Cigar Band Discoloration

[Wookie]

What causes this? I see it all over aged boxes, but not on all of them. Any insights? I did a half-assed search and didn’t find anything.  These are both 2015 samples. 

Here is the back side of the JL2 band...maybe it has to do with oiliness of wrapper?

[TheGipper]

I get the green oxidized copper like your RA all the time.  Especially on Por Larranaga and Ramon Allones bands.

The JL in your second one, I have never had anything like that.

[CaptainQuintero]

  I've seen oil from wrappers discolour some bands, the gold rubs off some like the PLPC very easily. The newer glossy style like Cohiba seem to stay clean 

  I think keeping cigars in a humid environment probably doesn't help paper based designs

[Wookie]

The JL2 with the dark wrapper and discolored band is magnificent. They have all been resplendent. The other box I have from same year with light wrappers (with no discoloration) suck in comparison. 

[jvd1291]

Given that cubas pretty "Oldschool" It wouldnt surprise me if the paper they were using was pretty acidic as well, which could help speed up the oxidation of the metal pigments in the bands.

[THEMISCHMAN]

I was thinking about this same thing today as I was smoking one of my MdO2. The bands all have a weird patina on them. I’ve see it on other bands too. Sounds like a case for FOHrensics...?

[Kongelunden]

Hm, I haven't actually been noticing this but haven't been looking for it either - but will certainly start doing so. 

[LLC]

This EML FEB 14 Punch Punch from a tube (but hasn’t been in the tube for years) that I had recently has a band that looks 80 years old. Not sure why as I have lots of older cigars with normal bands. The cigar was excellent.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wookie]

19 hours ago, jvd1291 said:

Given that cubas pretty "Oldschool" It wouldnt surprise me if the paper they were using was pretty acidic as well, which could help speed up the oxidation of the metal pigments in the bands.

Maybe a combination of oily wrapper, humidity and paper? But LLC's Punch Punch don't usually have oily wrappers, do They? (See pic above)

[LLC]

Maybe a combination of oily wrapper, humidity and paper? But LLC's Punch Punch don't usually have oily wrappers, do They? (See pic above)

My storage has been the same for many,many years and that type of discoloration is rare for me to see. That 2014 Punch Punch from a tube was more pale and not oily but still delicious. I just went and looked at the remaining 2014 PP from that same box code and the labels are perfect with no discoloration. Did that label at some point get wet? I don’t think that’s likely but how else can it be explained. Strange.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wookie]

44 minutes ago, LLC said:

My storage has been the same for many,many years and that type of discoloration is rare for me to see. That 2014 Punch Punch from a tube was more pale and not oily but still delicious. I just went and looked at the remaining 2014 PP from that same box code and the labels are perfect with no discoloration. Did that label at some point get wet? I don’t think that’s likely but how else can it be explained. Strange.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My box of December 2015 JL2 have dark wrappers. The bands are mostly stained. The November JL2 with light wrappers from same year have no stains on bands. Both boxes have sat next to each other in the same coolidors for 4-5 years. The dark wrappers with stained bands are delicious. The other box with perfect bands and lighter wrappers are not good. It doesn't seem ther is any consistent science to the stained bands??

[MC4]

The last picture, the back of the band looks like mold to me.

[cigcars]

      *Looks like over-humidification to me

[Wookie]

10 hours ago, MC4 said:

The last picture, the back of the band looks like mold to me.

Could be..maybe I'll move the box to a different location.  That humidor tends to run a bit higher humidity than others. 

[Fugu]

It’s a moisture issue. The gold bronze dye on the bands oxidises under (even short-term) condensing conditions.

Mostly where the band touches other surfaces (where traces of water will be trapped a little longer in the contact zone). Why the pattern often appears blotchy.

[Wookie]

47 minutes ago, Fugu said:

It’s a moisture issue. The gold bronze dye on the bands oxidises under (even short-term) condensing conditions.

Mostly where the band touches other surfaces (where traces of water will be trapped a little longer in the contact zone). Why the pattern often appears blotchy.

So are you saying that some event occurred that caused condensation in the box and thus the oxidation process began? Could have happened at factory, during shipping, etc? I don't think it's from the humidor because I have 25+ other boxes in the same unit with no similar issues. And they've all been in there for at least 3-4 years. 

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, Wookie said:

So are you saying that some event occurred that caused condensation in the box and thus the oxidation process began? Could have happened at factory, during shipping, etc? I don't think it's from the humidor because I have 25+ other boxes in the same unit with no similar issues. And they've all been in there for at least 3-4 years. 

It actually is a micro-effect, and often a result more due to temperature (fluctuation) than anythings else. Note that the painted bands do behave quite different to tobacco when it comes to surface effects. At spots where two non-absorbent, almost sealed surfaces touch, like two bands in a box/cabinet touching each other, the contact zones form sort of an "infinite capillary". In a capillary, there are different (complex) physical effects coming into play. Simply put, the surface effect of a capillary, plus physisorption can cause water to 'condense' well above its dew point already (capillary condensation), as compared to an open, freely exposed surface.

So, while the tobacco leaf - being highly porous and absorbent, acting balancing on any excess surface moisture - doesn't show such an effect under normal storage humidity conditions, these sealed surfaces may do. Often, you will find this effect to appear most prominent at contact zones of band/band or band with glassine paper.

Add to that the different materials, batches of dies, surface properties, material isotherms, band-sizes, aging effects, the given storage temperature etc., and you'll end at different results (e.g. the old LGC-bands are quite notorious for it, while I think I have rarely, if ever, seen it in Bolívar). And while it is mostly not an issue of concern to the actual cigar, it neither seems a sign of utmost storage stability. I usually try to avoid it appearing. But small blotches are a non-issue.

[Wookie]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

It actually is a micro-effect, and often a result more due to temperature (fluctuation) than anythings else. Note that the painted bands do behave quite different to tobacco when it comes to surface effects. At spots where two non-absorbent, almost sealed surfaces touch, like two bands in a box/cabinet touching each other, the contact zones form sort of an "infinite capillary". In a capillary, there are different (complex) physical effects coming into play. Simply put, the surface effect of a capillary, plus physisorption can cause water to 'condense' well above its dew point already (capillary condensation), as compared to an open, freely exposed surface.

So, while the tobacco leaf - being highly porous and absorbent, acting balancing on any excess surface moisture - doesn't show such an effect under normal storage humidity conditions, these sealed surfaces may do. Often, you will find this effect to appear most prominent at contact zones of band/band or band with glassine paper.

Add to that the different materials, batches of dies, surface properties, material isotherms, band-sizes, aging effects, the given storage temperature etc., and you'll end at different results (e.g. the old LGC-bands are quite notorious for it, while I think I have rarely, if ever, seen it in Bolívar). And while it is mostly not an issue of concern to the actual cigar, it neither seems a sign of utmost storage stability. I usually try to avoid it appearing. But small blotches are a non-issue.

Thank you. best thing about what you said is that the tobacco is not harmed. Viva la discoloration! Topic closed!