I was speaking to a habanos old timer yesterday.

[El Presidente]

I was speaking to a Habanos old timer yesterday. He had his first Cuban cigar in 1958 and has bought a box of Cuban cigars every week of his life since then. He smokes predominantly Churchills but enjoys Monte 2's, Cohiba Robusto's and the occasional Upmann Winston.

He made a point yesterday of how little he was enjoying the young 07/08 cigars. When I asked why he said that he found the sweetness of the young tobacco to be "cloying". He much preferred the pure tobacco and spice of fresh boxes from the 60's, 70's and 80's. In his words "the true cuban flavour"

For those of you who have clocked up some time with cigars and can recall smoking fresh cigars from the 70's 80's or prior. What was your impression of the flavour of those cigars (then) and compare them to todays 07/08 cigars.

Many of us have had aged examples from that time. However I would love to hear about your thoughts and memories of what a "Fresh" cigar from that period tasted like.

[laficion]

Hey Rob, now you're really going to get me started but I promise to make it short;

Yes the cigars were very different at that time, the tobacco too, the plant has changed

a lot since then, of course It's better now that the plant is more resistant to the blue mould

but the taste has changed from the great Corojo leaf of the 70's to today's diferent hybrids. I started

to smoke Habanos in 1970 and I remember very well of the different tastes that all the brands had.

they were all quit unique to the brands,.Example, Partagas had a very strong barnyard dominate earthy

taste, Sancho Panza I loved for it's very silky flavors of café creme that I don't find anymore It's just

another taste. La gloria Cubana was one of the most honeyish cigar of all the brands with great notes

of floral. RGonzales was on the same notes as the SP's . then you had RyJ which were very strong

tobacco tastes, strong pepper and very animal. as were Quinteros, The Bolivar gold medal ahhhh,

what can I say about that cigar aside the fact that you could not smoke that cigar inside of any house

without stinking it up for a week but it was so flavorfull and rich same with the RyJ Cazadores,

strong stuff . then you had the unique cigars like Maria Guerrero that tasted like H upmann sir

Winstons today, Davidoff & Dunhill's were a treat evern more at the time, creamy leather coco

mixed with dark coffee and very easy and flavorful smokes . I find that they still have the power

today but have lost that creamy floral notes. But the part that stands out the most today is the

the fact that the brands do not have that big difference that they had between them at the time.

they really had a blend that did not vary.

Today , it can be very easy to mistake a brand for another if it doesn't have the ring on.

That's why,today,a blind test on Habanos can be very interesting.

[thechenman]

Absolutely fascinating. Thanks for sharing your experience and insight.

[Ginseng]

I started to smoke Habanos in 1970 and I remember very well of the different tastes that all the brands had. they were all quit unique to the brands,.Example, Partagas had a very strong barnyard dominate earthy taste, Sancho Panza I loved for it's very silky flavors of café creme that I don't find anymore It's just another taste. La gloria Cubana was one of the most honeyish cigar of all the brands with great notes of floral. RGonzales was on the same notes as the SP's . then you had RyJ which were very strong tobacco tastes, strong pepper and very animal. as were Quinteros, The Bolivar gold medal ahhhh, what can I say about that cigar aside the fact that you could not smoke that cigar inside of any house without stinking it up for a week but it was so flavorfull and rich same with the RyJ Cazadores, strong stuff . then you had the unique cigars like Maria Guerrero that tasted like H upmann sir Winstons today, Davidoff & Dunhill's were a treat evern more at the time, creamy leather coco mixed with dark coffee and very easy and flavorful smokes .

But the part that stands out the most today is the the fact that the brands do not have that big difference that they had between them at the time. they really had a blend that did not vary. Today , it can be very easy to mistake a brand for another if it doesn't have the ring on.

That's why,today,a blind test on Habanos can be very interesting.

