Interior Fans

[ChicagoRob]

Hey everyone.

 

I have a Newair 840. It operates pretty well honestly.

 

My issue is that there tends to be around a 2.5% difference in RH between the top and bottom of the cabinet.

 

So I’m essentially looking for a small fan to place on a try that will send air upwards.

 

What have you used on your builds that have worked well? (Preferably batter operated and small)

 

Thanks

[PrairieSmoke]

Back when I had a Newair I used the AC Infinity MULTIFAN S3, Quiet 120mm USB Fan. Ran the cable out of the drain hole in the Newair. Pretty sure I had to cut and re-splice the power cord, but it was a piece of cake. I wasn't interested in replacing batteries, so this is the route I went.

[ChicagoRob]

Back when I had a Newair I used the AC Infinity MULTIFAN S3, Quiet 120mm USB Fan. Ran the cable out of the drain hole in the Newair. Pretty sure I had to cut and re-splice the power cord, but it was a piece of cake. I wasn't interested in replacing batteries, so this is the route I went.

Thanks for the recommendation. That fan is a little larger than what I’m looking for.. I think.

[BTWheezy]

Hey @ChicagoRob - Amazon, search for “Noctua fans”.  I’ve built a couple freestanding humidors, and researched the heck out of fans for just this situation.  Noctua fans are little tiny monster air-movers.  Been rock-solid for me.  Apparently the brand is a favorite of the PC gaming crowd.  Quiet as a church mouse, and just little work horses. 
 

Pay attention to the wiring options, as there are a few to choose from.  I’ve used both the 40mm and 60mm fans. They’re solid.  Good luck!

Wheezy

[MattxG]

@ChicagoRobI have the same humidor and have been looking into the same thing for a while.  I've tried small PC fans wired up to a small power supply but have never been truly satisfied with the result.  I end up loosing shelf space to set the fan on and end up with a wire coming out of my door.  I'm interested to see what you end up coming up with.  My ultimate solution woud be something like @PigFish's ducts he's done on his youtube channel.  Maybe if we got him dimension he could make us up something for our humidors?

@BTWheezy - can confirm, noctua fans are little beasts.  Super quiet and powerful air movers.

[Under Pressure]

Hi, Newair 840 owner here, thanks to this place.  🙂  Long time lurker but first post besides my intro. 

I also was not happy with the temp and humidity variance of this unit, nor the accuracy of the readout.  And actually I sent my first one back - the replacement is a bit better but not perfect, is a bit louder, but has the new drawers without the dividers.  I think one of the main issues is that the main fan really does not run long enough to circulate the air properly and it probably should run continuously.  I have been experimenting with adding fans and placement of them in this unit for over a year now and I will say that it has been incredibly frustrating experience!  You would think that adding fans would even things out, but most times it seems it makes them worse and can actually increase temp/humidity differences and their swings as well.  Truly bizarre.  I think I have tried nearly every fan placement and air direction possible given the limited mounting space for them.

With that said I think I have come up with a configuration that has me around 1.5% temp and humidity variance top to bottom and front to back with individual reading swings ~1F/~1%RH +/- the average reading across all hygrometers (so max 2F/2rH swing). I have 6 Govee and 1 SensorPush HD - one at the front/back of each tray and 1 in the lower drawer.  Not sure I will be able to do much better, and just as a side note the SensorPush HD does not seem to be all that more accurate than the Govee for what I am doing with them...

First, there is a video on YouTube of a partial disassembly of the 840 - you should watch that if you have not already as it will give you insight into the main airflow of this unit.  When the fan runs it appears to pull air in from just under the front lip of the humidifier unit, into the humidifier and then up through the back cooling coils and then out from the fan at the top back of the unit.  There is a lot of space behind that back panel where perhaps some custom fans/ducting could be fabricated but that is beyond my capabilities for now.

I have three 5V Noctua fans arranged inside the cabinet using velcro to hold them in place and these are run using the splitter cables to a single 5V wall wart with the thin power cable exiting the cabinet near the lower right door hinge.  There is a small air leak in the door seal there as a result of the cable but I don't think it has that much of an impact.

