President Barack Obama now owns the crippling Cuba embargo, because he hasn't stopped it

[El Presidente]

Shelby just a couple of points.

1. I know both Ken and I have always been Anti Castro. There are plenty of threads on the forum saying same from both of us (including this thread).

2. You may not be aware but the "Trading with the Enemy Act" restricts any US individual or Corporation from owning shares/having an investment in any business which trades with Cuba. Now take a multinational company based in Europe. Take anything from farm machinery to chemicals to medicines. These multimnationals have a choice of taking US investment and access to US markets (25% of the worlds GDP) or dealing directly with Cuba. Many do it via a third party (hence increasing costs to Cuba) but there are many multinationals who will not risk it.

This is the insidious part of the embargo. It intentionally drags in non US interests in an effort to add pain to the Cuban Government. Unfortunately it is the day to day cubans on the street who actually feel the pain.

[Shelby07]

Shelby just a couple of points.

1. I know both Ken and I have always been Anti Castro. There are plenty of threads on the forum saying same from both of us (including this thread).

2. You may not be aware but the "Trading with the Enemy Act" restricts any US individual or Corporation from owning shares/having an investment in any business which trades with Cuba. Now take a multinational company based in Europe. Take anything from farm machinery to chemicals to medicines. These multimnationals have a choice of taking US investment and access to US markets (25% of the worlds GDP) or dealing directly with Cuba. Many do it via a third party (hence increasing costs to Cuba) but there are many multinationals who will not risk it.

This is the insidious part of the embargo. It intentionally drags in non US interests in an effort to add pain to the Cuban Government. Unfortunately it is the day to day cubans on the street who actually feel the pain.

I understand all of that and I am obviously no fan of Castro and am certainly for lifting the embargo. The sad part about this whole situation is that Americans really like the Cuban people, and I believe that the Cuban people like Americans.

It's been stated a couple of times that the politicians will change their tune as soon as it's politically expedient to do so. Of course they will. They will sell their soul for votes. While there are more and more of the younger Cuban-American generation who didn't lose everything or have to leave family and friends behind because of Castro, I think that the Cuban-American population will continue to respect the wishes and emotions of those who did. I believe that the Cuban-Americans are still extremely unified especially in Miami where their voting block can swing the entire state one way or the other, and that, strangely enough, it continues to be the Cuban-Americans who are ultimately responsible for the embargo still being in place.

[thechenman]

Maybe I am wrong, but it seems to me that years of cutting taxes for the rich has taken its toll.

Perhaps if the obscene profits of the banking system and weathiest corporations were adequately taxed, if the billionaires paid a fair share, and if the gov't cut the subsidies to industrial agriculture, things might turn around.

Part of the reason that the people are bankrupt is that they are spending a fortune for the privilege of being ripped off (i.e. unfair taxation).

Unfortunately, the gov't (through the Federal Reserve) will, as it always has, take the easy way out, and pass off the problem to the future by creating trillions of dollars out of nothing.

Inflation is the inevitable result.

It is not by coincidence that gold is almost $1100/oz.

Montrealron...

I don't know if you are aware of this, but in 2007 under the Bush Administration and its publicly decried tax policies (read:tax breaks for the wealthy), the wealthiest 1% of Americans paid more in taxes to the federal government the the bottom 95%. Of all federal taxes taken that year, this top 1% paid over 40% of what the governement took in. Knowing this...would you sy that they paid their share of taxes. Mind you this was the second year in a row that this happened. 2006 was the same. In case you doubt this...check witht he IRS. They are the ones who calculate and tabulate this data. So essentially what we are looking at is the tax burden of the top 1% earners being far in excess of the bottom 95%. Does that sound fair to you? As a tax apying American...it makes no sense to me...

[Chaki]

I apologize for the tone of this next part in advance.