Fascinating post, sir. It's interesting how the smokers of "this" generation (meaning starting in the last 10 years) regard current production. Most consider the late 2005 and onward cigars to be wonderful. I really enjoy them as well. These are the only flavors I've known and if they are consistent and balanced (whether strong or mild), then I'm a happy man. Absolutely I agree that standard production is generally quite difficult to guess. For us single-decade smokers, it can have the effect of making us second guess our skills at discriminating the marcas when in fact, as you noted, the job may actually be much, much harder today than it was 30 years ago. I've really only noticed significant distinctiveness when smoking special releases such as regionals and limitadas, and the Cohiba Maduro 5. Other than that, in one sense, a Habanos is a Habanos. The differences have apparently become more subtle and inconsistent...perhaps to the degree where it no longer becomes meaningful for the average smoker to attempt to discern them.

I'm afraid that those glory days are most likely gone. As Habanos have attained greater popularity as a lifestyle item, substantial distinctiveness becomes a liability. Better to make a variety of different-looking cigar+packaging products to appeal to the visual aesthetic sense and have them be broadly very similar in smoking properties. Under this model, as long as the product is of good quality, it doesn't matter whether you're picking up a Mag46 tubos at duty-free or a PSD4 at your local tobacconist. Like MacDonalds, you're assured of a reliable if unexciting experience.

Unless HSA and the Station of Tobacco make a concerted effort to generate distinctive tobacco and products (with respect to their personality) then it will not happen. Call me a pessimist, but it seems to me that this is the road we're on.

Wilkey

[Colt45]

Unless HSA and the Station of Tobacco make a concerted effort to generate distinctive tobacco and products (with respect to their personality) then it will not happen. Call me a pessimist, but it seems to me that this is the road we're on.

Broken record on - or open up competition / allow some privatization - Broken record off.

Great posts, gents.

[terrantheman]

Hey Rob, now you're really going to get me started but I promise to make it short;

Yes the cigars were very different at that time, the tobacco too, the plant has changed

a lot since then, of course It's better now that the plant is more resistant to the blue mould

but the taste has changed from the great Corojo leaf of the 70's to today's diferent hybrids. I started

to smoke Habanos in 1970 and I remember very well of the different tastes that all the brands had.

they were all quit unique to the brands,.Example, Partagas had a very strong barnyard dominate earthy

taste, Sancho Panza I loved for it's very silky flavors of café creme that I don't find anymore It's just

another taste. La gloria Cubana was one of the most honeyish cigar of all the brands with great notes

of floral. RGonzales was on the same notes as the SP's . then you had RyJ which were very strong

tobacco tastes, strong pepper and very animal. as were Quinteros, The Bolivar gold medal ahhhh,

what can I say about that cigar aside the fact that you could not smoke that cigar inside of any house

without stinking it up for a week but it was so flavorfull and rich same with the RyJ Cazadores,

strong stuff . then you had the unique cigars like Maria Guerrero that tasted like H upmann sir

Winstons today, Davidoff & Dunhill's were a treat evern more at the time, creamy leather coco

mixed with dark coffee and very easy and flavorful smokes . I find that they still have the power

today but have lost that creamy floral notes. But the part that stands out the most today is the

the fact that the brands do not have that big difference that they had between them at the time.

they really had a blend that did not vary.

Today , it can be very easy to mistake a brand for another if it doesn't have the ring on.

That's why,today,a blind test on Habanos can be very interesting.

Man that was really informative, thank you very much!

[maalouly]

Guy! I am impressed! thank you for the great information.

[Stalebread]

Very interesting stuff, Gentlemen.

[sounddust]

Great insight Guy. I was talking to a relatively new(<15 years) smoker last week, and he mentioned how he was always trying to get his hands on 1st run Trinidads from '98 I think, as he was adamant that they are far superior to the current productions due to the fact that they were manufactured in El Laguito. I can't really add any constructive insight as I only started seriously smoking about 4 years ago, but I guess that there are still opportunities for new smokers to look back someday and reminisce and compare notes, albeit in a different way. Monte Opens anyone?

[El Presidente]

Guy, thank you for such a passionate and informative post

I have spent many hours with rollers who were around in the 40's, 50's 60's. They remember fondly of the owners of the different Marques walking around the floor trying tobacco and ensuring blends were as they wanted. They recalled the passion, the level of excellence insisted upon. They recalled dressing up in hats and best long sleeved shirts to go to work. They remember arguments amongst the rollers at lunch break where they discussed the pro's and con's of the tobacco crop they were using. They would purchase other Marques and share them around to compare which was the smoothest, the strongest, the most balanced.

