Beautiful old box & calling Colombo: HDM Favoritos De Espana

[El Presidente]

 

 

 

 

 

 

So to our FOH COlombo Sleuths

 

Tell us about the Favoritos Line ? 

 

 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

Several examples of these have surfaced over the years and they don't appear to have been particularly rare. It appears these were made pre-Rev so unlikely to have been carried over past 1962. 

A box sold in 2017 for £820:

https://www.onlinecigarauctions.com/sold_lot_info.php?products_id=3445

And it appears there's one for sale currently at the European LCDHs, although I think they're asking a bit much.

https://www.lacasadeltabaco.com/en/product/hoyo-de-monterrey-favoritas-de-espana-32/

[Jack]

In my experience “Hecho en Cuba” indicates post-revolution.  That and the lack of embellishment would lead me to guess late 1960’s or even early 1970’s.

Possibly a varieties box commissioned for sale in Spain.

[NSXCIGAR]

5 hours ago, Jack said:

In my experience “Hecho en Cuba” indicates post-revolution.  

It is an unusual manufacturer stamp for pre-Rev but it isn't consistent with the post-Rev stamp either. I don't think the stamp can be used to determine date in this case, although I would certainly put it closer to the 60s than the 30s. 

In 2003 Habanos auctioned several items including one of these. I'm assuming it became this one eventually sold in the UK auction signed by Fidel.

https://www.cgarsltd.co.uk/product_info_previous.php?products_id=5839

The description on the HSA website states it was made in the 50s so clearly these existed pre-Rev:

Old case, Hoyo de Monterrey brand, “Favoritos de España” produced in the decade of the 50’s

https://www.habanos.com/en/news/subasta-de-humidores-2003-2-en/

There's no record of these existing post-Rev and we know items like this often didn't carry over post-Rev. 

Interestingly, the box for sale at the LCDH above appears to have a post-Rev warranty seal. However, this is the only box out of at least 6 I have found images of that even has a seal, the most notable being the confirmed authentic HSA-auctioned box. No seal. In addition the wood on the LCDH box is much darker than all the other boxes I can find. Coupled with the unusual presence of the warranty seal I would very much question that box.

@El Presidente, looks like you already stumbled on to one of these in June:

https://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/topic/149747-hoyo-de-monterrey-favoritos-de-espana/

[El Presidente]

so do we concur that they are the traditional 1-5 fomat?  Lonsdale, Piramide, Corona, PC, Half Corona?

[99call]

3 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

so do we concur that they are the traditional 1-5 fomat?  Lonsdale, Piramide, Corona, PC, Half Corona?

I have owned a partial box of these in the past, and from memory defo no Piramide.    I don't recall them being repeated sizes in the hoyo line.  i.e. the skinnies would be either slightly longer of shorter than a Du Gourmet etc. 

If someone was trying to get a full box on BR,  a good sign would be the presence of slightly scruffy drop heads.  Thats what my box looked like and also the links NSX put up

 

[Jack]

15 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

It is an unusual manufacturer stamp for pre-Rev but it isn't consistent with the post-Rev stamp either. I don't think the stamp can be used to determine date in this case, although I would certainly put it closer to the 60s than the 30s. 

I'm not convinced that Habanos SA is able to accurately date a box they did not produce and "1957" is a great year to choose if you want to sell a box and have it legal in all countries.  Sure maybe they got the date from the person they received it from and just repeated it and then M. Orchant just repeated it and if you say something three times is becomes true.😉

The only evidence we have is "Hecho en Cuba" and your mention of a post-revolution warranty stamp on another box. That would point me towards post-revolution, but the age of some of the examples you show doesn't necessarily fit in that era. I'm not a collector of cigar bands, but there may be something there that could help. 

All of this conjecture goes out the window if the packaging was produced in another country - for sale in that country.  (The Partagas and Ramon Allones jars come to mind as examples of foreign-made packaging.  There are many more modern examples, of course.)