The first fan is a 40mm version at the back top left corner blowing towards the front and across the top of the top tray.  It is velcro'd to the left side and top of the cabinet just above the top of the top tray and the front of the fan is about even with the back edge of the tray.

The second fan is also a 40mm version and it is located on the right side of the cabinet under the middle tray blowing towards the front and down the right side.  It is velcro'd to the side and partially on the top as I positioned it just under the plastic molding for the middle tray slider.  It is also located so that the front of the fan is about even with the back of the trays and does not cause any interference with the trays.

The third fan is a 60mm version and is centered directly under the humidifier unit at the back rear.  It is at a 45 degree angle or so blowing up and towards the front.  I clipped the lower rear mounting tabs of the fan to get it to sit evenly between the molded ribs in the floor of the unit.  The fan leans on the back of the cabinet with a piece of velcro to prevent rattles.  The thought here was to help push some air up and off the back of the rear drawer and into the main air return at the front of the humidifier unit and also to move the air around the lower drawer a bit.

It is also interesting to note that these small fans seem to direct air out of one/two corners of the fan more than the others, and so that placement can also have a measurable impact on the result you may get.  I have the top fan positioned so that most air comes from the top of the fan, the middle fan most air comes from the right side of the fan, and the bottom fan it is either coming from the top or bottom of the fan - think it may be the bottom.

Anyways, long post but hopes this helps a bit.  I figured with the velcro there is no harm and can be easily un-done or re-arranged.  Hopefully a few of us can put our brains together and share our experiences to come up with a better and more foolproof solution.  Any questions just ask!

 

[MattxG]

On 5/10/2022 at 8:09 PM, Under Pressure said:

First, there is a video on YouTube of a partial disassembly of the 840 - you should watch that if you have not already as it will give you insight into the main airflow of this unit.  When the fan runs it appears to pull air in from just under the front lip of the humidifier unit, into the humidifier and then up through the back cooling coils and then out from the fan at the top back of the unit.  There is a lot of space behind that back panel where perhaps some custom fans/ducting could be fabricated but that is beyond my capabilities for now.

Nice! I wonder if it was my little 2 minute youtube video I made when I switched out the temp/rh sensor?  I also found myself unhappy with the accuracy of the sensor so I called NewAir and ordered a new one, cost like $20 or something like that, and replaced it.  New sensor was marginally more accurate, not accurate enough to truly solve the problem, but enough of an improvement that I decided to leave it in there.  While I was in there I shot that little video just to get that information out on the internet for others who might wanna do the same.

[Under Pressure]

@MattxG  Yes, that was the video!  Thanks for that.  There was a review on the Newair site for the new 1500 count humidor (I think) and the person states that they fabricated some custom ducting and fans that helped a lot - hopefully that person will find their way over here so we can get the details on what they did.

Some more details on the fans I used - the 40mm were 20mm deep and the 60mm was 25mm deep.  I wanted as thin a fan as I could get to allow airflow from behind the fan since I was mounting them so close to the rear panel.

I did try arranging the fans to blow the air up and/or down along the back wall and that really provided interesting results.  The temp was evened out just about everywhere but then humidity readings were all over the place and the swings got extremely large.  I am convinced this unit does not have any sort of fuzzy logic to intelligently adapt to conditions, or if it does it is very sensitive to the location of that one sensor.

[ChicagoRob]

Nice! I wonder if it was my little 2 minute youtube video I made when I switched out the temp/rh sensor?  I also found myself unhappy with the accuracy of the sensor so I called NewAir and ordered a new one, cost like $20 or something like that, and replaced it.  New sensor was marginally more accurate, not accurate enough to truly solve the problem, but enough of an improvement that I decided to leave it in there.  While I was in there I shot that little video just to get that information out on the internet for others who might wanna do the same.

I actually watched this video before I purchased the 840!

The conclusion I came to after reading some other peoples experiences was to use my govees to essentially set the unit to what I wanted regardless of what the unit was reading.

Meaning if I want (roughly) 62° then adjust the humidity controls until I reach 62°.

The temperature controls I’ve found to be pretty spot on while humidity runs roughly 6% underneath what the unit control reads.

It was trial and error but nothing too difficult (as long as you’re confident in your hygrometers you use to set the unit).

