Complexity: not what but why

[Stalebread]

Why do we, as cigar smokers, place such great value on complexity in our cigars? On how the cigar develops or evolves, if at all? Has that always been a standard by which cigars are judged? Does the same criteria (or should it be criterion?) exist in other areas? Food? Drink?

Take wine, for example. And this is not a rhetorical question. I don’t know enough about wine or spirits to be able to answer it. But, say, you open a bottle of good wine; maybe even world-class wine. You decant as appropriate. You pour that first glass. You sniff. No, I mean you really sniff with your nose way down in the glass. You taste. That first sip is rich and tantalizingly complex with just the right structure and a wonderful silky texture.

Now, that’s the first glass. Aside from having more time to breathe and open up a bit further, do you expect the last glass from that bottle to be essentially the same as the first or do you expect it in some way to be different? Do you expect, or even demand, that it evolves or develops in some way, from first glass to last glass?

Like I say, I don’t know the answer to this but since lots of folks use wine/cigar analogies, I thought I give it a shot.

What about chocolate cake? Assuming you like chocolate cake, are you disappointed if the last bite of that cake is not somehow different, more evolved, that the first bite? Does the last bite need to have new, subtle flavor differences from the first bite? I know that sounds goofy but it seems to me that we apply that reasoning and expectation to our cigars.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating for boring, one-dimensional cigars . . . from any country. I’m just wondering why we judge our cigars, sometimes very harshly, using these standards when I’m not convinced we use them in other, more-or-less parallel areas. Where did it come from?

Your thoughts . . . ?

[bunburyist]

Interesting question. In short, I'd say it's because once you've experienced the balanced complexity of a great cigar you know what they're capable of. You don't always want a subtle, complex smoke but for me they're the best.

For me, complexity and evolution are slightly different things, but they're something good cigars can do- so I guess we demand (or at least want) to have that as much as possible.

I can't think of any other 'edible' thing which is so disposed to evolving and changing colours. Great cigars can do this, so as discerning customers (), we expect it.

[El Presidente]

Now, that’s the first glass. Aside from having more time to breathe and open up a bit further, do you expect the last glass from that bottle to be essentially the same as the first or do you expect it in some way to be different? Do you expect, or even demand, that it evolves or develops in some way, from first glass to last glass?

Great aged wine, decanted will evolve for hours upon hours. It is the sheer mystery of this complexity/evolution which is prized.

Don't confuse complexity with necessary change or evolution. You can have a highly complex cigar with little change. A Great Hoyo Epi 1 of a few weeks ago came to mind. Milk coffee, citrus peel, honey comb, toasted tobacco, cream and wood. Who would want it to change! It would be a good cigar if it was any two of those charachters. Just not a great complex one. Now if it showed every one of those traits at a certain time with a core of say toasted tobacco...intriguing and complex.

[Stalebread]

Great aged wine, decanted will evolve for hours upon hours. It is the sheer mystery of this complexity/evolution which is prized.

Thanks. Did not realize that.

[Stalebread]

Don't confuse complexity with necessary change or evolution. You can have a highly complex cigar with little change. A Great Hoyo Epi 1 of a few weeks ago came to mind. Milk coffee, citrus peel, honey comb, toasted tobacco, cream and wood. Who would want it to change! It would be a good cigar if it was any two of those charachters. Just not a great complex one. Now if it showed every one of those traits at a certain time with a core of say toasted tobacco...intriguing and complex.

I get easily confused.

Let me see if I have this.

"Milk coffee, citrus peel, honey comb, toasted tobacco, cream and wood."

This is good. Acceptable. Complex but without evolution -- stays the same all the way through the cigar. Right?

"t would be a good cigar if it was any two of those charachters. Just not a great complex one."

OK. Not complex but good. And it does not change or evolve as it is smoked.

"Now if it showed every one of those traits at a certain time with a core of say toasted tobacco...intriguing and complex."

