99call Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 This thought goes back to a drunken conservation (of which I've had many). It basically centred on a moment then I was working down in a very isolated base far south, that only had very limited access to/resupply of wine, or anything really. The wine we did have was largely Australian or NZ stuff. Now whilst that wine wasn't any great quality, I was overjoyed then someone told me there was a stock of some similarly not great quality Spanish Rioja on base. In drinking it, I was chatting to some Aussies and NZ collegues and was commenting on that it was nice to have some wine with backbone. Now, I didn't mean backbone, insinuating that new world wines lacked gusto or impressive aspects, in many ways things like NZ Pino Noir or Argentinian Malbec can be some of the most interesting drops out there, but to me they lack a centre, a backbone. When tasting old world red wines, (and don't get me wrong there is some utter garbage out there) the foundation of the wine, its core, seems to be a great deal more present than that of the new world. A bit like a tree. I find new world wines to have big heavy branches with lost of colourful foliage, but with no trunk, (if that metaphor can just about strain to work) Anyway this got me thinking today, does the unmistakable cuban twang of CC's and it's backbone of class, work as a parallel to old world wine, and NC with their bright flashy flavours have a great deal in common with new world wine? I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but in general Be interested to hear what you guys think? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt45 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 I guess I'd say that in both cases, the elements of terroir, varietals, and production methods / style all play a part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99call Posted May 11, 2017 Author Share Posted May 11, 2017 5 hours ago, Colt45 said: I guess I'd say that in both cases, the elements of terroir, varietals, and production methods / style all play a part. Very good point, and I realise there can never be facts in these sort of discussions, rather truisims It's difficult as what I'm trying to get at, doesn't necessarily point to whats good, or whats bad. rather that I believe both old world wine and Cuban Cigars to possess ( to a large percentage) a foundation that (whether good or bad) competitors just don't possess. For example I think a cheap J L Piedra Cazadore may not be as 'good' as a Padron, but the JLP possesses an undescribable spine or body, that elevates it to be somehow more enjoyable (to me anyway) In a weird way another metaphor could be peasant food versus high end scientific gastronomy. If asked, I think I would say the latter may be more 'interesting' but the peasant food, far more enjoyable, and moreover what I actually desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesKPolkEsq Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 I always compare CC to NC with wine metaphor: CC:French Wine :: NC:California Wine Many people swear up and down that "French wine is the best", when what they mean is "French wine is the best to my taste". People have many reasons for expressing their opinion, based on tons of data and years of experience. However, if you smoke what you like and you'll be happier than blindly following an expert opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cigaraholic Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 I don't think you can make sober decisions based on "not great quality wine"....at least I can't. Being in the wine business all my life, if the wine isn't good quality......I have a beer. If your saying there's more terroir in modesty priced old world wine then new, I might agree with you. But being a very lucky, spoiled man, that's not my area of expertise. With respect to cigars, for me Cuban cigars are unique. The mouthfeel of Cuban cigars is the softest, smoothest on the planet. Cigars from other places make my mouth feel like an ashtray when I'm done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt45 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 1 hour ago, 99call said: It's difficult as what I'm trying to get at, doesn't necessarily point to whats good, or whats bad. rather that I believe both old world wine and Cuban Cigars to possess ( to a large percentage) a foundation that (whether good or bad) competitors just don't possess. I think your point was clear, and it's a great topic - in an effort to be brief, I think I often don't get across what I have running through my mind So to try and stay on the side of brevity, I've let go of trying to pigeonhole cigars based on origin - there are good, bad, and mediocre from everywhere. That said, for me the trait I find to be the common core of Cuban cigars is vanillin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99call Posted May 11, 2017 Author Share Posted May 11, 2017 36 minutes ago, cigaraholic said: I don't think you can make sober decisions based on "not great quality wine"....at least I can't. Being in the wine business all my life, if the wine isn't good quality......I have a beer. If your saying there's more terroir in modesty priced old world wine then new, I might agree with you. But being a very lucky, spoiled man, that's not my area of expertise. With respect to cigars, for me Cuban cigars are unique. The mouthfeel of Cuban cigars is the softest, smoothest on the planet. Cigars from other places make my mouth feel like an ashtray when I'm done. "if the wine isn't good quality......I have a beer" for the record the beer option was either Tui or Speights, both of which taste like flat dirty water. Again my point is not really centred around that of quality, more of what communicates to us on a very elemental, human level. i.e a NC might be popping of with flavours of toffee, cinnamon like fireworks etc etc, but for some reason CC feel a lot more sensory, and remind me of a forest walk, of the smell of the sea. CC seem to have a great deal more un-tangible class. I've drank some very good new world wines, and I'm not saying its inferior product, more that I find it more interesting than i do pleasurable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc2001 Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 That's a lot to think about. I think for me it's much simpler. It's a