so I bought a Jeep.

[El Presidente]

The topic of discussion over the weekend with my brothers was the US Auto (proposed) bailout.

I drive a Jeep JK 4 dr Wrangler (Diesal). I also own a Nissa Patrol 4x4, a Landrover Discovey Diesal (old 1996), purchased Lise a Mitsubishi Outlander (4x4 pretender).

The Landrover is well...my version of a handicapped child. I love it intensely to the point I can't get rid of it. I love its limitations and love more its strengths. Still it is a labour of love. I have spent more on it than I dare to admit but it still brings a smile to my face. I should sell it. The British have no right building cars.

The Japanese cars in my stable are rocks. Solid. They lack personality to the max but they get the job done in the toughest of environments. Everything works.

My Jeep I love the thing. Yet in the 18 months I have owned it from new I have received more recall notices than phonecalls from my mother. Surely to God you can build a car without the level of hassles I have had. Trips to the dealer with various annoying issues is met with "its a jeep thing". The last time I left the dealership after that comment the Jeep Service consultant had a jeep cap protruding from his mouth.

How did it come to this point? I note the Japanes cars I have are made in Japan, not sure how those manufactured elsewhere stack up.

Just my rant for the day.

[Don Candido]

How did it come to this point? I note the Japanes cars I have are made in Japan, not sure how those manufactured elsewhere stack up.

American Automakers have been on this path for a very long time. There have been multiple times I was shopping for a car in the past 20 years, when I was planning to buy American. The problem is when I take a little closer look comparing multiple vehicles, generally the US autos are inferior product, made with inferior manufacturing processes, building cars without the features people want; poor quality control comes standard. And, they cost too much.

The US Govt should not give them a dime. When I think of all the workers the automakers have already screwed, it is hard to take this stance. But we can't prop up a loosing business forever. If we do give any money, we are delaying the inevitable. We need to face the pain and move on now instead of nationalizing the Auto Industry.

Capitalism will work beautifully here, if they let it. These companies need to go into bankruptcy and reorganization. The management all needs to be booted. Before they make another vehicle, they should design and build a few people really want to buy.

Oh yeah - I owned a Jeep. Loved it. Broke down all the time!

[Jimmy2]

Just shot a spark plug from my head 5.4 2001 Ford Lightning only 24,000 miles !!!!! Ford is having problems with this on there 4.6 too from 1998 to 2003 its a joke.Now i have to get the head tapped and will be paying it out of my own pocket when ford should be fixing this.4 threads to hold the plug in on there 5.4 heads what a joke !!!! Bad design and who has to pay the buyer as always!!!

[anacostiakat]

I have a Toyota 2004 Minivan that we use to haul the dogs around. It has had about four recall notices of varying severity. Honestly thinking of buying a Honda next time.

As for the US auto industry; I think they should be treated exactly like the airlines were.

[SmokinLightning]

Just shot a spark plug from my head 5.4 2001 Ford Lightning only 24,000 miles !!!!! Ford is having problems with this on there 4.6 too from 1998 to 2003 its a joke.Now i have to get the head tapped and will be paying it out of my own pocket when ford should be fixing this.4 threads to hold the plug in on there 5.4 heads what a joke !!!! Bad design and who has to pay the buyer as always!!!

Common problem with the 1999 - 2002 Lightnings... the 2003-2004 had 8 threads. Pretty stupid putting 4 threads in an aluminum head on a high compression engine I agree.

[GoSteelers]

Hey Prez,

I had an 89 Wagoneer, in 2003 they were still sending me recall notices.

I stopped thinking of it as inferior craftsmanship and started thinking of it as Jeep taking care of the safety of their consumers.

[Tampa1257]

American Automakers have been on this path for a very long time. There have been multiple times I was shopping for a car in the past 20 years, when I was planning to buy American. The problem is when I take a little closer look comparing multiple vehicles, generally the US autos are inferior product, made with inferior manufacturing processes, building cars without the features people want; poor quality control comes standard. And, they cost too much.

These companies need to go into bankruptcy and reorganization. The management all needs to be booted. Before they make another vehicle, they should design and build a few people really want to buy.

DC, While I was in the Auto Industry for many years, the attitude you just displayed is normal for a consumer (15 years ago), The Perception that companies such as Honda, Toyota, Nissan make a higher quality vehicle than the American Manufacturers is now a false one. Check out 3rd party sources such as Consumers Reports and JD Powers for the best buys and highest quality consumer reviews and you will find out that GM ownes 5 out of the top 10 and that Honda, Toyota and Nissan are not even rated a best buy any more.