Intriguing and complex come when the cigar has a single, flavor as a top note on the foundation of toasted tobacco, but that top note changes as the cigar is smoked. I am assuming that the foundation could evolve also.

How'm I doing?

[El Presidente]

I get easily confused.

Let me see if I have this.

A "Milk coffee, citrus peel, honey comb, toasted tobacco, cream and wood."

This is good. Acceptable. Complex but without evolution -- stays the same all the way through the cigar. Right?

B "t would be a good cigar if it was any two of those charachters. Just not a great complex one."

OK. Not complex but good. And it does not change or evolve as it is smoked.

C "Now if it showed every one of those traits at a certain time with a core of say toasted tobacco...intriguing and complex."

Intriguing and complex come when the cigar has a single, flavor as a top note on the foundation of toasted tobacco, but that top note changes as the cigar is smoked. I am assuming that the foundation could evolve also.

How'm I doing?

lets call them cigars A B & C

A & C are Complex. You summised C well.

Without denigrating any cigar from any region. B have had plenty of NC B's (and plenty of Cubans).

Once or twice have i had a NC A. Had plenty of Cuban A's

I have never seen a NC "C". Had plenty of Cuban "C"

[anacostiakat]

Why do we, as cigar smokers, place such great value on complexity in our cigars? On how the cigar develops or evolves, if at all? Has that always been a standard by which cigars are judged?

...

Your thoughts . . . ?

Because it tastes better. . .

[dicko]

Cool thread! I particularly like bunburyist's distinction between 'complexity' and 'evolution'. I (a relative wine newbie and definite cigar newbie) like to think of complexity as a 'layering' of flavours at any given time.

At one level there might be spice, at another some fruit, or coffee/cream. Likewise a good shiraz might have a foreground of plum and berries and some oak, vanilla at another level. Or this might be closer to El Prez's notion of 'intriguing' ??

Evolution is differences in flavour/body as between different times - opening, 1st, 2nd, 3rd third etc

Could different flavours hitting different areas of the palate also be an aspect of complexity? Fruit on the mid palate, spice at the back of the throat? Or is this an aspect of your sensory system independent from the quality of the cigar or wine?

[Guest rob]

I wanted to participate in this thread... but its to bloody complicated for me

[Kangaroo495]

Why do we, as cigar smokers, place such great value on complexity in our cigars? On how the cigar develops or evolves, if at all? Has that always been a standard by which cigars are judged? Does the same criteria (or should it be criterion?) exist in other areas? Food? Drink?

Take wine, for example. And this is not a rhetorical question. I don’t know enough about wine or spirits to be able to answer it. But, say, you open a bottle of good wine; maybe even world-class wine. You decant as appropriate. You pour that first glass. You sniff. No, I mean you really sniff with your nose way down in the glass. You taste. That first sip is rich and tantalizingly complex with just the right structure and a wonderful silky texture.

Now, that’s the first glass. Aside from having more time to breathe and open up a bit further, do you expect the last glass from that bottle to be essentially the same as the first or do you expect it in some way to be different? Do you expect, or even demand, that it evolves or develops in some way, from first glass to last glass?

Like I say, I don’t know the answer to this but since lots of folks use wine/cigar analogies, I thought I give it a shot.

What about chocolate cake? Assuming you like chocolate cake, are you disappointed if the last bite of that cake is not somehow different, more evolved, that the first bite? Does the last bite need to have new, subtle flavor differences from the first bite? I know that sounds goofy but it seems to me that we apply that reasoning and expectation to our cigars.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating for boring, one-dimensional cigars . . . from any country. I’m just wondering why we judge our cigars, sometimes very harshly, using these standards when I’m not convinced we use them in other, more-or-less parallel areas. Where did it come from?

Your thoughts . . . ?

Mate, I like the way you think actually. Comparison to cake etc.

I think your question can be answered on a person-by-person basis only, as it's probably fairly subjective.

