Something you don't see everyday: Hoyo de Monterrey Conquistadores

[El Presidente]

Pre embargo (1961) and I haven't seen a box (50 cigars) of them before. 

I know Andy Ryan is doing a little bit of backgroud research on this cigar. I will post it up later in the week. 

Great to see boxes like this and of couse Nino's "Sol" box on BR. 

 

https://www.bondroberts.com/product/view/5458/Hoyo_de_Monterrey_Conquistadores_1961_Dress_Box_of_50_cigars

[Hammer Smokin']

whoa. 

look at the quality of those sticks! wrappers are fantastic for their vintage. 

[MrBirdman]

Astonishing condition for cigars at 60 years. 

[El Presidente]

2 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Astonishing condition for cigars at 60 years. 

One day you need to arrange a look at the JJfox keep in Dublin. 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

1962-1963. Beautiful cigars. 

Looks like a rare post-Rev cigar that is not accounted for by MRN. In fact, only the second post-Rev cigar I've ever seen an image of not accounted for by MRN. 

[Ryan]

On 6/30/2021 at 10:07 PM, El Presidente said:

Pre embargo (1961) and I haven't seen a box (50 cigars) of them before. 

I know Andy Ryan is doing a little bit of backgroud research on this cigar. I will post it up later in the week. 

Great to see boxes like this and of couse Nino's "Sol" box on BR. 

 

https://www.bondroberts.com/product/view/5458/Hoyo_de_Monterrey_Conquistadores_1961_Dress_Box_of_50_cigars

 

It is a beautiful looking box and looks like it has been stored very well. I'll putting some bits together on these and Nino's Sol Grandezas. Look out for an update in the Bond Roberts email on Sunday evening/Monday morning

On 6/30/2021 at 10:21 PM, El Presidente said:

One day you need to arrange a look at the JJfox keep in Dublin. 

 

I just got home from my Friday lunchtime kebab with Yiorgos there and we went through some nice boxes!

11 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

1962-1963. Beautiful cigars. 

Looks like a rare post-Rev cigar that is not accounted for by MRN. In fact, only the second post-Rev cigar I've ever seen an image of not accounted for by MRN. 

The MRN book is an extraordinary piece of work, I have the pages nearly worn clear on my research copy (I have another copy still in the shrink wrap put away). Nothing close to it had been done before it or since and I'm still shocked that somebody could have put it together. For the last 20 years it has been easy enough to research new releases as every new release is stored digitally all over the world. From 1959 - 2001 though, there was so much lost. Until the Encyclopaedia, much information that was left was stored only in the heads of some people, or in forgotten drawers, all over the world. There were some cigars missed. Some were retailer only releases, so that's very understanadable and others might have had a limited release. There were a few though. And I'm nearly sure that in the last 20 years, MRN has become aware of many if not all of these ones missed in the original book. Pre-Revolution, with over 4,000 brands, (and counting in my database), is a different kettle of fish entirely.

I'll add a post or two with some boxes I saw just this afternoon. All post-Revolution.

[Ryan]

Romeo y Julieta Giraldas No.4 . Dress box of 25 robustos. late 60s/early 70s, still investigating.

 

Punch Nectares No. 6. This one is very very rare. MRN mentions the Punch Nectares No. 2, No. 4 and No. 5 in the book. These were originally a J.J. Fox exclusive release but I have seen Nectares on the pricing lists of UK distributors for other retailers.

Punch Nectares No.1 and No. 3

Ramon Allones Allones Grandes

 

One of my favourite pictures I took today! Two boxes of Allones Grandes.

 

[NSXCIGAR]

12 hours ago, Ryan said:

I'll add a post or two with some boxes I saw just this afternoon. All post-Revolution.

This is great stuff! I am still amazed at how few MRN did miss. There really aren't that many. As I said, I had only seen actual images of one (RyJ Condes) until these OP Hoyos. 