Natiionization destroyed much of that. The passion diminished. They themselves (at least the ones I have spoken to) were very much pro Castro in the beginning and the truth be told for many years. They witnessed the changes and at first they believed they could maintain the integrity of the blends. Yet every year the control of blend became less ad less. The focus was production. The missing element was the owners passion and direct control of the entire process.

Most of these rollers retired during the 80's and 90's. Some of the best tmes I have had is drinking a few bottles of Santiago with them over long afternoons and early mornings.

Like Colt I believe and hope that there will come a day when passionate Cubans privateers are able to enter the Cigar world to stamp their own individual nuances in order to produce great cigars. I am not diminishing what is being produced today, however passion is the greatest force of creativity and all of us who are "keepers of the flame" seek the ulitmate experience which in itself will evolve over time.

[laficion]

Guy, thank you for such a passionate and informative post

I have spent many hours with rollers who were around in the 40's, 50's 60's. They remember fondly of the owners of the different Marques walking around the floor trying tobacco and ensuring blends were as they wanted. They recalled the passion, the level of excellence insisted upon. They recalled dressing up in hats and best long sleeved shirts to go to work. They remember arguments amongst the rollers at lunch break where they discussed the pro's and con's of the tobacco crop they were using. They would purchase other Marques and share them around to compare which was the smoothest, the strongest, the most balanced.

Natiionization destroyed much of that. The passion diminished. They themselves (at least the ones I have spoken to) were very much pro Castro in the beginning and the truth be told for many years. They witnessed the changes and at first they believed they could maintain the integrity of the blends. Yet every year the control of blend became less ad less. The focus was production. The missing element was the owners passion and direct control of the entire process.

Most of these rollers retired during the 80's and 90's. Some of the best tmes I have had is drinking a few bottles of Santiago with them over long afternoons and early mornings.

Like Colt I believe and hope that there will come a day when passionate Cubans privateers are able to enter the Cigar world to stamp their own individual nuances in order to produce great cigars. I am not diminishing what is being produced today, however passion is the greatest force of creativity and all of us who are "keepers of the flame" seek the ulitmate experience which in itself will evolve over time.

Rob, I agree with you 100% but It's not a reason to get carried away either with

how those poor owners of the brands tried so hard to keep the house rolling (punt LOL)

I agree with you on the workers and the passion they had, but the owners, well, at the

end of the 40's and the 50's, the big owners of all the major brands were American Companies,

like the "Americn Tobacco Co. " who owned almost all of the big brand; they are the ones who

came out with all the BS about the "clear Havana" and were not interested in the real PUROS,

like the brand "La Corona" who shipped the most part of their tobacco to the US and and rolled

all the cigars in a bigBonded warehouse in Trenton NJ. or like the famous HENRY CLAY brand that made

some of It's most renowned vitolas with tobacco from Florida. the cigars finally came back

to what they were meant to be after the revolution, but then again all was not perfect as we all know.

So, what I'm getting at is that Cuba has a long history in which not everything always went well.

American influence and tastes almost killed the pure havana at the time and the revolution has almost

killed it's personality,. Maybe today both parts can start to become a little smarter

and get back to making Habanos that have a real cuban soul and personality again. well, I can't say that

with the Monty OPEN, we have a good start, but there's still hope. sorry for being so

long but I'm very passionate about all this. Thanks for reading me out , Ciao

[gerem]

Merci beaucoup Guy for all that info!!!

[EricM]

Great info but in some ways a bit dis hearting that what were smoking today is only a cheap immitation of the greatness it once was. I guess in some ways for us new smokers it's better we never experienced it.

[Colt45]

Great info but in some ways a bit dis hearting that what were smoking today is only a cheap immitation of the greatness it once was. I guess in some ways for us new smokers it's better we never experienced it.