I don't have the tastebuds of Pres, or Ken, or Smithy who can probably all recognize milk-coffee, citrus peel, honey comb, toasted tobacco, cream and wood on the foundation of toasted tobacco - all in one cigar. Cigars are my hobby, so I'm constantly trying to train my tastebuds and I could probably get the coffee (not milk), tobacco obviously, cream and possibly wood (if it was a particularly strong characteristic). I also agree that an NC does not possess this.

I think in the end, what makes the Cuban Cigar a more enjoyable experience for me (with inexperienced tastebuds), is the fact that even I can pick up subtle changes in the flavour from third to third and well as experiencing an increased intesity throughout the length of the stick. I recongnized this fact the first time I picked up a Cuban cigar after a year or so of smoking only NCs.

You question is why do we need that? The answer is that nobody needs it. It's simply more enjoyable to a larger group of smokers, and therefore perceived as "good". If you don't like it, or it's not important, then there's nothing to worry about. You're not missing out on anything. You're still enjoying your cigars like the rest of us.

But your mere presence on the forum suggests that Cuban cigars do hold some special place for you - that there's something alluring about them which you really enjoy. What is it?

[bunburyist]

I wanted to participate in this thread... but its to bloody complicated for me

maybe you'll evolve, and all will become clear.

...

...

sorry....

[anacostiakat]

maybe you'll evolve, and all will become clear.

...

...

sorry....

Evolve! Or you will be assimilated!

[Colt45]

Great cigars can do this, so as discerning customers (), we expect it.

My thought as well - once accustomed to these traits, I think we look for them in all cigars - even in varying degrees of intensity.

[tigger]

I wanted to participate in this thread... but its to bloody complicated for me

It's evolving nicely though.

Cuban thread, without a doubt.

[aavkk]

I guess a comlex piece of cake that included evolution would be great but not necessary because its over in 2 minutes. If I am going to sit down and smoke a cigar for 2 hours it needs to capture my attention, be intriguing and interesting. The minute I feel like I am going through the motions I pitch a cigar and reach for another. I am difficult to please and very very rarely these days do I reach for a NC, simply because even if it tastes like chocolate cake I demand more than that one singluar flavor for 2 hours.

If chocolate cake had the nutritional benefits of spinach and none of the bad of cake than I would still be hardpressed to take a bite a minute for 2 hours much like you would puff on a churchill or lonsdale.

[zuma]

What about chocolate cake? Assuming you like chocolate cake, are you disappointed if the last bite of that cake is not somehow different, more evolved, that the first bite? Does the last bite need to have new, subtle flavor differences from the first bite? I know that sounds goofy but it seems to me that we apply that reasoning and expectation to our cigars.

Oh, chocolate cake! I can't possibly imagine a simple chocolate cake without some sort of icing/frosting. Some masterpieces of delight have oh so many layers. The complexity can be enjoyed in a single bite or, as my son does, spreading the complexity in the time domain (eating each bit separately).

Another analogy: Cigars are like cheese. If you are used to industrial cheeses (e.g., sprinkle parmesan or spray-on cheddar), you may not enjoy the complexity of a real Parmigiano-Reggiano and would surely be repelled at the first sight, smell and taste of Roquefort.

IMHO, and although we can subsist with single-flavour experiences, we are prone to seek more complex gustatory experiences. Who likes to eat exactly the same thing every meal of every day of the week? yet if we have nothing else we'll live...

[jfury76]

I like this thread--really good points brought up about personal matters of taste. Complexity may be inherently there in the stick but one may not be capable of discerning it. That is the most troubling thing about smoking cigars in general.

I tend to like what many FOH members would consider less complex sticks that are more approachable when young--SLR Regios and HDM Epi 2 just to name a couple. Maybe I haven't developed my palate yet but I like the honey sweetness, rich stewed fruit, and, of course, that fine Vuelta Abajo tobacco taste. It comes down to personal choice--some have the time, money, palate, etc. to invest in other marcas and more complex sticks. As for me, I'll take a habano that provides the above-mentioned flavors in a robusto or similar format.

