What are your vintage flavour picks in Cuban Cigars??

[99call]

One fo the things I really enjoy in smoking CC's (amongst the many) is when unusual very defined flavours crop up. Now, amongst most cigar 'flavour wheels' the only seeds that feature are cumin or cardamom.  Cumin is something I most get in young erratic cigars, and (for me) only really occurs with Montecristo, Partagas, and Bolivar. Whereas cardamom could often be seen as a blend attribute to unusual cigars like long format ERDM.

One of the things I've noticed in aged/vintage cigars is you can get the following.   Caraway seed, Nigella seed (aka onion seeds or black caraway). This is something I've never noticed in cigars younger that 5-7 years

This got me wondering if it would be useful for the FOH community to list their 'vintage flavour picks', or stuff you will not find in young smokes (as a truism). I high proportion of people new to cigars feel as if they should be collecting vintage, without really knowing what they're getting themselves in for. And when asking, lots of seasoned smokers will suggest that there is a 'melding' and 'refinement'. This is all true, but often still leaves the new enthusiast back where they started, i.e. not knowing whether its worth the coin or not.

So FOH what are you vintage flavour picks? 

[BrightonCorgi]

I like the woodsy and mossy notes that come from some older cigars.  That and clean aftertaste.

[99call]

20 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I like the woodsy and mossy notes that come from some older cigars.  That and clean aftertaste.

Yep I would second that. Slightly disappointed that Part 898's that I've tasted recently are down in strength by about 25%. An aged 898 is magic  (especially 08s) for that damp forest floor character. Current 898's are smoking very well ROTT, but I think the blends been changed to accommodate people with no patience.

[BrightonCorgi]

12 minutes ago, 99call said:

Yep I would second that. Slightly disappointed that Part 898's that I've tasted recently are down in strength by about 25%. An aged 898 is magic  (especially 08s) for that damp forest floor character. Current 898's are smoking very well ROTT, but I think the blends been changed to accommodate people with no patience.

I have an older box (99-02) of the unvarnished where the first couple were tight and forgot about the box for many years (H&F box).  A couple of years ago I thought to give one go and they've been smoking perfect since then.  

[99call]

2 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I have an older box (99-02) of the unvarnished where the first couple were tight and forgot about the box for many years (H&F box).  A couple of years ago I thought to give one go and they've been smoking perfect since then.  

I've recently been smoking from a couple of 10 boxes from 2015, and they taste pretty much exactly like vintage PSduC No3, which is great in one respect, but thats not what 898's is about. You should be able to dial into how much 'mongrel' you want over a 15yr period. 

Hmm l love the fact that masses of collectors just disregard 99-00 boxes.  Yes plenty of them are are unsmokeable, but some are stunning.   Hat's off to you sir

[dvickery]

I just don’t get all the spices that others get in cigars ... from time to time I do get hints ... of the “vintage” examples I still have 

black olives from ‘89 to ‘93 upmanns

cedar from ‘92 to ‘96 hoyo du deputes

green tea from my mid 80’s partagas 898UV’s

still think the best years for cigars (no need for further aging) are about ‘89 to about ‘93 ... with ‘94 to ‘98 only a short distance from “best”.

derrek

[99call]

3 minutes ago, dvickery said:

I just don’t get all the spices that others get in cigars ... from time to time I do get hints ... of the “vintage” examples I still have 

I think 'spices' or 'spiciness'  can sometimes be a bit of a blurry term. 

I currently have some 2003 Dip 3's that taste of german gingerbread and beeswax furniture polish, and they are a delight. Sounds terrible, but so so good. Cheers for your addition, i've defo picked up tea from 898's in the past

[dvickery]

@99call

yes ‘03 ... who would have thought that the next great year after ‘97 ‘98 years was not going to be until ‘03 .

derrek

[Philc2001]

I may sound like a broken record, but I find many of the descriptions we use in describing cigar flavors are really describing the aroma and the mouth feel rather than actual flavor. For example, I sometimes smell cumin, cloves, cedar, damp oak on a fire, and various baking scents like bread and cakes. I like spending time in the kitchen cooking because I love food, so it often serves me as a frame of reference when a cigar reminds me of an herb or spice I use in cooking. My grandfather, who I got my name from, was a great chef and my parents were great cooks who cooked very elaborate and wonderful feasts for several events every year right through to their late years before they passed. Thus I have very fond memories of the aromas and flavors I enjoyed growing up in that environment, and therefore those sensory impulses are relatable for me. Also, I probably get more of the aroma because I tend to inhale a little wisp of smoke trail rising from the cigar as I take a drag.