The most surprising here is the RA Allones Grandes. I never realized this wasn't in MRN. I've seen it at auction and even in promotional materials. This must have been a simple oversight on MRN's part as I can't believe this cigar wasn't known.

The Punch Nectares, also a little strange. One would think if he was aware of a 2, 4 and 5 that were known UK releases he would have checked with JJ Fox or Dunhill about a 1, 3 and 6. 

And I'm wondering if the RyJ Giraldas No.4 might be a UK early version of the Exhibicion No. 4. The Ex 4 didn't arrive until the mid-1980s and these Giraldes appear to be very late 1970s based on the box stamp and the "A" in CUBA" being entirely closed. The vitola certainly looks like it could be a Hermosos No. 4. 

[Ryan]

That's the thing about the MRN book. When it was compiled, there were almost no online materials. He did an extraordinary job with it.

The Nectares, were a very popular cigar until the late 80s. Then people literally forgot about them when they were discontinued. They had mostly only sold in the UK and Ireland. The 2, 4 and 5 are mentioned in the Encyclopaedia but no images were available at the time.

In about 2010 some boxes were sold into North America and a handful of guys on forums then knew about the 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. The No. 6 was still "legendary" until about 2012 when some boxes were discovered in a collection in JJ Fox Dublin. The No. 6 is a robusto in 5 layers of 5 cigars separated by cedar sheet format.

The Giraldas No. 4. The rg is all over the place as can be even seen in the image, but the length is within 1mm of a robusto.

The "Giraldilla" is a statue and Havana folk tale, but the "Giralda" is a tower in Seville, Spain. Now the bell tower of the cathedral where Christopher Columbus's mausoleum is, it was originally built as the minaret of the mosque, changing use in 1492 I suppose.

How it came to be the name of a Romeo y Julieta cigar, I don't know. Possibly the Christopher Columbus connection, I don't know.

The Allones Grandes, how they didn't make the book, I don't know. But I know very, very few people knew of them in 2000. I would be surprised even if any of the staff members in any of the Fox shops knew there were still some in the keeps, without blowing the dust off an old ledger.

 

 

 

[El Presidente]

Brilliant stuff Andy 

[NSXCIGAR]

6 hours ago, Ryan said:

The Nectares, were a very popular cigar until the late 80s. Then people literally forgot about them when they were discontinued. They had mostly only sold in the UK and Ireland. The 2, 4 and 5 are mentioned in the Encyclopaedia but no images were available at the time.

That's what is odd. I don't know how he could know about the 2,4 & 5 and not know about or at least attempt to get info and make a notation about the missing models in the book. All it would have taken is a call or email to Fox and I'm sure they could have told him they had at least seen or sold the 1, 3 and 6. After all, they're all listed in the 1965 JJ Fox price list. Seems like some pretty basic detective work even for 2001.

The RyJ Giraldas: While I was checking the 65 Fox price list above I found this listed as "Geraldos No. 4". Interesting...

So it seems this box also may have been a UK/Ireland special or a Fox special but has been around for quite some time. Very interesting.

[Ryan]

5 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

That's what is odd. I don't know how he could know about the 2,4 & 5 and not know about or at least attempt to get info and make a notation about the missing models in the book. All it would have taken is a call or email to Fox and I'm sure they could have told him they had at least seen or sold the 1, 3 and 6. After all, they're all listed in the 1965 JJ Fox price list. Seems like some pretty basic detective work even for 2001.

The RyJ Giraldas: While I was checking the 65 Fox price list above I found this listed as "Geraldos No. 4". Interesting...

So it seems this box also may have been a UK/Ireland special or a Fox special but has been around for quite some time. Very interesting.

CCW is a great site. However, it did not exist in 2001 when the Encyclopaedia was being created. I’m not sure how easy or difficult it would have been to have made that site as complete as it is without access to the information in the Min Ron Nee Encyclopaedia.