I guess after reading Under Pressures experiences it seems like the work and space taken up by fans isn’t worth it considering this thing holds nothing close to 840 sticks

Looking at numbers I see roughly a 1.5% humidity and temperature difference from top to bottom which I don’t think is anything I’ll need to worry about.

[Under Pressure]

Sounds like maybe you got a better unit than I did, or perhaps have a more updated controller.  My initial temp variance was 2 degrees which is not too bad but the humidity variance was around 4% which with the temp variance was resulting in drastically different %EMC values for each of the trays - some seemed on the dry side and others a bit to wet.  Yes, I probably obsess over it a bit too much but with my fan additions it seems that I am now close to what you are seeing without them.  😞  My 840 is packed to the gills though so that could be a difference.  I have a mix of boxes and cedar trays stacked 3 high to hold singles.  The fans really take up no space and the only work was frustratingly moving them around to find out how to place them such that it did not make things worse!  🙂  I have almost 700 in mine, so ya, no way 840 are fitting in it.

[ChicagoRob]

Sounds like maybe you got a better unit than I did, or perhaps have a more updated controller.  My initial temp variance was 2 degrees which is not too bad but the humidity variance was around 4% which with the temp variance was resulting in drastically different %EMC values for each of the trays - some seemed on the dry side and others a bit to wet.  Yes, I probably obsess over it a bit too much but with my fan additions it seems that I am now close to what you are seeing without them.    My 840 is packed to the gills though so that could be a difference.  I have a mix of boxes and cedar trays stacked 3 high to hold singles.  The fans really take up no space and the only work was frustratingly moving them around to find out how to place them such that it did not make things worse!    I have almost 700 in mine, so ya, no way 840 are fitting in it.

I did get the refresh (no dividers in the trays) so I wonder what (if any) changes they made that could have impacted this.

How in the world do you have 700 in there? I did a rough count today and I think I’m near 400. That being said - I have 125 incoming and don’t think I’ll be able to fit anything after that.

Post a pic or quick vid to show off how yours are stored? Maybe I’ll get inspiration on how to retetris mine.

[Under Pressure]

I have a lot of singles and any boxes are mainly robustos or minutos.  It's really going to depend on that and the size of the cigars you have.  Top tray is all singles.  Middle tray I have 6 cedar trays from Amazon - two side by side against the back of the tray stacked 3 high.  I can get 32 robusto size in each one of those, or less with churchills or pyramids, more with minutos.  To the right of that there was room for a minutos box vertically.  In front of the trays there was room for a 3 count petaca and a box of half coronas vertically and resting somewhat perilously on the front top of the tray.  The lower tray has another 3 stacked cedar trays along the back with another minutos box vertically to the right.  In front of that there was room for a vertical half corona box and two SLB of robustos.  To the right of the SLB there was room for two minutos 12 count boxes.  On top of the SLB there was room for a box of churchills.   In the bottom drawer there are 4 10 count robustos boxes topped with another minutos box that comes up level with the top of the drawer.  In front of those I had room to slide in a robustos box vertically.  To the left of those are five 3 count petacas.  On top of all that there was room for a 10 count pyramids box and another 3 count petaca.  So quite over packed and kind of makes the additional fans necessary to get some air movement in there, but it seems to be working.

Oh, and I have added some of those foam cabinet door pads on the bottom corners of the cedar trays so that some air can get in between them and also to keep them from sliding around when the drawers are opened/closed.

[Under Pressure]

OK, this is truly bizarre.  I was mostly happy with how the fans had evened things out, but I had one more 40mm fan on hand and had never tried 4 fans, so more is better, right?  I got another splitter and put the 4th fan under the second tray in the back right blowing forward similar to the fan under the third tray.  That really screwed things up and readings went haywire!  So for grins I tried turning that fan around so it blows towards the rear wall and that actually worked and tightened up the readings a bit more.  But that third tray always seems to be a percent or two above the other trays/drawer for some reason and that just bugs me!  So I decided to try turning around the lower fan behind the drawer/under the humidity unit so that it blows into the back wall/floor at 45 degree angle, even though that does not seem to make much sense.  And BAM!  All the per-device readings almost flat lined!  I really cannot understand it.  I still have an overall one degree variance top to bottom and 3% rH, but I now have a max .2F temp variance and max .3% rH variance on all devices!  Several are 0F and .1% rH.  LOL.  Really does not make any sense.  I am wondering if the higher reading tray 3 might gradually come down a bit over time now.  Also noticed that the incessant clicking of the electronic expansion valve has almost gone away - just a few random light clicks now and again.  Maybe that will reduce water usage and I'll only have to fill it up once every two weeks instead of once a week.  Time will tell...