Personally, I don't think I'd go so far as to call today's cigars cheap imitations. Today's cigars are today's cigars, and there are many great tasting

ones coming out of Havana. When we think about all the things that go into the creation of a cigar, I don't think that I could ever really expect them

to be exactly the same all the time.

But for me, the key to the posts are marque / blend identity. There are some cigars that maintain their marque's indentity well, at least in my opinion.

Usually, there is no confusing any of the Partagas SdC line with anything else. Or I'd be hard pressed to think the Cohiba Robusto I smoked last

week could have been something other. But, as members have pointed out, it does seem that the blends of many marques are becoming more

alike and less and less identifiable as an individual marque or cigar within that marque.

Guy, I don't have your historical perspective re the history of the Havana cigar, and I bow to your knowledge, but it's my understanding that the clear

Havana was simply a cigar rolled in the U.S. using Cuban tobacco. Tobacco is a crop / commodity which is still traded today in countries other than Cuba.

Back in the day, was a Montecristo not truly a Montecristo, Partagas a Partagas? And though I like the thought of a producer having their own farm,

and controlling the process from start to finish, I'd be happy to try a clear Havana made today

[jfury76]

What a wealth of information on this thread. I wish that I could add something useful, but as I cannot, I just would like to say thank you.

[aavkk]

What a wealth of information on this thread. I wish that I could add something useful, but as I cannot, I just would like to say thank you.

couldnt have said it better, I second this and urge anyone having near Guy's experience on the subject to chime in. I really enjoy reading these posts.

[sepp]

Wow! Nothing to add but what an incredible discussion... thanks all for sharing

[laficion]

Colt, I clearly agree with all that you said, I find that the Habanos are just as good if not

better then before, I 'm just saying that the flavor profiles have changed in the blends and are

very far from the tastes of the 70's and 80's , even some of the 90's, I'm far from believeing

that we are today, smoking cheap immitations, they are still some of the best cigars in the world.

They just do not have that taste that was originally intented for the brand compared to what it used

to be in those years just after the revolution. even if they still use the old books with the original

blends, with the system they use and with nobody really giving a good flying hoot, how can the blends

be respected ?? Yes , a monty is still a Monty, a Partagas is still a Partagas (almost LOL) and that

is a diffilcult job to do seening all the changes that have been made with the tobacco strains and

the cultivating of the plant. the tobacco change has a very important part of all this. I'm sure that if you smoked a cigar that was made in the 1890's, you would find it disgusting . Now , to come

back to the clear Havanas, sure, tobacco is a commodity that is still traded today, but the point of

what I said , is not that, I'm saying that the clear Havanas was something invented by the big

tobacco companies to make good for their other cigar companies in the states ,or else, how could

cigars like Robert Burns, Muriel, white Owl and so many others stay in business if their cigars

were very inferior to the cubans, all of these brands were owned by the same that owned the

major factories in Cuba, at the time there was no DR, HON, NIC, CR, tobaccos to replace the

Havanas, Today they can. they are still inferior,but that's another story LOL At the time, a major part of the imported tobacco came from Sumatra, or the Engish coloney of Borneo, or tobacco grown in the

US. all of this did not stand to the cuban Tobacco. and to make things worse they were mixing

tobaccos in certain cuban brands, It was their company anyway, Right ? As I said, at the time the

American companies almost killed the Havana and the revolution It's soul and personality.I think

that in the future, there will be great things ahead, If everybody just gets smart and keeps

RESPECTING the product. Ciao

[Wiley]

What a great thread! Thanks all! Such great information and perspectives!

[Colt45]

Colt, I clearly agree with all that you said, I find that the Habanos are just as good if not

better then before, I 'm just saying that the flavor profiles have changed in the blends and are

very far from the tastes of the 70's and 80's , even some of the 90's

No doubt Guy, no doubt. I wish I could comment on the cigars pre and immediately post nationalization, as to how they compare to today's cigars,

but alas, I just don't have the breadth of experience.

I'd love to be able to smoke one from each era - let's say a Partagas in the dalia format - each at their peak of flavor, and see what the differences,

or perhaps similarities might be.

