Faster Posted June 13, 2023 Posted June 13, 2023 Good day all. It seems to me we should be focusing on moisture content instead of humidity. That way we will be able to vary temperatures considerably, (after freezing). 1
El Presidente Posted June 13, 2023 Posted June 13, 2023 6 hours ago, Faster said: Good day all. It seems to me we should be focusing on moisture content instead of humidity. That way we will be able to vary temperatures considerably, (after freezing). Search is your friend Senor Piggy is the house master on the subject 1 1
Faster Posted June 14, 2023 Author Posted June 14, 2023 10 hours ago, Faster said: Good day all. It seems to me we should be focusing on moisture content instead of humidity. That way we will be able to vary temperatures considerably, (after freezing). Hello everyone. I am a new member to the site but have been visiting for quite a while, it is an honor to be in your company. I have begun to smoke and collect cigars again after a long hiatus, so my collection is new, all my cigars were purchased this year (2023) and have 22 dates. I therefore have an interest in speeding up the cigar aging process. I read on this site that someone (Sunseeker) used 87F and 66rh and he said that in 2 months the cigars were positively transformed, at a much faster rate than normal. Another post was Optic101 who said he kept some cigars at 80-85 F and 58-60 rh and said that the cigars were positively transformed ("some call it aging") at a faster rate than normal. In my past cigar life I froze and then kept cigars at around 82F and 70rh, and I know that this speeds up the aging process. There have been endless discussions on ideal conditions for aging. But I think that Ray and Pigfish have hit the nail on the head with the July 4th 2017 post and discussion above, they have solved the mystery with the moisture content/temperature/humidity graph. For me I now consider that the faster one wants to age is the higher temperature to be used with a corresponding rh that will provide a 12.5% moisture content . At present I keep my cigars at 77F and 65rh but my collection is very new, I am smoking cigars with a box date of 2022 and the collection has gone into the humidor from March 2023, its difficult for me to evaluate, because my comparisons were from 20 years ago, but I am hoping that in time my cigars will taste like how you guys describe your cigars taste. One of my questions is why do some people think that faster aging means less flavor?
El Presidente Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 I honestly don't believe that you can "age" a cigar faster. You can certainly bring a cigar to a RH level that is more to your personal liking/taste. However "aging" young cigars is to my mind a matter of "time". Wrapper/Binder/Filler need time to "meld" in the opening 18 months or so. In our own line, we know that although the tobacco is 4+ years of age going in, they will smoke remarkably different at 30 days and 18 months. Just my 2 cents. 4
Faster Posted June 14, 2023 Author Posted June 14, 2023 9 hours ago, El Presidente said: I honestly don't believe that you can "age" a cigar faster. You can certainly bring a cigar to a RH level that is more to your personal liking/taste. However "aging" young cigars is to my mind a matter of "time". Wrapper/Binder/Filler need time to "meld" in the opening 18 months or so. In our own line, we know that although the tobacco is 4+ years of age going in, they will smoke remarkably different at 30 days and 18 months. Just my 2 cents. I think that at higher temperatures the melding process will be quicker than at lower temperatures. This means faster aging, (which means I can buy less cigars.)
El Presidente Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 6 hours ago, Faster said: I think that at higher temperatures the melding process will be quicker than at lower temperatures. This means faster aging, (which means I can buy less cigars.) you are not melting chocolate. Kidding! There is zero proof that cigars age quicker in a standard non airconned Asian/Australian humidor than one in a Reykjavik (Iceland) garage.
Faster Posted June 14, 2023 Author Posted June 14, 2023 Thank you for your reply. There may not be "proof" but that does not change the fact that higher temperatures speed up the cigar aging and fermenting process. It seems that everyone accepts that cigars do age at different speeds dependent on conditions. For example cigar gurus talk about slowing down the aging process by lowering the temperature. My original post stated as in italics below: I read on this site that someone (Sunseeker) used 87F and 66rh and he said that in 2 months the cigars were positively transformed, at a much faster rate than normal. Another post was Optic101 who said he kept some cigars at 80-85 F and 58-60 rh and said that the cigars were positively transformed ("some call it aging") at a faster rate than normal. In my past cigar life I froze and then kept cigars at around 82F and 70rh, and I know that this speeds up the aging process. To be clear I am not asking whether higher temperatures will speed up the aging fermenting process. I know that it will. My question was why do some people say that faster aging results in diminished taste. In essence you can speed up the aging process by using a higher temperature, in combination with a rh that results in a moisture content of 12.5%. Higher temperatures were a risk because of mould and drying issues but now that Ray and PigFish have cracked the code with their chart and discourse dated July 2017; there is no longer any risk in speeding up the aging process by storing cigars at 80F and 63rh or slowing it down by using 65F and 60 rh; both these scenarios maintain moisture content at 12.5% which is optimum.