I am an American. Not a blind, flag waving, "my country can do no wrong" American, but there are things that I am proud of. We help a lot of people around the world. I believe that while we aren't perfect, we do more good than harm and, bankrupt or not, we are always the first ones to offer aid and defense to the rest of the world. And oddly enough, if we fail to we seem to get condemned for it.

No need to apologize, there is nothing wrong with the tone.

Ken, and I and most people agree that the US do more good than harm. As Ken said, the US is well-intentioned, most of the times, when it intervenes. I think people criticize the US not because they fail but for 2 reasons:

1) when their intervention is not motivated by the desire to help but by their own interests (which all countries have). And it's even worse when they disguise such self-interested intervention under some higher moral motive.

2) when they were not asked to help but intervened anyway.

Like it or not, the US is held to a higher standard. The same goes for, say, the UK, France, Germany or Australia (sorry I forgot a few others). Zimbabwe or North Korea can claim to be beacons of truth and light, nobody takes them seriously. However, people take it seriously when it comes to any countries I mentioned earlier. That's why it hurts when the US (or France) supports an African tyrant or a South-American dictator.

[El Presidente]

No need to apologize, there is nothing wrong with the tone.

Like it or not, the US is held to a higher standard. The same goes for, say, the UK, France, Germany or Australia (sorry I forgot a few others). Zimbabwe or North Korea can claim to be beacons of truth and light, nobody takes them seriously. However, people take it seriously when it comes to any countries I mentioned earlier. That's why it hurts when the US (or France) supports an African tyrant or a South-American dictator.

Fair point Chaki

Over the last 20 years there has been plenty to be ashamed of by many "leading" countries.

The supply of military hardware and chemicals to the Iraq (Gemany, France)

The financial support of African dictators.

The turning of a blind eye to repression within China (everyone)

Swiss Banks and their penchant for protection of criminals.

Australia's Rugby performance against the All blacks.

[Colt45]

you think that mcdonalds opened on red square because the place needed a face lift?

as for tourists, until a few years ago, there were far more american tourists - around a million a year - than from any other nation.

McDonalds can't survive anywhere without patrons, and I tend to doubt that there's a Macky Ds mob running around saying "you're gonna

open up a mcdonalds in this here country, myeah shee".

Of the million tourists, how many held humanitarian / family permits, were cigar lovers, were sexual predators, or were working Americans

who looked into going on a Caribbean vacation and decided they'd take a chance on getting caught and chose Cuba?

[Shelby07]

I really don't mind the US being held to a higher standard. It's what I grew up with and, quite frankly, I don't expect any less from my country. In fact, I think you'll find that most Americans expect more from our govt than what people of other countries do. It's why we are getting so damn angry with our politicians. What I do mind is when people start trash talking the US as if we're some kind of a tyrannical country filled with selfish war mongers with no heart and hell bent on controlling the world with our oppressive policies.

Face it, if you're going to cast a vote for somebody who is campaigning to end the embargo as opposed to somebody who's going to lower taxes or save your job, you're not even going to think about the embargo. The truth is that most Americans just don't think about Cuba or the embargo to much. Only a few people feel passionately about it enough to let it have a major influence on how they vote. Those people can make or break a political party and so far they haven't wanted it lifted.

Like it or not, that's the way things work.

I'm just curious, how many folks here have ever written their representatives telling them you want the embargo lifted?

[Padrino]

chemicals to the Iraq (Gemany, France)

Just to be pedantic, you forgot to add Donald Rumsfeld to that list.

[maalouly]

My head hurts reading this thread ... where are we again?

[zuma]

My head hurts reading this thread ... where are we again?

I'm with you... its a bizarre thread about Obama getting pwned by a crippled Cuban... or something like that...

[Colt45]

So Shelby,

Are you trying to say that the problems in Cuba start with her own government, that if the people of Cuba want the "blockade" lifted, they

should look to their own government and not elsewhere, and that any real change must come from within?

Next you'll be trying to tell us the sky is blue and the grass is green.

(The views expressed are my own. I've not been to Cuba and make no claim that I understand her inner or outer workings)

[Shelby07]

...Next you'll be trying to tell us the sky is blue and the grass is green.