[cigarros]

Guy! As always it is pleasant to read yours posts! No doubts that Habanos tobacco quality varies at the time! + revolution economics gives an occasion to meditations

I assured that sooner or later on Cuba there will be positive changes in tobacco cultivation & right fermentation & best selection

And many of us too can tell to our children: hey, thirty years ago Cuba did cigars of absolutely other quality! Too bad than now! Time treats all. There is no rose without a thorn

[fryguy]

Hey Rob, now you're really going to get me started but I promise to make it short;

Yes the cigars were very different at that time, the tobacco too, the plant has changed

a lot since then, of course It's better now that the plant is more resistant to the blue mould

but the taste has changed from the great Corojo leaf of the 70's to today's diferent hybrids. I started

to smoke Habanos in 1970 and I remember very well of the different tastes that all the brands had.

they were all quit unique to the brands,.Example, Partagas had a very strong barnyard dominate earthy

taste, Sancho Panza I loved for it's very silky flavors of café creme that I don't find anymore It's just

another taste. La gloria Cubana was one of the most honeyish cigar of all the brands with great notes

of floral. RGonzales was on the same notes as the SP's . then you had RyJ which were very strong

tobacco tastes, strong pepper and very animal. as were Quinteros, The Bolivar gold medal ahhhh,

what can I say about that cigar aside the fact that you could not smoke that cigar inside of any house

without stinking it up for a week but it was so flavorfull and rich same with the RyJ Cazadores,

strong stuff . then you had the unique cigars like Maria Guerrero that tasted like H upmann sir

Winstons today, Davidoff & Dunhill's were a treat evern more at the time, creamy leather coco

mixed with dark coffee and very easy and flavorful smokes . I find that they still have the power

today but have lost that creamy floral notes. But the part that stands out the most today is the

the fact that the brands do not have that big difference that they had between them at the time.

they really had a blend that did not vary.

Today , it can be very easy to mistake a brand for another if it doesn't have the ring on.

That's why,today,a blind test on Habanos can be very interesting.

Guy....WOW... Another wonderful post! You certainly have one of the most interesting and elegant styles of writing (and comical when the time is right!) and I always enjoy reading, and learning from your works. You are truly a role model for the newer members of the forum, such as myself, not to mention an asset to ALL members of the forum!

Keep up the great work!! Hopefully in twenty or thirty years I will be able to look back and reminisce about the fond memories of some of my favorite cigars of the past.

[frenchkiwi]

One thing that maybe should be emphasised about changing flavours over the decades... cigars are only a couple of (fermentation, blending) steps away from straight agricultural produce.

With industrialisation and all that means for growing tobacco (fertilisers, cross-breeding, GE etc) as well as the resulting soil impoverishment and natural variations in the climate, you are going to get some different tasting plants on the other end. This is inevitable and not necessarily undesirable (like evolution? ;-) !!

In the past 50 years, changes in climate, soil and plant varieties, and production process have been more exponential than incremental - you'll hear this from farmers the world over - so it's a wonder that the current brands still taste anything like the stuff from previous decades ?!

Have improvements in knowledge/technology outbalanced climate variability (eg extra hurricanes!!) and soil impoverishment etc? If so, have cigars improved overall as a product or are they losing out to an industrialised race-to-the-bottom? Well i suppose that depends on where the delicate balance between the focus on Quantity or Quality is at chez Habanos S.A. and their farmers/rollers/blenders etc.

Does anyone out there have a handle on this??

[my 2c on privatisation -- doesn't necessarily mean improvement in quality, could mean lots of hyped up marketing and funky packaging on inferior products, as the trend towards consumerism has been based more on image than substance for just about anything, including items where you think taste would matter most!!! (big, beautiful, but utterly tasteless fruit etc) -- the race to the bottom.]

[bassman]

Facinating discussion. All I can say is I started smoking Habanos in 1996, and was able to smoke examples of pre 95 production cigars until a couple years ago. The difference in strength & intensity of flavor was profound. The cigars made a bit of a comeback with 02 & early 03 production and again since 06 but are still nowhere near that early 90s level.

[jtvrtas]

Absolutely great post! FOH forum members are a wealth of information. Thanks for sharing.