I've yet to see a box of pre-revolution cigars out of Cuba that said "Hecho en Cuba".  Not that it couldn't exist - maybe for the Spanish market?

That's not to say it couldn't have been produced both before and after, but as you mentioned - that is rare.

There are a few things here that are odd though.  That single clasp is abnormal for a box of this size.  They either use a different (slide) clasp or two of the ones shown.  The general shape and quality (of the box and the printing) doesn't seem like something that they spent a lot of time on.  The strong bevel on the lid is another thing that stood out to me.

Possibly only for the Spanish market, or duty-free in Spanish-friendly countries.  Maybe the box was made in Spain and packaged there?

Even the similar Humidor No.1 looks better finished and has the latch I would expect on this.

Fun to examine the possibilities.

 

[NSXCIGAR]

29 minutes ago, Jack said:

I'm not convinced that Habanos SA is able to accurately date a box they did not produce and "1957" is a great year to choose if you want to sell a box and have it legal in all countries.  Sure maybe they got the date from the person they received it from and just repeated it and then M. Orchant just repeated it and if you say something three times is becomes true.

I don't put any stock in MO's assessment. I only linked it because it looks like the same box. I have no idea how he got 1957 from "1950s" that HSA stated.

As far as HSA dating it, obviously they didn't make it but there were plenty of people around in 2003 that were around in the 1950s that could date that box. In fact it may have been one owner. I would actually put some stock in Habanos' estimate. Where MO got 1957 from I have no idea nor do I care. 

33 minutes ago, Jack said:

The only evidence we have is "Hecho en Cuba" and your mention of a post-revolution warranty stamp on another box. That would point me towards post-revolution, but the age of some of the examples you show doesn't necessarily fit in that era. I'm not a collector of cigar bands, but there may be something there that could help. 

I'll give you that but I've also never seen that style "HECHO EN CUBA" on any other post-Rev box. Boxes may be made elsewhere buy typically they are stamped in Cuba or stamped uniformly. Box stamping from the 1930s onward is very standardized. The jars were well known for being made in Spain by Sevilla and were marked as such. I am not aware of any stamping irregularities post-Rev. 99% of the time, irregularities indicate pre-Rev or at least pre-nationalization in Jan 62. 

As far as it being an exclusively Spanish market box, the 2003 box was in Cuba and was given directly to and authenticated by HSA, so I doubt it was an export-only item to Spain. "de Espana" was a very common name for cigar models for most of the 20th century. 

I do see that CCW lists the standard band B introduction as the "1960s" which is interesting. Where does this date come from @ATGroom? Are there no examples of this band beyond 1960? I'm quite sure I've seen these bands pre-Rev and I doubt it would have been only in 1960 and 1961. 

45 minutes ago, Jack said:

That's not to say it couldn't have been produced both before and after, but as you mentioned - that is rare.

I wouldn't say it's rare--many cigars were carried over. But many were not. If there's no clear evidence of existence post-Rev and it's not in MRN then it's almost certain it didn't make the cut in 1962. Now, that also doesn't mean it wasn't still carried over in catalogs. I'm talking actual production. Hundreds of pre-Rev cigars can be found in post-Rev catalogs and lists well into the 1970s that no one can confirm were ever produced post-Rev. In fact, I've only been able to confirm about 10 cigars that are not in MRN that there is actual evidence of having been produced post-Rev despite there being many hundreds of others in catalogs and retailer lists well into the 1970s. I've come to believe that if it's not in MRN it's very, very unlikely that the cigar was ever actually produced even if it appears in catalogs or retailer lists many years after the Rev. 

1 hour ago, Jack said:

Even the similar Humidor No.1 looks better finished and has the latch I would expect on this.

I believe the Humidor No. 1 was a higher-end product. The Hoyo FdE looks more like something like the Los Tres Romeos which was like a gift box or variety box. The Hoyo Humidor No. 1 was a high-end serious smoker's cigar like the Sir Winston and consequently the quality of the box itself and the adornments would be of higher quality. 