case of Cabernet versus Pinot Noir. Scotch versus Bourbon. IMPO it really just comes down to what your taste buds prefer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 12 hours ago, 99call said: This thought goes back to a drunken conservation (of which I've had many). It basically centred on a moment then I was working down in a very isolated base far south, that only had very limited access to/resupply of wine, or anything really. The wine we did have was largely Australian or NZ stuff. Now whilst that wine wasn't any great quality, I was overjoyed then someone told me there was a stock of some similarly not great quality Spanish Rioja on base. In drinking it, I was chatting to some Aussies and NZ collegues and was commenting on that it was nice to have some wine with backbone. Now, I didn't mean backbone, insinuating that new world wines lacked gusto or impressive aspects, in many ways things like NZ Pino Noir or Argentinian Malbec can be some of the most interesting drops out there, but to me they lack a centre, a backbone. When tasting old world red wines, (and don't get me wrong there is some utter garbage out there) the foundation of the wine, its core, seems to be a great deal more present than that of the new world. A bit like a tree. I find new world wines to have big heavy branches with lost of colourful foliage, but with no trunk, (if that metaphor can just about strain to work) Anyway this got me thinking today, does the unmistakable cuban twang of CC's and it's backbone of class, work as a parallel to old world wine, and NC with their bright flashy flavours have a great deal in common with new world wine? I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but in general Be interested to hear what you guys think? needless to say, i feel obliged to defend new world wines, at least some regions. in saying that, i come from a position where i have more of what are termed old world wines in my cellar than new world. and none of this is intended to correlate specifically with cigars, even if it does. i don't know how to do the multiple quote-y thing but i will try and cover a few other posts as well. i would argue that there is not necessarily any less backbone in new world but rather they, and this is an extreme generalisation, exhibit more fruit flavours and more generosity. and this can obscure what i believe you are talking about when you say backbone. what is interesting is that we are seeing wines, even at the very highest levels, attempt to emulate that. all the while dismissing new world. on the other hand, despite all the denials, there are still a great many winemakers in the new world who do attempt to replicate what the old world can do. the old world sometimes dismisses new world wines for not having the same austerity. it came as a great shock to them to discover that the general public preferred wines of generosity rather than austerity. this is why, starting back in the 80s, there were suddenly all these "flying winemakers" across france and spain and italy etc. and they were aussies. first thing they did was clean up the wineries. so many european wineries were basically unhygenic and downright filthy. some still are (i could name one or two of france's (think rhone) greatest. but it works for them. then, they brought out the fruit in these wines. 5 hours ago, cigaraholic said: If your saying there's more terroir in modesty priced old world wine then new, I might agree with you. well, miracles never cease - i worked out the quote-y thing. i'd disagree with this as well. it was very much the argument france put forward for years. they have terroir and nowhere else does. my backyard has just as much "terroir" as a great burgundy grand cru - it is just that my backyard's terroir does not work so well for growing grapes. i would argue that there is not more terroir but in many cases, it is more suitable for grapes than found elsewhere. but that said, plenty of places in italy, spain, germany, california, nz, australia with brilliant terroir. anyone really want to argue that the terroir in the vineyard called hill of grace is not as good as anything to be found? that said, as pinot and especially burgundy, is my ultimate wine (at its best), i cannot help but argue that is the "greatest terroir". 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gweilgi Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said: needless to say, i feel obliged to defend new world wines, at least some regions. in saying that, i come from a position where i have more of what are termed old world wines in my cellar than new world. and none of this is intended to correlate specifically with cigars, even if it does. i don't know how to do the multiple quote-y thing but i will try and cover a few other posts as well. i would argue that there is not necessarily any less backbone in new world but rather they, and this is an extreme generalisation, exhibit more fruit flavours and more generosity. and this can obscure what i believe you are talking about when you say backbone. what is interesting is that we are seeing wines, even at the very highest levels, attempt to emulate that. all the while dismissing new world. on the other hand, despite all the denials, there are still a great many winemakers in the new world who do attempt to replicate what the old world can do. IME, New World wines do tend to exhibit more fruit flavours and generosity, quite so. This may well be due to the fact that the climates in which they are grown tend to be hotter and sunnier. That said, I do find it perplexing that even as they are "bigger" in nose and mouth, I find that many of the same grapes varietals tend to be lighter on the palate when produced in Australia. With very few exceptions, I found this to be so for Pinot Noir and Sauvignon Blanc, but also for Sangiovese, Nebbiolo or Barbera (but oddly enough, not so for Viognier -- a Condrieu, to me, is far richer than most Aussie examples). By the bye, how would you define "backbone"? Tannins? Structure? 