[PigFish]

First off, this is a great topic. I have written several threads on tastes and observation that I have abandoned for one reason or another and I like to see others working along the same lines. Good thread Amigo!

I look at a great cigar from many different angles. I am not going to break them down but they are as follows:

Complexity

Constitution

Character

Balance

Finish

Aftertaste

and Evolution

Additionally there is more than just taste to a cigar, there are characteristics (as from the above list) and sensations. A truly great cigar can do one or more well. A robust monotonic cigar can be a great cigar as can a balanced complex cigar with character!!! Complexity in and of itself does not make a great cigar, but it certainly adds to it. -Piggy

[Ethernut]

In my uneducated estimation, I dont measure Chocolate Cake in any wide varying measure of complexity. (I'm not a wine drinker so I cant comment there). When I eat chocolate cake, the first thing that comes to mind is, "is it good"? Yes/No. If no, then trash it politely, if Yes then eat it and smile. Rarely have I had noteworthy chocolate cake.

Cigars on the other hand have all kinds of personalities. And as someone eloquently put it, once you've had a great cigar the DEMANDS your attention, and as you are smoking it you are sitting there dumbfounded staring at it like an idiot, trying to figure out how something so simple is so good. Then you understand why you want complexity in a cigar.

[Jimmy2]

Read what it says below in big black letters..

[Buch0]

I think the element of mystery one has before smoking a cigar is what actually entices alot of us to plan on smoking the cigar in the first place. Whether this element falls into complexcity category or not is a different story but I tend to think that most of us will sit down and look forward to finding out what new aromas or tastes the cigar has to offer, rather than sitting down to enjoy an expected flavour profile that has been previously discovered.

The unique aura that a great CC exhibits and the fact that not every stick is the same (for better or worse) is a big part of the cigar experience as a whole. I guess we don't all want to know what lies around the corner, hence complexity being seen amongst us enthusiasts as a positive trait??

[Colt45]

I guess we don't all want to know what lies around the corner, hence complexity being seen amongst us enthusiasts as a positive trait??

Well, given a choice between monotony or complexity, which would many of us choose?

[OZCUBAN]

Read what it says below in big black letters..

Well said THE DEFENSE REST YOUR HONOUR

[Stalebread]

But your mere presence on the forum suggests that Cuban cigars do hold some special place for you - that there's something alluring about them which you really enjoy. What is it?

Me? Of course I like Cuban cigars. I've never said otherwise. An '03 Sir Winston. The '05 RA Belicosos. Two of my all time favorite cigars. Probably the best cigar I've smoked to date was a Upmann Monarchs A/T from '98. What an amazing cigar! Rich. Smooth. Not a glimpse of harshness anywhere. Hints of different flavors (the top notes) coming and going with each puff although I'd be hard pressed to name the flavor.

It's just that I like to pretend that I have, and act on, a fairly broad world-view. So I like cigars from many different growing regions. So be it.

[gsmoke]

Bringing up the analogy of food, the expectation of complexity, I think, comes in the combination of flavors in a particular dish. Or even to take it closer to the analogy of a 2-hour cigar, one would probably expect that a quality meal displays a variety of flavors across the various courses of the meal. From appetizer to main course to dessert -- then add in an apertif, wine or cocktail, dessert wine, or a cup of coffee and you have a cornucopia of flavors, tastes, and experiences. Much like a brilliant cigar.

So, in my opinion, to answer your first question: yes, I think we do expect complexity, variety, and evolution in more than just cigars. There are just different measures of that complexity depending on what you're involved in.

Very nice discussion. I think I'm slowly discovering that tasting things is probably what I'm most passionate about. From coffee to wine to spirits to cigars -- I just love things of quality. Must be why I'm broke.