. it just happened that guns were the instrument.

at least this time, we have all remained civil. glow worm boy will be proud. sort of.

[Colt45]

glow worm boy will be proud. sort of.

I won't bet next month's mortgage payment on that. Of course, he may be so happy to get clear of forced family fun, get out of NZ, and start

drinking again that this will seem like a warm, welcoming blanket.