Sure people want options and convinences, they also want a low cost. You go shop a Honda Dealer and you find a model you like, you will also find that it has 2 options packages, either it is a base level or it is a equipped model, in other words, you have no real choice, this is what they have, take it or leave it. As far as discounts go, the MSRP is lower now on all vehicles and the Rebates are also lower. Anyone that thinks that taking 0% financing is saving them money vs using whatever rebates and incentives that are available needs to seriously review their trade purchase trend (Normally 2.8-3.6 years), all 0% financing will do for you is get you into serious negitive equity on your trade.

I agree that the Auto Industry should be allowed to go Bankrupt. WHY? By allowing the Auto Industry to go bankrupt, you BREAK the Stranglehold that the Labor Unions have on them. If you break the Unions, the Auto Manufactures could afford to build a vehicle that meets the needs and desires that the consumers want. Only one issue with this, is that the Democratic base is built upon the Union members and the Democrats can not afford to lose their backing by losing the Unions.

They best thing for the Auto Industry would be to allow them to go into Bankruptcy, break the Unions and bring out more fuel alternative vehicles.

[Jay Hemingway]

my best friend owns an 01 ford lightning. he is also a member of ford truck world, JLO (jersey lightning owners) and the mighty "11 Second Club" . he must have every single mod/upgrade that you can possibly put on that thing. he has won numerous awards and trophy's for best in show. we actually just got done porting and polishing the blower. from all the time we have spent working on it, at lightning meets, shows, JDM track day( JDM rents english town raceway park for an entire day and only lightnings can run there. it's pretty bad ass to see over 200+ lightnings in one place tearing shite up!) i have never heard of any spark plug shooting problems. not even on any of the other lightings in the clubs. i am thinking it must be a fluke. i am wondering why ford will not fix this?

i can tell you that he blew his first engine out (on the same day i bought my WRX,lol i actually picked him up on the side of the road in my new car) but there was at least 100k + miles on it and with more than 500+ hrspwr not used sparingly, i am not suprised it happened. he dropped $3,500. at JDM and they had a new engine installed 2 days later.

those lightnings are beasts for sure, especially my boy's. this thing has so much freaking power it's scary. i love the way the blower howls and it sounds like an airplane about to take off.

one of the last upgrades that was put on was the exhaust (yea it would have been one of the first if it was mine). as soon as it was installed he swung by and scooped me up. he let me drive so i could hear it and feel it. i took it over to rt 70 (a 50 mph road) so i could open her up. his freakin lighting has so much boost and power running through it, when i got to the main road and floored the pedal, the pressure blew the exhaust right off!!!! lol

he had to eventually have the exhaust welded to stop the thing from blowing off the header.lol

love me those lightings man!

good luck with yours jimmy.

[Don Candido]

Tampa,

I am no fan of Unions in general. That being said, the "stranglehold" they have on the industry is not enough to take the industry down. Management is ultimately responsible. Further, even if the Unions are playing a large roll in this debacle, management had to first agree to a contract they could not afford to support, which means it is ultimately still the management.

Further, if the quality is comparable on american cars now, why before this meltdown were American sales so much worse the European and Asian car sales in the US? My wife and I just bought a minivan. We did research (including Consumer Reports). Reviews had Toyota and Honda at the top with nothing too close. The minivan market is different than most cars. The spending is less descretional than most auto purchases. The US would have to be competing at or very near the top of this one niche, to show they are really building competitive vehicles.

You are right my opinion about quality and value is fifteen years old (at least). The problem is, I believe it is still true.

DC

[cvm4]

Check out 3rd party sources such as Consumers Reports and JD Powers for the best buys and highest quality consumer reviews and you will find out that GM owns 5 out of the top 10 and that Honda, Toyota and Nissan are not even rated a best buy any more.

They're a best buy because I can get a current model year Impala SS for very low 20's. Helluva buy!

[Jimmy2]

Many Lightings have shot there plugs out of the heads its a know thing must be hundreds of them that I know of .

But not only lightnings as the 5.4 heads are the same as the ones in there other cars faulty head design.

I love Unions more power to them and its not there fault its the people who run the companies fault they just plan suck and should stop the blame game.

This country was built by Unions and we are much better trained than non Union i can atest to that first hand.

[JeepCop]

Yeah, I hate Jeeps too.

[Colt45]

Just my rant for the day.

Harden the f@#k up, whinger.

[Fishhound]

I love Unions more power to them and its not there fault its the people who run the companies fault they just plan suck and should stop the blame game.

This country was built by Unions and we are much better trained than non Union i can atest to that first hand.

I'm with you on that one Jimmy. I just love it when people tell me how it is to walk in my shoes.

Back to the topic, Chrysler has made some of the worst cars and I would never buy another one.