[Under Pressure]

Here are some pics to better illustrate what has happened.  This is one of my sensors on Saturday:

Notice the big 2.5% RH swing/variance.  Here is a picture of that same sensor from today:

Notice that I now have a .2% RH swing!  Here is a weekly view of this same sensor:

A lot of the big up/down swings were me playing with the fans/positions until Tuesday evening when the impossible seems to have happened.  All 5 of the sensors have the exact same results although all read slightly different overall temp/RH values and due to sensor to sensor variance/calibration and I am OK with that.  I did calibrate all the sensors together at one time but still don't expect them all to read/react the same.

[Lunettesman]

Probably not helping you much. But what about just moving your boxes every 3 months? 

[ChicagoRob]

Here are some pics to better illustrate what has happened.  This is one of my sensors on Saturday:

Notice the big 2.5% RH swing/variance.  Here is a picture of that same sensor from today:

Notice that I now have a .2% RH swing!  Here is a weekly view of this same sensor:

A lot of the big up/down swings were me playing with the fans/positions until Tuesday evening when the impossible seems to have happened.  All 5 of the sensors have the exact same results although all read slightly different overall temp/RH values and due to sensor to sensor variance/calibration and I am OK with that.  I did calibrate all the sensors together at one time but still don't expect them all to read/react the same.

This is great. Will you please post a pic of the fan setup? I tried following based on the details you gave but found it difficult.

I may be down to follow in your footsteps for such stability.

^Edit^ attached an example of my fluctuations. Honestly I’m not concerned with the up and down but I’d be 1000% ok without them!

[ChicagoRob]

Probably not helping you much. But what about just moving your boxes every 3 months? 

Not a bad idea honestly. The difficulty comes with organizing so many boxes. 2 of the shelves are identical. One is long and not high and the last is deep and narrow.

It’s probably possible but too much work to retetris this thing 4 times a year.

[Under Pressure]

Yes, I have thought about moving boxes around, but the way I have things packed in there and the combination of mostly singles vs. boxes makes it really difficult to do.  That and the fact that I really never know what I want and/or when, so I prefer to have all sticks all ready to go on a whim.  To me it seems that the 3-4% humidity swings have made it difficult to determine if they are really being stored properly (versus a Boveda in a coolerdoor/Sistema, which is where I started...) and just does not seem acceptable for such an expensive unit, IMO.  Some sticks seem like they are too wet, others seem to be too dry.  It's just been a challenge for me.

It would be interesting to see if this could be replicated, so here are some pictures of how I have the fans placed.  In all, I have like $60 in the fans plus an old 12V power supply from a home phone or something.   I hope this makes more sense than my attempt at explaining it!

40mm x 20mm Noctua fan above the top tray, back left, front of fan even with rear of tray when slid all the way in, fan blowing frontwards (hard to see, but there is an inch or two behind the fan and the rear wall - same for all the top fans):

Noctua 40mm x 20mm fan under top tray, back right, fan even with back edge of the rear of the tray so no interference, fan blowing rearward:

Noctua 40mm x 20mm fan under middle tray, back right, fan even with back edge of the rear of the tray so no interference, fan blowing frontward:

Note that there is no room to put a fan under the third tray due to the humidification unit.  This is the 60mm x 25mm Noctua fan at the bottom under the humidification unit and behind the bottom drawer, centered and positioned at a 45 degree angle blowing rearward:

I had to clip the rear-most mounting holes/tabs to get the fan to sit down in the molding of the floor bottom.