I'm not going there. It'd probably start an argument.

[Colt45]

I'm not going there. It'd probably start an argument.

Or at the very least be told you're full of crap (meant in the nicest possible way). Kind of like the gun rights advocates were told not too

long ago. Hey, wait a minute, I'm beginning to sense a trend - Ken hates America and Americans!

[PigFish]

I get in enough trouble around here without politics. I have enjoyed the thread however and am rather proud of the fact that I have had the stoicism to stay out of it!!!

Colt, you have made a few comments but kept well out of the fire! I must know how you do it. If you are taking mood enhancing medications you need to PM me with the product names!!! Cheers, my friends. - the Pig

[MontrealRon]

Or at the very least be told you're full of crap (meant in the nicest possible way). Kind of like the gun rights advocates were told not too

long ago. Hey, wait a minute, I'm beginning to sense a trend - Ken hates America and Americans!

No, he dosn't. He only hates Canadians, especially Quebecers.

Americans, New Zealanders, etc, he dislikes...

[PigFish]

Or at the very least be told you're full of crap (meant in the nicest possible way). Kind of like the gun rights advocates were told not too

long ago. Hey, wait a minute, I'm beginning to sense a trend - Ken hates America and Americans!

...oh ****! Spoke too soon!

[MontrealRon]

Montrealron...

I don't know if you are aware of this, but in 2007 under the Bush Administration and its publicly decried tax policies (read:tax breaks for the wealthy), the wealthiest 1% of Americans paid more in taxes to the federal government the the bottom 95%. Of all federal taxes taken that year, this top 1% paid over 40% of what the governement took in. Knowing this...would you sy that they paid their share of taxes. Mind you this was the second year in a row that this happened. 2006 was the same. In case you doubt this...check witht he IRS. They are the ones who calculate and tabulate this data. So essentially what we are looking at is the tax burden of the top 1% earners being far in excess of the bottom 95%. Does that sound fair to you? As a tax apying American...it makes no sense to me...

Your point is well taken.

However, what about the corporations?

How many are actually subsidised, rather than being net contributors?

[Colt45]

...oh ****! Spoke too soon!

!LOL!

Have you ever noticed that when a certain member is away for a few weeks fishing or on a wine junket, things are fairly peaceful around here?

But that when he returns, the fur almost always starts to fly?!?

P.S. I'm just high on life, Piggy

[PigFish]

!LOL!

Have you ever noticed that when a certain member is away for a few weeks fishing or on a wine junket, things are fairly peaceful around here?

But that when he returns, the fur almost always starts to fly?!?

P.S. I'm just high on life, Piggy

My senses notwithstanding; no way am I takin' that bait my friend. I have done my best to stay outta' this thread and have enjoyed watching brother Ken climb under the bus all by himself.

[MontrealRon]

One last shot, before I retire from this thread...

Why does everyone keep referring to the terrible poverty of the Cuban people,

and then argue about who to blame this on, the Castros or the Americans?

Poverty and wealth are relative terms, and must be taken in context to have any meaning.

I have been to Cuba many times, first in 1975, then every year since 1999.

While I stay at resort hotels, I do speak fair Spanish, get into the city and the smaller towns,

and have had innumerable conversations with all sorts of people.

I have also spent over a year, during two trips, back in my youth,

backpacking throughout Latin America and the West Indies.

I have seen what poverty looks like.

I have seen filthy, emaciated, barefoot children, dressed in rags.

At dusk, in the downtowns of great cities,

families lay out ther cardboards to claim their sleeping spots on the sidewalks.

I have seen slums in Kingston, Rio, Baranquilla, Lima, etc,

with no electricity, no running water, no sanitation.

Hovels constructed out of zinc sheeting and cardboard.

I have also seen the wealthy neighbourhoods, often so close by,

that rival any in our own countries.

Cuba was just like that, before the revolution.