[First Lady]

The topic of discussion over the weekend with my brothers was the US Auto (proposed) bailout.

I drive a Jeep JK 4 dr Wrangler (Diesal). I also own a Nissa Patrol 4x4, a Landrover Discovey Diesal (old 1996), purchased Lise a Mitsubishi Outlander (4x4 pretender) ( I love my car ).

The Landrover is well...my version of a handicapped child. I love it intensely to the point I can't get rid of it. I love its limitations and love more its strengths. Still it is a labour of love. I have spent more on it than I dare to admit but it still brings a smile to my face. I should sell it. The British have no right building cars. I know how much you spent Rob and it still scares me

The Japanese cars in my stable are rocks. Solid. They lack personality to the max but they get the job done in the toughest of environments. Everything works.

My Jeep I love the thing. Yet in the 18 months I have owned it from new I have received more recall notices than phonecalls from my mother. Surely to God you can build a car without the level of hassles I have had. Trips to the dealer with various annoying issues is met with "its a jeep thing". The last time I left the dealership after that comment the Jeep Service consultant had a jeep cap protruding from his mouth.

How did it come to this point? I note the Japanes cars I have are made in Japan, not sure how those manufactured elsewhere stack up.

Just my rant for the day.

I still can't believe you bought the Jeep

[asmith]

I still can't believe you bought the Jeep

Lisa and I laugh every morning as Rob drives in with stereo blaring. As Rob likes to point out, the Jeep has the best standard stereo of any car on the market. The reason is to drown out the wrong noises the motor is making.

All I could think about as Rob went off to buy this Jeep was 'The last temptation of Krusty the Clown' and his endorsment of the Canyonero, and that one line in the theme sone 'Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts.'

Rob is part of a class action against Jeep their first hearing is this Thursday, best of luck mate.

Can you name the truck with four wheel drive,

Smells like a steak, and seats thirty five?

Canyonero! Canyonero!

Well, it goes real slow with the hammer down

It's the country-fried truck endorsed by a clown

Canyonero! Canyonero!

Hey, hey!

Twelve yards long, two lanes wide,

Sixty five tons of American pride!

Canyonero! Canyonero!

Top of the line in utility sports,

Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts!

Canyonero! Canyonero!

She blinds everybody with her super high beams

She's a squirrel-squashin', deer-smackin' drivin' machine

Canyonero! Canyonero! Canyonero!

Whoa, Canyonero! Whoooooaaaa!

[Thomas]

Blame the unions, sure, why the hell should American workers get a decent wage and benifits, its nothing to do with world trade and corporate greed is it, close the rest of our factories and ship all our friggin jobs over sea's

Bah

I drive a 03 Dakota with two hundred thousand on it and it still runs like a champ, like the day I bought it and so does my 42 year old harley

[El Presidente]

Not sure how this became an anti union thread because it isn't. Everyone has the right for a fair days pay for a fair days labour and for such labour to be conducted in a safe environment.

The question here is build quality. Unless it is improved then there will be no job, no benefits, no company.

Here is what Chrylser let out of the factory with the Jeep JK wrangler.

* Small problem with spontaneous combustion.

* Knocking under acceleration. They know its there but they cans find out why.

* Roof leaks

* Door hinges tend to rust.

* Soft plastic interiors. About as hard as butter.

* Electrics shut down engine intermittently. Happened to me at 3500 km. Interesting experience with a car full of kids at 110 on the M1.

* The petrol tank neck is designed for a Petrol Car. They forgot to change it for a diesal. Result: 60% of Diesal pumps in Australia won't fit the car. Still not fixed in new 2008 models.

There are plenty more I won't bother you with. However, roof off and it is a hell of a car to drive around in. The design is great. It is just very bloody poorly built.

[sepp]

...roof off and it is a hell of a car to drive around in. The design is great. It is just very bloody poorly built.

My wife and I tired to buy and support American manufacturing. Bought a brand new Mustang. It also was great car to drive and be seen in. But, Ford spent well more than their profit margin fixing not so trivial things (rear window panels popping out unexpectedly etc).

We bought a Hundai the next time around...

[Shelby07]

I have had my Mustang GT500 for 2 1/2 years. I've driven it coast to coast a couple of times. Not the best gas mileage, but still 20+ on the highway. Then again, I didn't buy it for the mileage.

Not one squeak, not one rattle, not one problem!

[Jimmy2]

Have a jeep Liberty and have had no problems yet for over 3 years knock on wood..

[Wiley]

...

You are right my opinion about quality and value is fifteen years old (at least). The problem is, I believe it is still true.

DC

Man, I have to tell you I was climbing the walls after reading your posts. You're welcome to your opinions, but they sure piss me off.

