Cigar names: singular vs. plural... driving me bananas!


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(I apologize in advance for this grammatical, rather Type A post.  But this has been building up for a while, and I can no longer resist.)

I'm a little bit confused about something, and it's bothered me for a few years now.  It's when someone says something like, "I'm really enjoying a robustos" or "I love a good coronas gordas".  It's the 's' at the end.  They're using the plural form when referring to a singular object.

I'm not at all certain of this, as I don't speak Spanish, but I think the singular forms of cigar names are not the same as the plural, e.g. robusto is the singular, robustos is the plural. 

I suspect that people get confused because of the (to my English-speaking ears) strange way that many cigar boxes are labeled.  We interpret the label which reads, for example, "Cohiba Lanceros" as a brand name, as if Lanceros is both the singular and the plural.  My gut feeling is that this is an error, that you smoke a singular lancero, but have a box of lanceros.

It's the same as with anything else.  You don't say, "I'm eating an Oreos", nor do you say, "A cool Coke-a-Colas really hits the spot on a hot day".  Names refer to singulars, gosh darn it.

...Don't they?  Shouldn't they?

...Is it just me? :) 

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Picador Gordo

(I apologize in advance for this grammatical, rather Type A post.  But this has been building up for a while, and I can no longer resist.) I'm a little bit confused about something, and it's both

here you go..........the final word on the subject................

It's not just you, the "S" makes it plural just like English.

 

Now I'm gonna go smoke a Picadores....lol

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Yeah I'm with you here.  The Especiales and Especial mess up and the (this is especialey for you @Fugu) petit Corona vs the Petite Corona is really annoying sometimes.  What about the Siglo line?  Why is it a box of Cohiba Robustos but not a box of Medio Siglos.  Or Siglo IVs.  Haha!  

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The "S" would typically make it plural. In fact, some of the cigars have English names ending in S and would therefore typically be plural, like Partagas Toppers. But many have English singular names, like "Fancy Tales of Smoke" and "Princess". And of course you have the Siglo line. So I would conclude that the name of the cigar is exactly as it is stated on the box. In other words, it is not plural. One cigar is a "Petit Coronas" and a box would be "25 Petit Coronas". This makes more sense as there are many cigar names impossible to singularize, like the Picadores. One could not refer to one cigar as a "Picadore".

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11 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The "S" would typically make it plural. In fact, some of the cigars have English names ending in S and would therefore typically be plural, like Partagas Toppers. But many have English singular names, like "Fancy Tales of Smoke" and "Princess". And of course you have the Siglo line. So I would conclude that the name of the cigar is exactly as it is stated on the box. In other words, it is not plural. One cigar is a "Petit Coronas" and a box would be "25 Petit Coronas". This makes more sense as there are many cigar names impossible to singularize, like the Picadores. One could not refer to one cigar as a "Picadore".

I would agree for those cigar names which are not possible to make singular.  But for those that are possible to make singular, my overwhelming instinct is to use that form.  I do not trust that Habanos knows what they're doing with words.  (Again: unless there's some special Spanish linguistic feature, or cigar custom at play).

There's no consistency even within a marca.  Cohiba offers both the Robustos (plural) and Piramide Extra (singular).   The Montecristo page of the Habanos SA site lists the Edmundo cigar (singular!), but also Edmundo Tubos (plural!), and Petit Edmundo Tubo (singular!), and Petit Tubos (plural again!).  Madness, I tell you.  Madness.

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Equadorian.............currently the most misused descriptor in the cigar world.

Ask the ambassador of Ecuador if he is "Ecuadorian."

 

"One could not refer to one cigar as a "Picadore". "

One certainly could do so,with ease.

Ever seen a bullfight?

 

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7 minutes ago, garbandz said:

"One could not refer to one cigar as a "Picadore". "

One certainly could do so,with ease.

Ever seen a bullfight?

A "picador", actually, which is a sort of lancero who fights a bull…

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22 minutes ago, planetary said:

I would agree for those cigar names which are not possible to make singular.  But for those that are possible to make singular, my overwhelming instinct is to use that form.  I do not trust that Habanos knows what they're doing with words.  (Again: unless there's some special Spanish linguistic feature, or cigar custom at play).