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

so do we concur that they are the traditional 1-5 fomat?  Lonsdale, Piramide, Corona, PC, Half Corona?

Hard to tell but it definitely doesn't look like the No. 2 is a Piramides. In fact, it's hard to tell what's going on in that box.

The No. 1 could be a long panetelas like a Deliciados, the No. 2 could be a Coronas Gordas, No. 3 could be a Lonsdale, No. 4 could be a Coronas and No. 5 could be a Marevas. 

Certainly, No. 1 could be a Cervantes, No. 3 a Coronas, No. 4 a Marevas and No. 5 a Minutos. 

 

[ATGroom]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Where does this date come from @ATGroom? Are there no examples of this band beyond 1960? I'm quite sure I've seen these bands pre-Rev and I doubt it would have been only in 1960 and 1961. 

Is incorrect. That caption is unchanged since Trevor's days, but I'm going to guess he meant "pre-1960s". Band has definitely been around since the 50s, likely significantly earlier.

 

As far as I know, these were available until 1980. I'm only aware of them ever having been sold in Spain. 

As always, my view is based on catalogues, factory and store records, full and empty boxes listed in auctions etc - certainly it is not to a standard that will satisfy NSX.

[NSXCIGAR]

18 minutes ago, ATGroom said:

As far as I know, these were available until 1980. I'm only aware of them ever having been sold in Spain. 

Very well may be, and we do have the one box in the LCDH listing showing the 62-99 warranty seal. I'll also concede if it is a Spanish-exclusive that is certainly a market that received oddball and unique products. Are the Favoritos de Espana listed anywhere as individual models or have you only seen them as part of this combo box?

And yes, I have to ask--is your 1980 date based on actual images of post-Rev boxes or just catalogs/lists? Yes, my standards come into play once again...

25 minutes ago, ATGroom said:

Is incorrect. That caption is unchanged since Trevor's days, but I'm going to guess he meant "pre-1960s". Band has definitely been around since the 50s, likely significantly earlier.

Thanks--that's what I thought. "1960s" definitely struck me as odd. Looking at the 1920s Hoyo catalogue on CCW it looks like it's there (certainly the basic design but hard to tell with black & white images) but it definitely looks like band B in the 1950s Dealers Catalogue.

[ATGroom]

46 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

is your 1980 date based on actual images of post-Rev boxes or just catalogs/lists? Yes, my standards come into play once again...

1980 is based on catalogues. Actually they appear in a 1981 catalogue, but given the production issues in 1980 and then the industry restructure that followed, it seems unlikely any were produced later than 1980.

There are plenty of post-Revolution boxes around, based on the bottom stamp. The seals on these would have been on the outer wooden box they came in. The one mentioned earlier in this thread with the seal is "Cuba being Cuba," but normally they wouldn't be expected to have the seal.

Never seen any indication of the sizes or any of the cigars sold outside the seleccion box.

[NSXCIGAR]

44 minutes ago, ATGroom said:

There are plenty of post-Revolution boxes around, based on the bottom stamp.

If you've seen an image of a box with the official post-Rev stamp that would satisfy my standards. Looks like we have another cigar not in MRN. Understable in this case as it likely was a Spanish exclusive and the HSA-auctioned box didn't appear until 2003 which may have been too late to catch MRN's attention.

Have you seen that style stamp on the OP box anywhere else? I've never seen it before. What's your take on that? Pre-Rev or no?

[99call]

4 hours ago, ATGroom said:

The seals on these would have been on the outer wooden box they came in

I would also suggest these were highly likely to come in an end opening slide lid box (similar to the Humidor 1 & 2).   We know they were still doing this for certain releases up to 1997, and the Partagas humi commemorating the UK handing over Hong Kong to China. 

Something about their heavily pigmented brown varnish reminds be of the dull black on the Monte A box and dull green on the Upmann Winnies of the late 70s 80s.