The current state of American cars, supported by data, is (as has been pointed out) that GM and Ford have made huge strides in quality, and some of their products are in fact superior in quality to what the Japanese sell.

I also hear a lot of people bitching about the product mix the American companies have been making, conveniently forgetting all the full size pickups and SUVs the Japanese have also made to satisfy consumer demands.

I have owned many Ford and GM vehicles and I've never had major or frequent problems with any. The only American car I've ever owned that gave me fits was the one Dodge I made the mistake of buying.

I currently own a 2004 Chevy Tahoe, which I've driven all over the Western US, and a 2008 Cadillac CTS. I looked at the Japanese *cough* competitors for the CTS, and I'm afraid you have to go to Germany for that, and I mean in every way.

[El Presidente]

Wiley I can only give you my experience which is limited to one Chrysler vehicle (although that model has received plenty of press here and abroad for its alarmng deficiencies in terms of quality control). I am thrilled to hear that Ford and GM have made strides in quality control. "Best Practice" is never a static state. Nothing would thrill me more than for the Japanese and Germans to be challenged and surpassed in terms of QC.

There is a reality here however. All three US auto companies are seeking a Bailout. The reasons are numerous and well documented but a lack of planning is certainly amongst the mix.

I think al members would like to see strong, prosperous US auto companies building state of the art vehicles ....in the USA...and doing so in an environment where workers are paid well and are not concerned about closure of plants and loss of benefits.

A bailout needs to have strings attached in a purpose to re position/ re structure the US auto companies so that they can compete effectively into the next 100 years. The restructure needs to take workers into account and not make them a sacrificial lamb. Anything less is a cop out.

[Don Candido]

Hey Wiley,

We are just talking here. There is no need to be pissed. You have your opinion. I have mine. That is part of what makes the world go round.

The current state of American cars is certainly not reflecting your thougths from the business side of this. You can be mad all day long about what you feel, but if they can't make money selling the cars they make, that just about says it all. The heads of the big three were in front of congress asking for us$25Billion just over a week ago. Are you for giving them this money? Why? How will money save them from their own mis-management?

Drive just about any German car for a month and then get back into the American equivalent. It is never a comfortable experience from a handling or an interior perspective. German cars also generally handle much better than Asian cars.

Drive any Japanese car and find it will go much farther with much fewer breakdowns than German or American cars.

The Japanese and other Asian car makers have much better NAV than the Americans (a really important feature to many.)

Cheers,

DC

[Shelby07]

I guess everyone has their stories. A friend of mine bought a Toyota a few years back. At about 3000 miles the engine developed a tick. He brought it back numerous times as it got louder and louder and was told over and over that it was "normal." Right after the warranty went out the engine chunked.

I have driven Fords for many years. I have never had a problem with any of them and most were driven well over 100,000 miles. I have a Volvo S80 T6 that I bought in Sept 2001 and I will say it's probably the best car I've ever owned. I'll drive t until it doesn't go any more.

While the American car companies have had hard times for a long time, no one could have seen the failure of commercial banks and the resulting credit crunch coming. The car companies are asking for the loan (and it is a loan, not a gift) to get them through the next few months until people are able to finance cars again. Will credit loosen up? I don't know, but indications are that it will after the Q1 of next year.

I agree that the product coming out of Detroit are of very high quality. They are fighting a perception. In addition, our government keeps putting more and more demands on them to satisfy the environmental lobbyists and continue to support the unions to gain votes. In essence, if they let the auto manufacturers run their companies and keep their nose out of the way the companies are run, they might have a better chance at doing better.

I watched the congressional hearings a couple of weeks ago. The only thing that seemed to come out of it was that the car guys flew in on their luxury jets. The politicians postured and lectured for days, but never asked what needed to be done to help the car companies. Not once was there a discussion on the part of Congress that was geared toward understanding what needed to be done. They just sat there in their chamber and berated the car companies.

The current financial crunch came about because Congress stuck their noses in the banking industry back in the 90's and required banks to make high risk loans to people who couldn't afford to pay them back. They guaranteed these loans through Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, thus giving the banks a great way to improve their bottom line. Now they are blaming the banks for taking advantage of a system that they created. Our country, and our world economy is run on credit. Congress had an awful lot to do with destroying the value of the dollar and drying up credit. Now they want to sit on their high horses and lecture everyone without taking any responsibility for their part in this mess.

I'm not saying it's all the government's fault. There's plenty of blame to go around. Everyone wants to see the economy get back on track. The best way for the American consumer to help is to at least consider an American car when they are ready to buy, but too many people won't even look. If people started looking they just might find that there are some pretty good products out there, and who knows, they might even start buying them.

Just my opinion...