Today in Cuba, you will not find people starving, living in filth, or homeless.

Every child goes to school, wearing a clean uniform.

Levels of literacy and infant mortality rival our own.

Yes, there are shortages, rationing, and general dissatisfaction.

Cubans are proud of their accomplishments, but are also educated enough,

and aware enough, to know that much better can still be done.

They may not have much by our standards, nor by their own desires,

but to a large extent, they share what they do have,

and are working together to improve their lives.

It makes no sense to call the Cubans poor by using our standards of living as the basis of comparison.

Rather compare them to their neighbours.

Are the people of Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Colombia, Nicaragua, etc. living better?

Perhaps what some of these countries need is their own Fidel Castro!

[thechenman]

One last shot, before I retire from this thread...

Why does everyone keep referring to the terrible poverty of the Cuban people,

and then argue about who to blame this on, the Castros or the Americans?

Poverty and wealth are relative terms, and must be taken in context to have any meaning.

I have been to Cuba many times, first in 1975, then every year since 1999.

While I stay at resort hotels, I do speak fair Spanish, get into the city and the smaller towns,

and have had innumerable conversations with all sorts of people.

I have also spent over a year, during two trips, back in my youth,

backpacking throughout Latin America and the West Indies.

I have seen what poverty looks like.

I have seen filthy, emaciated, barefoot children, dressed in rags.

At dusk, in the downtowns of great cities,

families lay out ther cardboards to claim their sleeping spots on the sidewalks.

I have seen slums in Kingston, Rio, Baranquilla, Lima, etc,

with no electricity, no running water, no sanitation.

Hovels constructed out of zinc sheeting and cardboard.

I have also seen the wealthy neighbourhoods, often so close by,

that rival any in our own countries.

Cuba was just like that, before the revolution.

Today in Cuba, you will not find people starving, living in filth, or homeless.

Every child goes to school, wearing a clean uniform.

Levels of literacy and infant mortality rival our own.

Yes, there are shortages, rationing, and general dissatisfaction.

Cubans are proud of their accomplishments, but are also educated enough,

and aware enough, to know that much better can still be done.

They may not have much by our standards, nor by their own desires,

but to a large extent, they share what they do have,

and are working together to improve their lives.

It makes no sense to call the Cubans poor by using our standards of living as the basis of comparison.

Rather compare them to their neighbours.

Are the people of Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Colombia, Nicaragua, etc. living better?

Perhaps what some of these countries need is their own Fidel Castro!

I can't speak for others here, but personally...I would rather be uneducated, dirty, sick, poor and homeless in a free country with the opportunity to make my own destiny than be marginally fed, educated and housed under dictatorial rule. Freedom means a lot more to me than three square meals, classes and a roof over my head. Just my own opinion.

[MontrealRon]

I can't speak for others here, but personally...I would rather be uneducated, dirty, sick, poor and homeless in a free country with the opportunity to make my own destiny than be marginally fed, educated and housed under dictatorial rule. Freedom means a lot more to me than three square meals, classes and a roof over my head. Just my own opinion.

Thought I could retire, but no such luck...

Exactly how much "opportunity to make (his) own destiny" does an illiterate, unskilled, malnourished slum dweller really have? Slumdog Millionaire is not a true story, but even if it were, one person rising out of the morass does not a successful social system make.

As to your preference to living as a Haitian rather than a Cuban,

with all due respect,

just be thankful that you will never be put to the test.

[thechenman]

Thought I could retire, but no such luck...

Exactly how much "opportunity to make (his) own destiny" does an illiterate, unskilled, malnourished slum dweller really have? Slumdog Millionaire is not a true story, but even if it were, one person rising out of the morass does not a successful social system make.

As to your preference to living as a Haitian rather than a Cuban,

with all due respect,

just be thankful that you will never be put to the test.

Everyman makes his own destiny...every decision you make takes your life in a certain direction...some just have an easier road than others. How far you go is a product of yourself and your environment you operate in. One of them you are stuck with, the other you are not.