El Presidente Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 8 hours ago, Faster said: To be clear I am not asking whether higher temperatures will speed up the aging fermenting process. I know that it will. My question was why do some people say that faster aging results in diminished taste. Define aging? 1
Popular Post Corylax18 Posted June 14, 2023 Popular Post Posted June 14, 2023 1 hour ago, Faster said: To be clear I am not asking whether higher temperatures will speed up the aging fermenting process. I know that it will. So why one cheek it and only go up to 80F? I would just pop the cigars in the Oven at 250f, you should have perfectly "aged" cigars in couple hours! 3 2 3
ChicagoRob Posted June 15, 2023 Posted June 15, 2023 So why one cheek it and only go up to 80F? I would just pop the cigars in the Oven at 250f, you should have perfectly "aged" cigars in couple hours! If you get your cherry hot enough you can age as you smoke! 2 1
Faster Posted June 15, 2023 Author Posted June 15, 2023 (edited) So why one cheek it and only go up to 80F? I would just pop the cigars in the Oven at 250f, you should have perfectly "aged" cigars in couple hours! Cory, I would advise against popping your cigars into a 250 degree oven, that would be a stupid thing to do. However, I saw a You tube video with Nick Perdomo, where he is in an aging room with rolled cigars (the last stage before sorting and boxing for sale) and he keeps those cigars at a moisture content of 12.5% and he says 68rh, he does not mention temperature; but according to the Ray and Piggy 2017 chart that would mean that he is aging these cigars at around 100F. If I recall he keeps them in those conditions for up to 18 months. Edited June 15, 2023 by Faster correcting a typo about moisture and rh
MossybackR Posted June 15, 2023 Posted June 15, 2023 35 minutes ago, Faster said: those cigars at 12.5% rh and he says 68F, he does not mention temperature; Huh?
Faster Posted June 15, 2023 Author Posted June 15, 2023 Thanks. Correction: 12.5% moisture content and 68 rh, which would mean a temp. close to 100F
BrightonCorgi Posted June 15, 2023 Posted June 15, 2023 On 6/13/2023 at 11:38 PM, El Presidente said: I honestly don't believe that you can "age" a cigar faster. You can certainly bring a cigar to a RH level that is more to your personal liking/taste. However "aging" young cigars is to my mind a matter of "time". Wrapper/Binder/Filler need time to "meld" in the opening 18 months or so. In our own line, we know that although the tobacco is 4+ years of age going in, they will smoke remarkably different at 30 days and 18 months. Just my 2 cents. Age Faster = Deteriorate. 1
Cigar Surgeon Posted June 15, 2023 Posted June 15, 2023 10 hours ago, Faster said: So why one cheek it and only go up to 80F? I would just pop the cigars in the Oven at 250f, you should have perfectly "aged" cigars in couple hours! Cory, I would advise against popping your cigars into a 250 degree oven, that would be a stupid thing to do. However, I saw a You tube video with Nick Perdomo, where he is in an aging room with rolled cigars (the last stage before sorting and boxing for sale) and he keeps those cigars at 12.5% rh and he says 68F, he does not mention temperature; but according to the Ray and Piggy 2017 chart that would mean that he is aging these cigars at around 100F. If I recall he keeps them in those conditions for up to 18 months. I'll ask Nick about it at the tradeshow next month but I'd be very surprised to hear it wasn't air conditioned. Any escaparates I've been in for NC factories are climate controlled because the biggest issue you have to control against is tobacco beetles ruining ready to package product.
Faster Posted June 15, 2023 Author Posted June 15, 2023 Hello Cigar Surgeon, thanks, that would be great. Just to make sure that you have seen the correction to my typo: In the YouTube video he says that prior to boxing he stores at 12.5% moisture content and 68 rh, in the video he did not mention temperature, but according to the graph posted in 2017; 12.5% moisture content combined with 68 rh would imply the temperature is around 100F. He said he stores like that for around 180 days. I would be very interested to learn of the results of your conversation with him.