Specifically to the aspect of tasting, I have had some mouth taste or feeling that reminds me of various coffees, teas, deserts, creams, etc. I've had that exhibit specific and unique after taste or sensations, which I also find distinct and easy to relate to. Similarly, the mouth feel from cocoa, cinnamon and certain types of spices strike a cord for me. It is especially enjoyable when a combination of aromas and senses combine in a harmonious balance that grabs your attention and lifts you to a higher plane as you relax and drift at a subconscious level that makes time stand still.

The best cigars that have given me such moving experiences in the past couple of years are the ERDM Tainos, Partagas Lonsdale, Partagas Lusitanias, Punch SS2, and Montecristo No. 1. Although all are different, they all exhibit a unique and special balance that capture my sensory reflexes, lift my spirit, and make me feel lucid and euphoric. I can only assume that these reflexes must act on me like dopamine, eliciting pleasure. 

[99call]

1 minute ago, Philc2001 said:

 I love food, so it often serves me as a frame of reference when a cigar reminds me of an herb or spice I use in cooking. 

Brilliant contribution Phil.

In my early years I'd worked as a chef, and come from a food obsessed family. I wouldn't be able to stand not being able to put a name to, or know something I enjoy experiencing in a cigar. 

Out of interest, (although you've highlighted you focus more on the wholistic experience). Are there any particular flavours you find in vintage cigars, that you you feel as if young cigars just don't possess?

 

[earthson]

Of the precious few antique cigars (some much older than me), my favorite note has been mint. It wasn't overpowering like a mentholated cigarette or leafy mojito, but also seemed to come along with a glorious tea/green tea accompaniment

FOHers - is there a cigar that you have reliably found to have this note?

[99call]

10 minutes ago, earthson said:

FOHers - is there a cigar that you have reliably found to have this note?

Party Serie Du Connie No 3. A few months ago I, and a few other members had noted a deep crushed mint character in 3 different vintages of this cigar. 

It would be important to note though, the more dominant flavours were a sort of Foie gras/aromatic corn character. Pigfish's review is very good attached in the link. 

Mint is picked up quite often my members, but i would say a good 80% of those were picked up in vintage medium-full bodied cigars like Party 898, Deleted punch lines etc.

[avaldes]

Interesting topic. Frankly I don't associate cigar flavors with food. I think that limits your ability to enjoy the experience. A Bolivar tastes like a Bolivar, which is completely different than a Sir Winston. In my mind I can taste them and think about the experience. But I don't try to assign food flavors since they are not food....was that a pork fat or duck fat flavor?

With that said, I do understand what people are trying to describe. For example the "grassy honey" taste of a young Cohiba. But again, that is just "Cohiba" in my mind. Each size and vintage has unique nuances that are special and just thinking about trying to assign Madagascar vanilla vs. vanilla extract sounds exhausting.

[99call]

5 minutes ago, avaldes said:

Interesting topic. Frankly I don't associate cigar flavors with food. I think that limits your ability to enjoy the experience. A Bolivar tastes like a Bolivar, which is completely different than a Sir Winston. In my mind I can taste them and think about the experience. But I don't try to assign food flavors since they are not food....was that a pork fat or duck fat flavor?

With that said, I do understand what people are trying to describe. For example the "grassy honey" taste of a young Cohiba. But again, that is just "Cohiba" in my mind. Each size and vintage has unique nuances that are special and just thinking about trying to assign Madagascar vanilla vs. vanilla extract sounds exhausting.

