Do blenders in Cuba ever get to retrospectively sample vintage cigars?

[99call]

As I think Nino has said on the forum before "you wont find vintage cigars in Cuba". 

With that in mind, if a blender is putting a cigar together like an old school RA 898, how do they truly get to know whats that cigar intended to be, if it flies out the door the second it's rolled?

Do they hold a certain number of cigars back as a sort of 'databank' to train blenders?. or is this just too sensible to be true? 

 

[Ethernut]

2 minutes ago, SenorPerfecto said:

Has anyone ever met a Habanos blender?

 

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, 99call said:

As I think Nino has said on the forum before "you wont find vintage cigars in Cuba". 

With that in mind, if a blender is putting a cigar together like an old school RA 898, how do they truly get to know whats that cigar intended to be, if it flies out the door the second it's rolled?

Do they hold a certain number of cigars back as a sort of 'databank' to train blenders?. or is this just too sensible to be true? 

 

A vintage cigar in Cuba is 3 years old.  the whole concept is foreign to them.  

[LGC]

Not to worry... the ratios of coffee, grass, vanilla, honey, cardamom, stone fruit, fruit cake, pepper, cedar, and burnt toast extracts are all written down and protected.

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

Not to worry... the ratios of coffee, grass, vanilla, honey, cardamom, stone fruit, fruit cake, pepper, cedar, and burnt toast extracts are all written down and protected.

Haven't you heard? Rollers go up to a leaf smorgasboard and grab handfuls of what they need. 

[Zedman05]

I brought Alex one of his Dalias from 2014 when I was there in June. He smoked it later and was impressed how much flavor and strength it still had. He said it wasn't as sharp, and was very good.
He too had no concept of aging cigars for any period of time. He kind of looked at me puzzled for a second.

[99call]

7 hours ago, El Presidente said:

A vintage cigar in Cuba is 3 years old.  the whole concept is foreign to them.  

With that established, Would the degree of strength of cigars of the past be a genuine flavour/body preference of tastes in Cuba (i.e the blender) or are they creating "blind" for a customer.  With some cigars of the 60s still able make smokers green behind the gills today, surely there couldn't of been genuine desire for smokers in Cuba to have cigars that 'full on'?

I like strong cigars, and I don't see anything in the modern day catalogue to be too strong, But if the answer "yes! the general desire of Cuban's was for their cigars to be that strong" then why have their tastes changed in the modern day? 

[99call]

1 hour ago, Zedman05 said:

I brought Alex one of his Dalias from 2014 when I was there in June. He smoked it later and was impressed how much flavor and strength it still had. He said it wasn't as sharp, and was very good.
He too had no concept of aging cigars for any period of time. He kind of looked at me puzzled for a second.

This is brilliant, I cant help but think those experiences, may inform (even in a slight way) how he approaches his blends in the future.

[JoeyGunz]

Surely they could have shared out some of the Anejados line to let the blenders know how things look with some age...

[99call]

36 minutes ago, JoeyGunz said:

Surely they could have shared out some of the Anejados line to let the blenders know how things look with some age...

- "Hey Ernesto! do you want to try some of these Anejados"

- "EERrrrr!. No?"

- "ERNESTO!!!!..............smoke the Anejados!"

 

[torsion]

Senor Carlos-master blender at El Laguito with Jemma Freeman.

This topic is very interesting especially the comment about Alex, you would of thought the blenders would get to try aged cigars but it's Cuba after all!

[99call]

2 minutes ago, torsion said:

Senor Carlos-master blender at El Laguito with Jemma Freeman.

This topic is very interesting especially the comment about Alex, you would of thought the blenders would get to try aged cigars but it's Cuba after all!

Thanks for posting this. 

I realised in starting the thread, there would be a host of people coming back with "yeah? No chance"  Which is how I imagine it to be. The real question to me is. How do blenders go about making very very strong 15yr lay down cigars (that aren't really made anymore), that are unpleasantly brutal ROTT, if they have little to no idea what the end game is

 

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, 99call said:

Thanks for posting this. 

I realised in starting the thread, there would be a host of people coming back with "yeah? No chance"  Which is how I imagine it to be. The real question to me is. How do blenders go about making very very strong 15yr lay down cigars (that aren't really made anymore), that are unpleasantly brutal ROTT, if they have little to no idea what the end game is

 

There are recipes that followed to make one cigar or another.  Rollers are provided that material pre-allocated to what the blender & recipe intends to make.