Also may not be obvious, I used 3 of the Noctua fan splitters and extension cables as needed.  Some of the fans come with the splitters, some don't (can't remember if it was the 4-pin PWM fans or not) so be aware what types of fans you order 3/4 pin and if they come with the splitters or not.  4 pin PWM not needed, but think I ordered a couple because they had the splitter and work with the 3-pin.  Also used one or two of the extension cables.  I have an electronics past, so I cut/spliced/soldered/shrink wrapped a male fan connector to the power supply cable to mate with the first fan splitter.

Everything held in place with hook/loop tape.  The power cord exits at the front right in front of the door hinge.  Really seems to have been a Skinwalker Ranch type of result, but hopefully others can replicate!  Any further clarification please ask.  And also note that sometimes even the way the fan is positioned (relative to where the wires enter the fan - can be 4 different positions/rotations) I have seen result in drastically different outcomes!

I'd be curious if it was the 60mm fan at the bottom alone that worked, but I am afraid to mess with anything at this point!  I thought I tried that particular fan position at some point but cannot recall - I have been messing with these fans/positions for almost a year now.  But if trying to follow along on this journey that is what I would try first as that change is what triggered all sensors (one front/back each tray, and one in the drawer bottom) to all simultaneously go to .1-.3% RH readings.

[Under Pressure]

Well, that was great while it lasted.  After I took those pictures all the readings went back to the large swings!  I literally just opened the door, pulled out each tray and took a picture.  I guess it was not the bottom fan after all, but some correlated event.  I swear these units are possessed!!!  🤬  The only thing that could have changed would be the position of the two slim boxes I have at the top of the drawer, and I don't see how that would trigger this but I am playing with their placement to see...

[ChicagoRob]

Well, that was great while it lasted.  After I took those pictures all the readings went back to the large swings!  I literally just opened the door, pulled out each tray and took a picture.  I guess it was not the bottom fan after all, but some correlated event.  I swear these units are possessed!!!    The only thing that could have changed would be the position of the two slim boxes I have at the top of the drawer, and I don't see how that would trigger this but I am playing with their placement to see...

GD it! I was just about to start looking into power for these fans too. I can’t imagine your frustration as you’ve been experimenting on this for so long.

I’m just gonna let it ride honestly. I don’t think the small up and downs are negatively impacting my smokes. I have my desired temp and humidity range mostly nailed although I’d prefer my top drawer a little higher. Maybe I’ll throw a couple boveda up there but I doubt it’ll do anything.

Really appreciate all the time and effort you put into sharing your process with me(us). If this was Reddit I would give you gold for it.

Keep us updated if anything changes? I’ve noticed it takes around 24 hours until the unit settles back into where you want it after the door opens.

[joeypots]

I use heartfelt beads in mesh bags. They keep my Aristocrat Plus evenly humidified and I can dry the beads out in summer when the temp rises and add water  when humidity is needed during the drier winter months. Everything is consistent enough for me with this system. 

[Under Pressure]

OK, I think I have it back...  Mostly.  I went on the theory that the bottom fan was not what triggered it, at least not totally, and that something with moving those boxes on top of the bottom drawer played a major role with the airflow since that was the only thing that changed.  So I decided to block off the air flow behind the top of the rear drawer to keep it from going directly into the humidification unit (where the air is pulled in right under the front lip and right near the top of the rear drawer) by laying a strip of 1.25" square window insulation foam along the top back of the drawer and against the humidification unit.  My thought was that it would force the air to be pulled up from the bottom of the unit rather than from the tray directly above it.  That changed things up but at least not like I had seen before.  So I then cut the strip in half and only covered the right side, and that seems to be working better but still I’m playing with exact placement.  Not sure if this will work for anyone else or if it is specific to my setup due to the fans I have added, where they are located and the direction they are blowing, etc.  But it would be easy for anyone to try this.  If I get brave I will try unplugging my fans and see what happens, but I won't attempt that until I find what seems to be the best location.  It might take arranging multiple smaller pieces of foam with gaps across there to divert/allow airflow appropriately.

[MattxG]

FWIW, here's what my temp/rh swings are looking like.  I have 4x of the big 320g Bovedas in the unit (one on each shelf), along with the little 8g bovedas in every box, and have the unit stuff fulled.  I think i got things to a level where the fluctuations are tolerable.