I think it's perfect that everyone has their own approach and way of 'taking in the experience' as it were.   Don't get me wrong, I don't sit down with a copy of Larousse and take notes on my cigars.  That said, flavour or scent are just chemical compounds, much like the active odour molecules on Stilton cheese are pretty much the same as atheletes foot.  

I would say the opposite to being exhausting, if you are very familiar with a wide range of flavours and smells, effectively the cigar can take it's path and be evocative without me having to really concentrate. A bit like playing the guitar, once you've learned the chords/tab, you no longer consciously think about finding the chord changes etc. 

You're right though, the only right answer is 'each to his own'

[prodigy]

The most common association of taste is through food. Once I started thinking about food, I was able to discern flavor profiles a lot better. Chocolate, honey, spices, earthy notes, sour dough, peppers etc is all flavors that are associated via foods. Even if you don't do that, your brain is sub consciously analyzing the flavors you pick up based on your food experiences. To specifically not think about food while smoking is only limiting the depth of what you can pick out in a cigar.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[IanMcLean68]

I'm surprised that the following hasn't been mentioned yet.  I haven't got a huge amount of experience with vintage Habanos yet myself, but one flavour profile that seems to crop up now and again in reviews with vintage stock are floral notes. I have noted this in one or two well aged sticks myself.

[Philc2001]

On 1/12/2018 at 9:41 AM, 99call said:

Out of interest, (although you've highlighted you focus more on the wholistic experience). Are there any particular flavours you find in vintage cigars, that you you feel as if young cigars just don't possess?

 

That is a very interesting question.

I have found cigar flavors tend to go through generations, where a particular family from a particular era have certain pronounced flavor characteristics, which are consistently present for a number of years (3-7 years), and then they change character and a new generation of flavors emerges.  Sometimes the change is subtle, sometimes more noticeable. For example, the Punch brand, and particularly the Super Selection (both 1 and 2) of the timeframe from 1998 to about 2003 had a very pungent Cuban twang, with a zesty citrusy tang to them, and very elegant cedary flavor profile. They seemed to shift into a more woodsy, toasted tobacco flavor during the late 2000s era, and then the brand was decimated. The few that remain are very different - much less pungent, more toasted tobacco core, slightly peppery - which is very uncharacteristic of previous Punch. 

The Partagas brand of that same era seemed to have a split personality; the PSD4, ELs, piramides and a handful of others seemed to exhibit a pronounced pepper, coffee and rich earth (loamy) character, whereas the Lusitanias, Lonsdale, 8-9-8 and PCs were more subdued on the pepper but were more flowery, aromatic and refreshing, sometimes exhibiting tea, cumin and fennel elements. I don't dabble much in the Partagas brand any more, but PSD4s and 8-9-8s from the past decade seem to be similar, somewhat aromatic and far more subdued on the pepper and earth.

Montecristo from the late 90s and early 2000s era where stronger but often had a very smooth chocolate, leather and creamy character, whereas in the last decade they have mellowed a bit and shifted significantly more towards coffee, citrus, cedar and unsweetened cocoa, and they are more aromatic than I remember. I like the newer Montes, they share some similarities with the older Punch brand. 

Bolivar is another that went through a very significant generational makeover to the point where I can't recognize them anymore. The Bolivars of the past as I recall were standouts for their strength and evocative flavor profiles, rich luxurious wood, somewhat fruity. I didn't have much experience with the earlier generations save for a few BBFs, Inmensas and PCs. The current PCs are nothing like the old PCs, their flavors seem far more ephemeral and subdued. I haven't tried younger BBFs, and the Inmensas and Lonsdales are gone.  

I think our own tastes shift over time too, so some aspects of these observations may be a bit of personal preferences (and leathering of my tonsils) and a bit of production/blending changes. I still cherish the few remaining standout cigars I have from the late 90s-2003 era on rare occasions, but I am also finding some very good cigars in recent productions, which is a journey we all seem to be on.

[99call]

4 hours ago, Philc2001 said:

I like the newer Montes, they share some similarities with the older Punch brand. 

Yep, completely agree that new quality Montes (when we can find them) are both great cigars now, but will be excellent laid down. For all we can find to winge about, there are still great new cigars out there.