Moisture content

[El Presidente]

3 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDx4HeO2ens

It looks like Perdomo freezes just before being shipped. 

Correct John. All the manufacturers that I know do. Often in the shipping mastercases. 

[Bagman]

12 hours ago, Faster said:

 I will probably age/store my cigars at around 80F and 63rh, which according to the chart would give a moisture content of 12.5%. I will do this until the cigars go from "unsmokable" to "smokable" or (enjoyable) after which I will gradually lower the temperature to a more normal/accepted setting.

 

I store mine at 63/63.  80/63 is a recipe for disaster.

Why you can easily slow down aging, you really can't speed it up that much.  You can do that while the tobacco is aging, non-cubans do that hence they have historically been more ready to smoke, but once your cigar is rolled,  time is your only option.

[Ford2112]

I believe the Sahakians age boxes in the 50s ,unless my memory of that is off. Personally my cigars are lucky to make it past 3 years.

[Tdm_86]

Also, current production Cuban cigars are far from ‘unsmokable’ young. Rest them from 30 to 90 days and go sample.

[Bagman]

10 hours ago, Ford2112 said:

I believe the Sahakians age boxes in the 50s ,unless my memory of that is off. Personally my cigars are lucky to make it past 3 years.

They do that to slow down the aging process as they age 20+ years

[Ford2112]

3 hours ago, Monterey said:

They do that to slow down the aging process as they age 20+ years

I just pop mine in the microwave for 30 seconds  

[TobaccoRoad]

Interesting topic. I like it when folks don't accept the conventional wisdom and try different things. To be honest, I think that you will change the cigars with your modified storage methods but I am skeptical that you will improve them. That being said taste is very subjective. If you like them better after this process then job well done. This hobby is all about enjoying what you smoke. I know many folks, myself included, that would be ecstatic to have that many 2022 Cohibas and Trinidads to smoke ROTT. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

 

[Dr vonPuffenberg]

I am very concerned about those cigars. If you want to ‘speed up’ aging, I suggest Bond Roberts.

[Fuzz]

On 6/17/2023 at 2:05 AM, Ford2112 said:

I just pop mine in the microwave for 30 seconds  

They age from the inside out.

[ELDonDeTabacco]

I have had beetles come to life. they were in an isolated bag and i wanted to test to see if they would actually hatch. the were cigars brought over from South America. Nothing special done to them just in a sealed zip lock bag with a 65% boveda and room temp in my basement. within two months they had hatched and were alive. scary little bugers. Clearly not Cuban cigars but there's always a chance they will hatch if they are present. I have always froze my Cuban cigars and will continue to do so. Now the question is do I do the same with NC from the Dominican and Nicaragua? yes I do.

on a side note i have been told that freezing cigars dilutes the flavours - Possibly discussed on another thread and if not definitely a topic for another thread

[Faster]

On 6/15/2023 at 11:43 PM, Namisgr11 said:

I would be concerned that high temperatures risk degrading and evaporating aromatics and other volatile organics that contribute to flavor, body, and profile.  It's assumed that this is a primary reason why so many sources recommend long-term storage in temperatures in the 60s degree F or even lower.  

Fermentation is, of course, an entirely different matter, but one that's presumably a focus for the tobacco prior to it being blended and rolled.

 

Yes.  The sum of all fears.

However:

a) I am smoking one a day from the collection so it should be apparent if something is going wrong.

b) At present my collection is at 80F and 65rh; therefore the moisture content percentage is around13%, so the cigars should not dry out.

c) I have done this before (after freezing of course) and it seems that my present experiment is following the same path as the previous one. On the previous occasion nothing seemed to happen for 3 to 4 months then oils started to come out on the wrappers, and then over the next year or two the cigars began to improve/age at a noticeable rate. They got rich oily and delicious. Everything seemed faster than at 70/70.

Present experiment: At present the cigars are in the stage where it seems nothing is happening, except slightly more oil on the wrappers. This 3 to 4 month period of "nothing happening", I think is because the cigars need time to recover from the freezing process, so I am being patient. I should add that in the present experiment; "nothing is happening/there seems to be no improvement" is with the Cohibas in the collection, (those sampled are Siglo II's OEG May 22, that went in 27/02/2023) but the rest of cigars are showing glimmers that they are starting to improve/age.

I am at an altitude of 9000 feet plus, I will try the said Siglo II's at sea level in the next week or so and see if there is a difference in flavour.

Kind regards and thank you for your comment above.

 

On 6/19/2023 at 12:45 AM, TobaccoRoad said:

Interesting topic. I like it when folks don't accept the conventional wisdom and try different things. To be honest, I think that you will change the cigars with your modified storage methods but I am skeptical that you will improve them. That being said taste is very subjective. If you like them better after this process then job well done. This hobby is all about enjoying what you smoke. I know many folks, myself included, that would be ecstatic to have that many 2022 Cohibas and Trinidads to smoke ROTT. Good luck and keep us posted.