Habanos should promote more of the recipe on what makes Montecristo a Montecristo vs. Partagas, etc...  It would build even bigger brand loyalty & add value to their base line pricing.

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, 99call said:

How do blenders go about making very very strong 15yr lay down cigars (that aren't really made anymore), that are unpleasantly brutal ROTT, if they have little to no idea what the end game is

This is neither their intention (and frankly I think it never has been) nor are such cigars much in demand by today's smokers. As Rob already said - they don't care about how they might smoke after a 15yr laydown period. This simply isn't their qualifier. Ligadores blend and catadores try and taste completely in the here and now. They have a concept about how they should taste fresh. That's it.

Also, it is nearly impossible anyway to deduct from an decades-aged cigar on today's blend to then achieve the same in another decade from now. It's not rocket science, it's nature for the most part. Nature and the human factor..... That's what actually makes things so fascinating (for me), finding the hits and avoiding the misses.

[99call]

Just now, BrightonCorgi said:

There are recipes that followed to make one cigar or another.  Rollers are provided that material pre-allocated to what the blender & recipe intends to make.

Habanos should promote more of the recipe on what makes Montecristo a Montecristo vs. Partagas, etc...  It would build even bigger brand loyalty or add value to their base line pricing.

Hmmm Yep, it just puts them under pressure though, which is why a guess they don't do it. 

Like many of us have said before, there is nothing more uninteresting than reading some Habanos schpiel on the inserts. i.e "this release, is a special release, on the date we have chosen to release, these 10 special cigars blah blah blah Yawn!. it doesn't really communicate anything

I see it akin to the write up on back of wine labels that restrict themselves to "this is a red wine, that will pair well with red meats" ?? no! you don't say! I would rather they wrote nothing, 

As long as they don't commit to saying a certain cigar 'should' present certain charcteristics, the insinuation can always be with the failing of dealer/personal storage or consumer palette. 

[99call]

5 minutes ago, Fugu said:

This is neither their intention (and frankly I think it never has been) nor are such cigars much in demand by today's smokers.

But thats exactly what i'm saying.  Some of the cigars of yesterday were so brutal, that,  who did! want those cigars fresh?

To me (and I like strong cigars) they would of been completely inapproachable young. I guess what I'm getting to is,  Were clients outside of Cuba, suggesting blends and body that was over and above what was already a natural disposition for fresh strong cigars in Cuba .........i.e. was this strength creator driven, or audience driven?

 

[Fugu]

Oh, yes, got you. Now, there's two aspects to it. The Cubans and also "old school" Spain is or has been known to have a preference for such 'punchy' cigars. But there may also be a slight misconception here: A cigar that appears brutally strong in its age, must not necessarily have been so when younger or freshly rolled. This is a matter of balance. Sometimes, in poor tobacco quality cigars (Cuba itself even classifies tobacco for longer or shorter shelf-life - for them actually not necessarily a matter of quality, just of time frame of consumption), some of the younger flavours (primary notes) may fade and go away with age. And a certain strength - I'd rather put it as body - originally perceived as pleasant when it initially kept everythig nicely in balance, will leave you with nothing more than that, quite as you put it, a brutal - boldness. Lacking in flavour, complexity and finesse. Side note: This is also the reason for why the pervieced "strength" of a young cigar alone is not telling anything about its potential for aging.

It can perhaps be compared to a good Amarone, where you don't taste it's 16% alc., or a Riesling where you don't notice its comparatively high acidity gradation. Because a richness in flavours and extract keeps everything nicely in check. Once that's been lost, you are left with a coarse, naked frame.

[Ethernut]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

Also, it is nearly impossible anyway to deduct from an decades-aged cigar on today's blend to then achieve the same in another decade from now. It's not rocket science, it's nature for the most part. Nature and the human factor..... That's what actually makes things so fascinating (for me), finding the hits and avoiding the misses.

Very well said! No intention of grandstanding but the very same concept is shared in the Noob Thread. They get a stacks of leaf, then they break it up and move it around in the factory, then move it around again then put wrappers on them then sort them according to wrapper color.

SO. MUCH. Variation can occur just inside one shipment of leaf at one factory in one day. It's a freaking MIRACLE of nature that CC's even have a distinguishable profile, nay, profiles!, that are different from any other cigar. It's that miracle that we all appreciate (when it's _on_).   

[Colt45]

Blend recipes aside, I'd guess that along with changes to tobacco strains, changes in the processing of the tobacco has impacted approachability.