That 1965 Fox catalogue is great reading, but that catalogue is only up on the site for about 2 years. I know, I was the one who got it scanned and sent to CCW.

Otherwise, that list might have been thrown out. It was stuck in the back of a cabinet for 50 years until a clear out about 5 years ago. Many of the cigars on that list were forgotten about completely, including by J.J. Fox staff. Maybe 5 people had seen that list, or knew about its existence, between 1965 and 2019. So, a call to JJ Fox Dublin or London in or about the year 2000 would have proved fruitless, as they didn’t know they had it, and were simply not aware of many of the cigars on the list.

The vast majority of staff in cigar shops are interested in one thing, especially traditionally, this has changed a little in the last 20 years. But it was getting stock in and moving stock out, with working capital held in stock for the shortest period possible. There were exceptions in some cigar shops, Fox included. But very few people were interested in aging cigars until about 20 years ago. Zino Davidoff talked about it before then, in his books, but not 10, 20 years aging or in other terms of “decades” as discussed extensively in the Min Ron Nee book.

Funnily enough, it has turned around the other way, it was Min Ron Nee’s book that really started the global wide-spread interest in long term (decades) aging of cigars. Having read (or become aware of) the book, customers started looking for long term aged cigars and retailers started noticing.

Fox has quite a bit of aged and vintage stock, as do many other retailers now, but very very few retailers were doing it in 2000. Much of that aged stock was accidental. Customers bought cigars from the 1920s on, left them in their keeps in the shop and forgot about them. Then years later they wanted to sell them back to the shop. This is how many, if not most, cigar shops get their very aged stock, I’m not talking about the 3 – 5 years aged stuff, I mean a decade old and more. There were exceptions of course, Dunhill, Davidoff, Gerard etc.

As for the Giraldas No.4 described as “Giraldos No.4” on the list. While of course nobody remembers, that list was typed up by someone out of secretarial school in 1965 and sent off to the printers. When staff got the pricelist back, they either didn’t care or didn’t notice. Printing was not a negligible cost back then as it often is now.

In fact, there is every possibility that you are the very first person to ever notice that typo!

Regarding Min Ron Nee knowing about the Nectares No.2, 4 and 5 and not the 1, 3, and 6. It is extraordinary that he even got access to information about the 2, 4 and 5. Almost certainly the first time they ever got a mention in any third party publication. In 2000, there was maybe one person in the world, working in the cigar industry, who remembered that a 1, 3 and 6 were also made. And he would certainly not have remembered much about them, their sizes etc. and would not easily have been able to find the boxes in the recesses of the keeps.

It is entirely understandable that one might have understood that while a 2, 4 and 5 were made, that there was never a 1, 3 or 6. Numbers were not always incremental like that.

There were JJ Fox El Rey del Mundo Nos. 21, 47 and 54. There was never a 1 – 20, at least as far as anybody knows.

 

[CaptainQuintero]

13 hours ago, Ryan said:

 The No. 6 was still "legendary" until about 2012 when some boxes were discovered in a collection in JJ Fox Dublin. The No. 6 is a robusto in 5 layers of 5 cigars separated by ceda

  Just how big is the Fox storage Andy? I'd assumed it was simply 'downstairs' but it sounds more and more that it's a pretty substantial thing? I'm guessing the London storage is significantly smaller?

[Ryan]

6 minutes ago, CaptainQuintero said:

  Just how big is the Fox storage Andy? I'd assumed it was simply 'downstairs' but it sounds more and more that it's a pretty substantial thing? I'm guessing the London storage is significantly smaller?

Trade secrets! I'm sorry. London is actually quite a bit bigger though. Dublin, between all the areas, a room of maybe 10' X 20'. London, 3 or 4 times that.

[CaptainQuintero]

10 hours ago, Ryan said:

Trade secrets! I'm sorry. London is actually quite a bit bigger though. Dublin, between all the areas, a room of maybe 10' X 20'. London, 3 or 4 times that.