Namisgr11 Posted June 15, 2023 Posted June 15, 2023 I would be concerned that high temperatures risk degrading and evaporating aromatics and other volatile organics that contribute to flavor, body, and profile. It's assumed that this is a primary reason why so many sources recommend long-term storage in temperatures in the 60s degree F or even lower. Fermentation is, of course, an entirely different matter, but one that's presumably a focus for the tobacco prior to it being blended and rolled.
Hammer Smokin' Posted June 15, 2023 Posted June 15, 2023 very strange. most of the hardest core cigar smokers I know try to slow down the aging process (through various methods). it's incredibly rare to hear how to speak up the aging process. 2
Cigar Surgeon Posted June 15, 2023 Posted June 15, 2023 31 minutes ago, Faster said: Hello Cigar Surgeon, thanks, that would be great. Just to make sure that you have seen the correction to my typo: In the YouTube video he says that prior to boxing he stores at 12.5% moisture content and 68 rh, in the video he did not mention temperature, but according to the graph posted in 2017; 12.5% moisture content combined with 68 rh would imply the temperature is around 100F. He said he stores like that for around 180 days. I would be very interested to learn of the results of your conversation with him. I would assume that he misspoke or the graph calculations are incorrect because if he stored the cigars at 100F for 180 days they'd have a beetle problem before they were packed. 1
Faster Posted June 15, 2023 Author Posted June 15, 2023 I presume the cigars would have been frozen before being stored at these conditions. (In the video he says that the next two steps are colour sorting and packaging, he does not mention freezing, so possibly the cigars were already frozen.)
Cigar Surgeon Posted June 15, 2023 Posted June 15, 2023 58 minutes ago, Faster said: I presume the cigars would have been frozen before being stored at these conditions. (In the video he says that the next two steps are colour sorting and packaging, he does not mention freezing, so possibly the cigars were already frozen.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDx4HeO2ens It looks like Perdomo freezes just before being shipped.
Faster Posted June 15, 2023 Author Posted June 15, 2023 very strange. most of the hardest core cigar smokers I know try to slow down the aging process (through various methods). it's incredibly rare to hear how to speak up the aging process. Ok, and thanks for not calling me a madcap. My collection is very new and having regard to what is coming out of Cuba, I would like to go from "unsmokable" to "smokable" in a shortened period of time. I have read that some speed up the aging process by higher temperatures, and I have, in the past, also successfully used higher temperatures to speed up aging. I acknowledge that most members already have many aged cigars on hand and would not need to speed up aging. (I also acknowledge that it is in the interest of purveyors of cigars to encourage longer aging methods.) I started my present collection this year (2023) and of course the dilemma is; with all my cigars being unaged what should be my purchasing schedule when I smoke one cigar a day and wish to smoke my Cohibas at 2 or 3 plus years old. So I bought 3 years supply of non-cohiba cigars and (so far) 600 cohiba and Trinidad cigars. For the most part they are all ROTT. At this juncture, and after having had the benefit of the opinions expressed on the forum, for which I am grateful, I will probably age/store my cigars at around 80F and 63rh, which according to the chart would give a moisture content of 12.5%. I will do this until the cigars go from "unsmokable" to "smokable" or (enjoyable) after which I will gradually lower the temperature to a more normal/accepted setting. What I will be attempting to achieve is (something like) 3 years of aging at (normal conditions) in hopefully half the time by using an elevated temperature. Because of my previous experience with elevated temperatures, I am confident enough to subject my entire collection to the process.
BrightonCorgi Posted June 15, 2023 Posted June 15, 2023 3 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said: I would assume that he misspoke or the graph calculations are incorrect because if he stored the cigars at 100F for 180 days they'd have a beetle problem before they were packed. Within a month there would be beetles. 1
Cigar Surgeon Posted June 15, 2023 Posted June 15, 2023 44 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said: Within a month there would be beetles. Possibly within a week. I mean I'm assuming Nick does like most manufacturers in Esteli where periodically the stored tobacco and finished cigars get fumigated. When there's tobacco everywhere there are bugs everywhere it's unavoidable. 1
Faster Posted June 15, 2023 Author Posted June 15, 2023 (edited) Is it possible that even with a high temperature, beetles cannot hatch at a moisture content percentage of 12.5% or less? Edited June 15, 2023 by Faster typographical error
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