1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said: the old world sometimes dismisses new world wines for not having the same austerity. it came as a great shock to them to discover that the general public preferred wines of generosity rather than austerity. this is why, starting back in the 80s, there were suddenly all these "flying winemakers" across france and spain and italy etc. and they were aussies. first thing they did was clean up the wineries. so many european wineries were basically unhygenic and downright filthy. some still are (i could name one or two of france's (think rhone) greatest. but it works for them. then, they brought out the fruit in these wines. I wouldn't quite put this down entirely to a preference of generosity over austerity. IMHO, accessibility also mattered greatly: the offering of wine that was uncomplicated and undemanding, presented in a manner that reduced the "snob appeal" of wine. Marketing New World offerings at a very competitive price point also helped enormously ... even if nowadays it is not so much help for New World winemakers trying to break into markets where the general perception of their nations' wines is "cheap and cheerful" above anything else. Another point would also have been reliability and predictability: put simply, that one could buy bottles of the same wine form different shops weeks apart and have a very high confidence that one was getting the exact same drink. With old-style French, Italian or German wines, that was never a given -- there was always an element of variation from one bottle to the next, even within the same case. 1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said: well, miracles never cease - i worked out the quote-y thing. i'd disagree with this as well. it was very much the argument france put forward for years. they have terroir and nowhere else does. my backyard has just as much "terroir" as a great burgundy grand cru - it is just that my backyard's terroir does not work so well for growing grapes. i would argue that there is not more terroir but in many cases, it is more suitable for grapes than found elsewhere. but that said, plenty of places in italy, spain, germany, california, nz, australia with brilliant terroir. anyone really want to argue that the terroir in the vineyard called hill of grace is not as good as anything to be found? that said, as pinot and especially burgundy, is my ultimate wine (at its best), i cannot help but argue that is the "greatest terroir". Even the same or comparable terroir will produce different wines. Take Margaret River and Bordeaux, or the Champagne and the South of England: soil and climate are comparable, but the wines produced are rather different, even when winemakers expressly attempt to produce wines in the same style. Good topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99call Posted May 18, 2017 Author Share Posted May 18, 2017 On 2017-5-12 at 1:34 AM, Ken Gargett said: needless to say, i feel obliged to defend new world wines, at least some regions. in saying that, i come from a position where i have more of what are termed old world wines in my cellar than new world. and none of this is intended to correlate specifically with cigars, even if it does. i don't know how to do the multiple quote-y thing but i will try and cover a few other posts as well. i would argue that there is not necessarily any less backbone in new world but rather they, and this is an extreme generalisation, exhibit more fruit flavours and more generosity. and this can obscure what i believe you are talking about when you say backbone. what is interesting is that we are seeing wines, even at the very highest levels, attempt to emulate that. all the while dismissing new world. on the other hand, despite all the denials, there are still a great many winemakers in the new world who do attempt to replicate what the old world can do. the old world sometimes dismisses new world wines for not having the same austerity. it came as a great shock to them to discover that the general public preferred wines of generosity rather than austerity. this is why, starting back in the 80s, there were suddenly all these "flying winemakers" across france and spain and italy etc. and they were aussies. first thing they did was clean up the wineries. so many european wineries were basically unhygenic and downright filthy. some still are (i could name one or two of france's (think rhone) greatest. but it works for them. then, they brought out the fruit in these wines. well, miracles never cease - i worked out the quote-y thing. i'd disagree with this as well. it was very much the argument france put forward for years. they have terroir and nowhere else does. my backyard has just as much "terroir" as a great burgundy grand cru - it is just that my backyard's terroir does not work so well for growing grapes. i would argue that there is not more terroir but in many cases, it is more suitable for grapes than found elsewhere. but that said, plenty of places in italy, spain, germany, california, nz, australia with brilliant terroir. anyone really want to argue that the terroir in the vineyard called hill of grace is not as good as anything to be found? that said, as pinot and especially burgundy, is my ultimate wine (at its best), i cannot help but argue that is the "greatest terroir". Very eye opening, as I never really thought about wine in terms of generosity of flavour and austerity of flavour. I think that really answers the question. I guess growing up with old world wines, that lovely maudeline centre of the wine, effectively became what 'wine' tasted like to me. Then when my palette got exposed to new world wine, I'm tasting all sort of high notes, such as star anise, heavy vanilla, lush tart red fruits etc etc, my brain is effectively trying to pull back the curtains of the high notes and find where the flavour or 'wine' itself is. The problem being is that it's just different. For me when tasting old world wine, the centre or spine is the most enjoyable thing, and the high notes are more like trace touches, things that you pick up, then almost die away just as quickly as they arrived. I find this also true of the great cuban cigars, I much prefer something that has cerebral suggestions of butter or forest floor, that slip in and away again, than something that is screaming CHOCOLATE! CHOCOLATE! etc. As a curveball I've just been glugging back copious amounts of 'Gamaret' in Geneva, and couldn't get enough of the stuff. Very interesting varietal, and one that I've not had before. To some extent it combineds the best of old and new world wine, or a sign, as you pointed out, maybe there is an Aussie back of house, making them clean up there act? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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