Just because you start uneducated does not mean you can't get yourself and education. Tens of housands of adults do it every year here in the U.S. If not university a trade school. There are always options and opportunities if you look for them. Skills are acquired and learned, you may not learn them as readily or easily as some with more opportunities, but it's not difficult to develop a skill set. I mean...we're not talking neurosurgery here.

Homeless people don't have to stay homeless. I would venture that the vast majority of homeless people have the goal of making themselves a home, one not made out of cardboard. True...many may never make it, but wouldn't you rather try to make it on your own than have things just handed to you with the caveat that you have no true freedom?

Who's talking about Slumdog Millionaire? Living in NYC, I see people with little education, immigrants from foreign countries that come with very little and work hard to make something of themselves. Many of them succeed in building themselves a better life than they had before. There is a reason people from all over the world come or try to come to America to find something better, to build something better, for themselves and/or their family. I'm not talking about a work of fiction or fortune smiling on you, and suddenly you win the lotto. I'm talking about people actively trying to make themselves better by coming to a place where they have freedoms they did not enjoy in their native countries. Oppportunities that they could nto get elsewhere. How many people do you see immigrating to Cuba?

We're not talking about a handful of success stories here, were talking about hundreds of thousands of success stories. True...what you definie as success can vary, but I would hazard to say that most immigrants that come here feel they are in a better posiition to pursue their dreams than before. And what make this possible? I'll tell you what makes this possible. U.S. governement policies, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights, freedom, elections, democracy, capitalism, free enterprise...and so much more.

You show me a Communist country that is as successful politcally and economically as the U.S. and I will eat my words. And don't tell me China. I am Chinese and was born in Taipei. My family is originally from Shanghai. I have visited Asia every summer of my childhood until I was in high school. I've seen China and what passes for Communism now, and what it was like in the 80s. It is now the facade of Communism...it is the Old Guard trying to maintain control. Capitalism will overtake it. It will overtake it because that is what the Chinese people want. Why do they want it? They want it becasue Capitalism provide them with an opportunity to make their lives better, something that was not available to them before. They want freedom from dictatorial rule, and they should have it. As should the Cubans.

Will the Embargo on Cuba work? Is it a good idea? To the former I say who knows. To the latter I say probably not. What I do know is that the Embargo is symblomatic. I think America has learned from the fall of East Germany and the former Soviet Union, that if America waits long enough...Communism will fall. I think the Chinese saw this too. That is a large part of why the regime has changed. Will North Korea last? I doubt it. Will Cuba last? I doubt it as well. Castro may have been in power longer than any U.S. President that has supported the embargo, but people die...and often with death comes change.

Sorry to ramble on here like this...I have gotten off topic. All I can say is that I know how I feel, and I know first hand how Communism works and how it has affected my family personally. And I wouldn't wish it on anybody.

[Ken Gargett]

Or at the very least be told you're full of crap (meant in the nicest possible way). Kind of like the gun rights advocates were told not too

long ago. Hey, wait a minute, I'm beginning to sense a trend - Ken hates America and Americans!

hang on!!! where did that come from? i most certainly do not. a few years back, i was within a whisker of moving there permenantly. absolutely love the place and the people (even occasionally cowgirl fans) - didn't particularly like LA as a city but otherwise, have always had a ball. the year i spent there was an absolute highlight of my life and i could very happily live there, especially places like DC.

the sealbashers? love the place and the people - have had family spend many years there, have a great many canadian friends. in the interests of full disclosue, did not enjoy my brief time in montreal and not fussed re the health system in quebec. but a small quibble.

kiwis? i've just had my fifth trip there for the year and still back again in a month. granted that there are some individual kiwis with whom i would prefer not to spend eternity but it is hands down the most beautiful country on the planet and has much going for it (mostly planes going to australia but...). As for the original discussion, will respond when i have a chance.

[Shelby07]

...and as for the original discussion, will respond when i have a chance.

Krieky! There's more?