Thanks. The Cohibas that I have sampled are mostly Siglo II's, all with 2022 box dates; ROTT they were grassy, dry, unimpressive. 3-4 months at later at 80F and 65rh there has not been any discernible difference, so I guess they need more time, but as I said above I think that cigars need 3-4 months to recover from freezing.

[Namisgr11]

1 hour ago, Faster said:

 

Yes.  The sum of all fears.

However:

b) At present my collection is at 80F and 65rh; therefore the moisture content percentage is around13%, so the cigars should not dry out.

Just a heads up on this.  Volatile organic chemicals (oils, resins, and waxes) will turn to gas when heated to their transition temperature, and humidity doesn't play a role.  They also can undergo temperature-dependent reactions that, too, are largely independent of humidity.

The changes in terpene profiles and contents in medical marijuana as functions of time and temperature have been studied a lot and systematically in these regards.

[Faster]

1 hour ago, Namisgr11 said:

Just a heads up on this.  Volatile organic chemicals (oils, resins, and waxes) will turn to gas when heated to their transition temperature, and humidity doesn't play a role.  They also can undergo temperature-dependent reactions that, too, are largely independent of humidity.

The changes in terpene profiles and contents in medical marijuana as functions of time and temperature have been studied a lot and systematically in these regards.

 

Yes Namis you are correct. Many thanks to everyone for their comments and thoughts.

I have dialed the temperature down to 76F., will see where we go from there..

[Faster]

Good day all and thanks for your views and advice. My experience with new cigars (box dates 22) has been as follows: At around 80F the oils seem to come out instantly and noticeably on the wrapper and the cigars seem to be fermenting. At around 78F the oils go back in, or are reduced, and the cigars still seem to be fermenting. Cohibas starting to change, Montechristos getting very rich and very oily; the cigars are starting to change almost on a daily basis. At 75F the cigars seem to be melding more than fermenting, but the changes/improvements  are still rapid. Based on this experience, I think I will maintain 75F and 66% RH for the next 5 months or so. 

Higher temperatures definitely speed up the aging fermenting process and I am glad that I used higher temperatures, at least for a while. I think that if cigars are being rushed out of Cuba, then a few months at 78F ~ 80F gives the cigars an opportunity that they may have missed, and it does speed up the process. 
 

 

[Reachcast68]

Interesting debate.  I’ve only recently come back to cigars after a long break, but I’ve been taking care of a decent amount of wine for several decades.   While wine and cigars are very different, they’re both natural products that have undergone a fermentation process and continue to age/develop with storage. Most of my bottles are in a walk-in at a professional facility where the temp is maintained at a consistent 55-57 degrees (F) and appropriate humidity. I also have wine at home in a wine fridge (kept around 60 F) and a few cases in a cool part of the house.  When I’ve tasted the same bottles side-by-side, one from my locker and the other from home storage, the locker bottles consistently taste younger and fresher. So, I agree completely that temperature slows the aging process. While the home-stored bottles seem to be more advanced than my locker bottles, I don’t think they are aging as well or as gracefully.  

A good example from last month was a bottle of ‘08 Willi Schaefer Graacher Domprobst Spatlese which I had from my locker. It was gorgeous, and tasted exactly as it should.  A week later, I saw another bottle of the same wine in my cabinet and popped the cork. While it wasn’t damaged, it was considerably more muted and lacked the crystalline intensity that particular bottle can deliver. That’s just one example, but I’ve had many others.  
 

For me, the bottom line is that storing wine at modestly higher temperatures (but not high enough to damage the wine) can accelerate aging, but doesn’t really do it in a positive way over the long haul. In other words, it isn’t a time machine effect. Most other long term wine collectors would likely agree.  
 

How does this translate to cigars? I’m not sure, but my strong suspicion is that accelerating positive aging of a fermented product through the use of elevated temps is risky.   
 

 

[Marco_011t556]

makes me think of this table..

[JohnnyO]

23 hours ago, Faster said:

Good day all and thanks for your views and advice. My experience with new cigars (box dates 22) has been as follows: At around 80F the oils seem to come out instantly and noticeably on the wrapper and the cigars seem to be fermenting. At around 78F the oils go back in, or are reduced, and the cigars still seem to be fermenting. Cohibas starting to change, Montechristos getting very rich and very oily; the cigars are starting to change almost on a daily basis. At 75F the cigars seem to be melding more than fermenting, but the changes/improvements  are still rapid. Based on this experience, I think I will maintain 75F and 66% RH for the next 5 months or so. 