Treasure trove! 

[NSXCIGAR]

19 hours ago, Ryan said:

CCW is a great site. However, it did not exist in 2001 when the Encyclopaedia was being created. I’m not sure how easy or difficult it would have been to have made that site as complete as it is without access to the information in the Min Ron Nee Encyclopaedia.

That 1965 Fox catalogue is great reading, but that catalogue is only up on the site for about 2 years. I know, I was the one who got it scanned and sent to CCW.

Otherwise, that list might have been thrown out. It was stuck in the back of a cabinet for 50 years until a clear out about 5 years ago. Many of the cigars on that list were forgotten about completely, including by J.J. Fox staff. Maybe 5 people had seen that list, or knew about its existence, between 1965 and 2019. So, a call to JJ Fox Dublin or London in or about the year 2000 would have proved fruitless, as they didn’t know they had it, and were simply not aware of many of the cigars on the list.

I'm aware that MRN predated and was an impetus for most of the references available today including CCW. My point in regards to the Nectares is how odd it is that he could get information on three but not all six. I agree--it seems unlikely he would have known about any of the Nectares. All or none seems like the only possibility. And as far as the model names (numbers) I think there's a big difference between something like 1-6 and 21, 47 and 54. He had the 4 and 5 which are connected. And there's a 2 but not a 1? The low numbers and the connectivity strongly implies a full line, at least 1-5. The 6 (or higher) would be the one that may be missed if any. And indeed, the 6 seems to be the most unknown based on your reporting.

I will say that in MRN the details about the 2, 4 & 5 are very skeletal. He also notes, intriguingly, that "no pictures can be found in any catalog." This may suggest that MRN did get the information from some kind of list or catalog that only contained the 2, 4 & 5. Without images he wouldn't have seen that these were JJ Fox releases or UK exclusive, and therefore wouldn't have known to check with Fox or Dunhill. This also precludes him from having seen a box in person. But somehow he knows the cigars were discontinued in the 1980s--not sure how he could know that or even if they were ever made or only existed on paper. Several times he's notated the possibility of cigars only having existed on paper in other cases where he has never seen a cigar outside of a catalog. Anyone who could confirm the 2, 4 & 5 would certainly have been able to confirm the 1, 3 and possibly 6. 

It seems contradictory. If he had never seen the cigars, he couldn't know anything about them but somehow he knows they were gone in the 1980s. How could he get that information? If it was Rius, how could he recall and have specific vitola details for only half the models?

Perhaps he was comparing catalog listings and saw them vanish in the 80s. But that is an awfully uncharacteristically haphazard way for MRN to go about listing a cigar that he has never seen in person or an image of. And no comments or apparent investigation about what very much appears to be missing numbers or gaps in the models. I just don't see the basis for MRN even including these or at least notating that they may have only existed on paper. How could he confirm three but not six? 

Something's just not adding up. If he had notated they may have only existed on paper or gone into more detail about what he knows about them but he did neither.

19 hours ago, Ryan said:

As for the Giraldas No.4 described as “Giraldos No.4” on the list. While of course nobody remembers, that list was typed up by someone out of secretarial school in 1965 and sent off to the printers. When staff got the pricelist back, they either didn’t care or didn’t notice. Printing was not a negligible cost back then as it often is now.

In fact, there is every possibility that you are the very first person to ever notice that typo!

I was fairly certain is was likely a typo but my point is that these were listed in a catalog as far back as 1965 and clearly produced through the late 70s. Quite surprising that MRN missed these. 

I also see the Giraldas listed as 4 3/4" in length. This would actually be consistent with two vitolas--Paraisos (50 RG) and Hermoso Especial (48 RG) or essentially Short Robusto. It clearly isn't a Hermosos No. 4. Unless it survived up until the introduction of the Ex 4, it appears this cigar was similar in vitola but no relation to the Ex 4.