[Philc2001]

From what I have experienced, the blends most certainly change over time, but they are relatively consistent for short periods. By that I mean, the blend from year 1 to year 2 from a specific factory seems relatively similar, and year 2 to year 3, and so on. But if you try to compare year 1 to year 4, 5, etc. it will definitely be off.

To me it seems the blenders do little more than ratio blending by leaf category, meaning the recipe calls for  n amount of seco (call it "a"),  n amount of ligero (call it "b"), n amount of volado (call it "c"), d-binder leaf, e-wrapper leaf. Each may be from a certain tobacco strain, though I doubt there is much variety there. Thus in my mind the recipe is a+b+c+d all wrapped in e. It may not even be this involved.

If I'm right about that, then you can see why the flavors would change from harvest to harvest, year to year. Hence, when I find a box code that I really like I try to load up with the same date and box code. But maybe I'm totally off my rocker    

[BrightonCorgi]

6 minutes ago, Philc2001 said:

To me it seems the blenders do little more than ratio blending by leaf category, meaning the recipe calls for  n amount of seco (call it "a"),  n amount of ligero (call it "b"), n amount of volado (call it "c"), d-binder leaf, e-wrapper leaf. Each may be from a certain tobacco strain, though I doubt there is much variety there. Thus in my mind the recipe is a+b+c+d all wrapped in e. It may not even be this involved.

If I'm right about that, then you can see why the flavors would change from harvest to harvest, year to year. Hence, when I find a box code that I really like I try to load up with the same date and box code. But maybe I'm totally off my rocker    

Does Montecristo or HdM use the same fincas year after year or is there another factor that decides which leaves are for which Marca?

[Zedman05]

My question is;

Grand Reserva cigars have aged tobacco in them. Why did Habanos decide on this ? Did they take the idea of aged cigars being better (from years of people outside the island telling them) and think it was a good marketing move ? Or did they just decide to change things up ? There should have been no incentive to make a cigar with aged tobacco in it, if we are thinking they have no concept of it. Is it strictly a marketing team idea, and not tobacco-centric personnel driven ?

[99call]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

Oh, yes, got you. Now, there's two aspects to it. The Cubans and also "old school" Spain is or has been known to have a preference for such 'punchy' cigars. But there may also be a slight misconception here: A cigar that appears brutally strong in its age, must not necessarily have been so when younger or freshly rolled. This is a matter of balance. Sometimes, in poor tobacco quality cigars (Cuba itself even classifies tobacco for longer or shorter shelf-life - for them actually not necessarily a matter of quality, just of time frame of consumption), some of the younger flavours (primary notes) may fade and go away with age. And a certain strength - I'd rather put it as body - originally perceived as pleasant when it initially kept everythig nicely in balance, will leave you with nothing more than that, quite as you put it, a brutal - boldness. Lacking in flavour, complexity and finesse. Side note: This is also the reason for why the pervieced "strength" of a young cigar alone is not telling anything about its potential for aging.

It can perhaps be compared to a good Amarone, where you don't taste it's 16% alc., or a Riesling where you don't notice its comparatively high acidity gradation. Because a richness in flavours and extract keeps everything nicely in check. Once that's been lost, you are left with a coarse, naked frame.

Very well put. Great concise post.

It's a very difficult situation, I think lots of people find it hard to reconcile the well documented haphazard way things occur in Habana, with the product that 'sometimes' seems Soooooo perfect.  Lots of people place all of that praise on the natural product, and say "ah well, even a broken clock is right 2 times a day". To me its a difficult conundrum. El Pres wrote a brilliant piece a month or so back, which was a sort of "Ode to Cuba" suggesting that the desire to somehow install a cold and calculating Zino Davidoff type, to turn the rolling houses into a hyper accurate Mercedes-esc production line, would be an abomination. 

No comment of what you've said. but I think we are often in danger of saying. "These cigars are great....what great tobacco" and conversely "These cigars are awful, bloody hopeless production (people)!"  

[ajgagnon]

What fun would it be without vintages to worry about in addition to rolling, storage, and provenance? I just like them when they are ‘on’ and appreciate that brands stick with regional tobacco and processing to stay true to their nature. The rest is up to the angels!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Philc2001]

7 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Does Montecristo or HdM use the same fincas year after year or is there another factor that decides which leaves are for which Marca?

Good question, I've often wondered about this myself. My gut suspicion is that the shorter the distance from farm to finished product the cheaper it is to produce, so I suspect that takes precedence. But certain factories are more apt to produce certain vitolas, so it may just seem that some marcas get their raw material from specific farms. But I don't really know.