Por Larranaga Petit Corona - LGR Nov 18 (VVRW#2)


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It depends on the reaction... I mean we now know that molds and bacteria are universally present on cigars (and giving birth to the infamous plume) so I wouldn't be surprised if they had something to do with the ammonia breakdown, and they might be anaerobic so in that case they wouldn't need oxygen. I mean we humans produce ammonia in our bodies and we can break it down, I believe it's not uncommon for other organisms to be able to do that... 

It would be interesting to run a test: take two cigars that smell of ammonia from the same box. Put one in a sealed ziplock bag, glass jar or other airtight vessel. Put the other in a Tupperware and open it to vent potential ammonia say once two weeks/month. Leave the airtight one sealed. Wait one year then compare. See if the one sealed lost less ammonia than the other. If they both still smell of ammonia, extend to another year. 

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On 4/14/2021 at 8:38 PM, RichG-LI-NY said:

Is oxygen required to progress the chemical reactions in decomposition? Sealed cooler would lack the oxygen content of a less sealed system. I ask this knowing nothing about chemistry.

Depends on what reactions... as far as I remember ammonia is made by bacteria that live in the absence of oxygen. I think this is your primary source of ammonia in cigars. So vacuum-sealed containers would be more likely to have high ammonia. But I think the amount of air exchange in a cooler, the air surrounding the cigars, and certainly in a humidor is way too high for anaerobic bacteria to thrive. I had a box of HdM petit robustos that had a faint ammonia smell pre-light, so I left them in my humidor instead of cooler for a few months to dissipate. It helped. They smoke perfectly fine now. 

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32 minutes ago, CaptainQuintero said:

  It's going a while back in the old meat archive since it's been so long since it's been an issue, but I think ammonia  reacts with oxygen to produce nitrogen?

  Sealed up, eg in a tubos or a tight box like a SLB, the reaction would be slow compared to loose in a desktop

I think that's valid but I think ammonia in cigars combines to form other byproducts. Not sure that storage temperature is high enough to break it down in the way you suggest.

I'm seeing 400C as a temperature for decomposition online.

Edit: As to what compounds it forms Wikipedia says:

"Formation of other compounds Edit

In organic chemistry, ammonia can act as a nucleophile in substitution reactions. Amines can be formed by the reaction of ammonia with alkyl halides, although the resulting -NH2 group is also nucleophilic and secondary and tertiary amines are often formed as byproducts. An excess of ammonia helps minimise multiple substitution and neutralises the hydrogen halide formed. Methylamine is prepared commercially by the reaction of ammonia with chloromethane, and the reaction of ammonia with 2-bromopropanoic acid has been used to prepare racemic alanine in 70% yield. Ethanolamine is prepared by a ring-opening reaction with ethylene oxide: the reaction is sometimes allowed to go further to produce diethanolamine and triethanolamine.

 

Amides can be prepared by the reaction of ammonia with carboxylic acid derivatives. Acyl chlorides are the most reactive, but the ammonia must be present in at least a twofold excess to neutralise the hydrogen chloride formed. Esters and anhydrides also react with ammonia to form amides. Ammonium salts of carboxylic acids can be dehydrated to amides so long as there are no thermally sensitive groups present: temperatures of 150 – 200 °C are required.

 

The hydrogen in ammonia is susceptible to replacement by a myriad of substituents. When dry ammonia gas is heated with metallic sodium it converts to sodamide, NaNH2.[26] With chlorine, monochloramine is formed.

 

Pentavalent ammonia is known as λ5-amine or, more commonly, ammonium hydride. This crystalline solid is only stable under high pressure and decomposes back into trivalent ammonia and hydrogen gas at normal conditions. This substance was once investigated as a possible solid rocket fuel in 1966.[31]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia#Formation_of_other_compounds

I never ended up taking organic chemistry so I can't tell you what any of that means.

Edit 2: more likely just evaporation... I'd have to dig up posts pre 2006 to see if problems were worse on tubos.

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11 hours ago, Bijan said:

I think that's valid but I think ammonia in cigars combines to form other byproducts. Not sure that storage temperature is high enough to break it down in the way you suggest.

I'm seeing 400C as a temperature for decomposition online.

 

 

    Back when Cubans used to arrive in the UK fresh the ammonia was so strong that tobacconists wouldn't sell them initially but used to store them for a couple of years to allow the ammonia to dissipate naturally. This was eye watering levels of the stuff. So I'm guessing whatever reaction was taking place didn't need to be forced. They were simple storage rooms, no heating or anything special beyond rh control. I think two years was about the time period they stood. 

  Different to the fermentation>heat-ammonia that goes on in the curing piles in Cuba. With rolled cigars the fermentation process was finished, the anomia left over was just that, a left over.

  With poorly fermented finest used in cigars, you can see where there will be issues as the process wasn't done correctly. Storage can remove the left over ammonia but can't change/redo/finish the fermentation process

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