Higher temperatures definitely speed up the aging fermenting process and I am glad that I used higher temperatures, at least for a while. I think that if cigars are being rushed out of Cuba, then a few months at 78F ~ 80F gives the cigars an opportunity that they may have missed, and it does speed up the process. 
 

 

Everything you have said so far is pretty strange. Factory leaf DOES NOT have an additional fermentation process once it leaves the factory. This is documented in many books and confirmed by rollers with decades of experience. At 80F you don't need months or weeks to hatch beetles it can be done in a day. 5ta y 16 and the Comodoro had disasters because of high temps in the past 10-15 years. Even at 78F you are running the risk. If you aren't closer to 70F you are looking for long term troubles down the road. The only process you are speeding up is the birth of your baby beetles. John

[Glass Half Full]

On 6/15/2023 at 1:43 PM, Faster said:

Ok, and thanks for not calling me a madcap.  My collection is very new and having regard to what is coming out of Cuba, I would like to go from "unsmokable" to "smokable" in a shortened period of time. I have read that some speed up the aging process by higher temperatures, and I have, in the past, also successfully used higher temperatures to speed up aging. I acknowledge that most members already have many aged cigars on hand and would not need to speed up aging. (I also acknowledge that it is in the interest of purveyors of cigars to encourage longer aging methods.) 

 

Why not just pick up some cigars that, to your taste, will be wonderful young (perhaps Monte No. 2's?) -- and then age the others in the more conventional way?  

Just a suggestion.  According to many, many FoH members, there are some great young cigars to enjoy.  

[jakebarnes]

12 hours ago, Glass Half Full said:

Why not just pick up some cigars that, to your taste, will be wonderful young (perhaps Monte No. 2's?) -- and then age the others in the more conventional way?  

Just a suggestion.  According to many, many FoH members, there are some great young cigars to enjoy.  

I'd second this point. There are a lot of things smoking well early (Hoyo Epi 2, Hoyo Rio Seco, PSD4, Party Shorts,  Montecristo 4, Montecristo PE, RyJ Petit Royales, Juan Lopez 2 with like 6-12 months on em--heck even VR Famosos are on fire right now). I'd just stick to those for now and maybe try to track down a few aged boxes if you can while letting the other stuff age naturally. 

[Ford2112]

Regular production cigars thr last few years have been outstanding with 1 to 3 years on them. 

[Faster]

On 8/3/2023 at 4:41 AM, JohnnyO said:

Everything you have said so far is pretty strange. Factory leaf DOES NOT have an additional fermentation process once it leaves the factory. This is documented in many books and confirmed by rollers with decades of experience. At 80F you don't need months or weeks to hatch beetles it can be done in a day. 5ta y 16 and the Comodoro had disasters because of high temps in the past 10-15 years. Even at 78F you are running the risk. If you aren't closer to 70F you are looking for long term troubles down the road. The only process you are speeding up is the birth of your baby beetles. John

Thank you for your comment John , I freeze all my cigars, and thanks also to everyone else. I have reduced the temperature to 74F (RH 77%) for now; the intention is to maintain those conditions until the oldest part of my collection has been in the humidor for almost a year, say 9 months or so. Then maybe slow things down by a further reduction in temperature. I firmly believe that using a high temperature initially speeded up the process, and is worth trying on very recent box dates, but in all honesty I cannot say if those higher temps result in sub optimum flavor. 
John I am not sure about cigars not fermenting after rolling, because some also say that aging is a slow fermentation process. What I experienced at 78F - 80F with my very young collection was a rich oily flavor in a short space of time, almost too rich and oily., so I described it as fermentation as opposed to the slowdown at 74F, which I might describe as melding/ aging.

 

On 8/2/2023 at 6:57 PM, 011t556 said:

makes me think of this table..

Thanks for posting this chart. I find it very useful, as I am using higher temperatures than normal and knowing my moisture content is important.

[El Presidente]

14 hours ago, Faster said:

 so I described it as fermentation as opposed to the slowdown at 74F, which I might describe as melding/ aging.

Well fermented tobacco (to my mind) needs to meld as opposed to ferment. 

With our line you are introducing a wrapper, binder, filler combo .....all with 4+ years. There is no further fermentation. However the melding stage can take 18 months + depending on the gauge. We are still working that out. 

[Mr. Japan]

Here there is something for you nerds : https://hulecos.ch 

[Cigar Surgeon]

I've been using the new Cigar Medics HumidiMeter Pro since the PCA tradeshow and capturing the info in the reviews we're doing.

[Fireball]

I've been using the new Cigar Medics HumidiMeter Pro since the PCA tradeshow and capturing the info in the reviews we're doing.

I would really like to hear the results of some of these.