There's no consistency even within a marca.  Cohiba offers both the Robustos (plural) and Piramide Extra (singular).   The Montecristo page of the Habanos SA site lists the Edmundo cigar (singular!), but also Edmundo Tubos (plural!), and Petit Edmundo Tubo (singular!), and Petit Tubos (plural again!).  Madness, I tell you.  Madness.

I agree, the instinct is there. But as there is no consistency even within marcas as you point out, the only rule that makes sense is that the name of the cigar is what the box states, singular. I've also discovered other discrepancies between boxes and the Habanos online catalog, such as the online catalog calling the Monte Especiales No. 2 the Monte Especial No. 2. I have decided to defer to what the box says in these cases.

20 minutes ago, garbandz said:

"One could not refer to one cigar as a "Picadore". "

One certainly could do so,with ease.

Ever seen a bullfight?

Yes, the word may exist, but referring to a single cigar by that name makes no sense. I'm pointing out that even though it appears acceptable to refer to a single cigar as a "Petit Corona" it is as incorrect as referring to a single PL Picadores as a "Picadore" or "Picador".

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Show us your basis for this statement.... 

"I'm pointing out that even though it appears acceptable to refer to a single cigar as a "Petit Corona" it is as incorrect as referring to a single PL Picadores as a "Picadore"

 

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2 minutes ago, garbandz said:

Show us your basis for this statement.... 

"I'm pointing out that even though it appears acceptable to refer to a single cigar as a "Petit Corona" it is as incorrect as referring to a single PL Picadores as a "Picadore"

I just outlined my basis for concluding the cigars' names are singular in the myriad posts above.

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2 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I agree, the instinct is there. But as there is no consistency even within marcas as you point out, the only rule that makes sense is that the name of the cigar is what the box states, singular. 

Why would you conclude that?  If given a plural word describing a group of cigars, which is more natural:

1) Using the singular form of that word to refer to a singular cigar.
2) Making the assumption that Habanos labels are carefully validated for branding and correctness, and they're intent is to specify both the plural and singular forms of their product are the same, in all cases, for all their products.

Hmm.  I know which one I'd choose. :) 

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21 minutes ago, planetary said:

Why would you conclude that?  If given a plural word describing a group of cigars, which is more natural:

1) Using the singular form of that word to refer to a singular cigar.
2) Making the assumption that Habanos labels are carefully validated for branding and correctness, and they're intent is to specify both the plural and singular forms of their product are the same, in all cases, for all their products.

Hmm.  I know which one I'd choose. :) 

You are concluding that it is definitely plural, and I am pointing out that Habanos uses both singular and plural names on boxes, and it can't be both. For your argument to hold, Habanos must use both singular and plural to describe boxes of 25, which makes less sense. So from that it can be inferred that all names are singular, even those that appear plural. The Picadores example was meant to point out how odd it would be to refer to one cigar as singular whereas it's much more natural to call one Petit Coronas a "Petit Corona", but they would be equally incorrect if all Cuban cigar names are singular, which I believe they are.

The only assumption I'm making is that Habanos labels cigars as either plural or singular. That is not too difficult an assumption to make. And also because no singular form of names with what appear to be plural suffixes has ever been acknowledged by Habanos. I contend that anyone calling one Petit Coronas a "Petit Corona" or a Hussars a "Hussar" is doing that themselves, on their own, and mistakenly. Habanos has never used the term "Petit Corona". If you can find that, I'd like to see it.

In fact, some are even more difficult to singularize than the Picadores. Would one have referred to one Largos de Larranaga as a Largo de Larranaga? That's simply a perversion of the name. It makes much more sense that this is a singular name already.

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My take on it:

First - as Planetary sais - Cuban cigar naming is anything but consistent. So don't take it all too serious!

Second - Vitolas de salida are representing proper names (nombre propio), that usually are being used as is. Vitolas de galera are not, they are technical terms, which can be used in plural and in singular form (in my opinion, not so on CCW).

Therefore, I am smoking a Bolívar Petit Coronas, which is a Mareva, or a Petit Corona, in case of the machine made one (and as we are at it, the brand's name is pronounced Bo-leeevar and not Bolllevar.... B))
I am smoking a SLR Churchill (not a Churchills), which is a Julieta No. 2
I am smoking a Boli Lonsdales which is a Cervantes (not a Cervante, mind you!), but which can be named a Lonsdale as well.
I am smoking a Partagas Toppers, which is a Toppers format.
I am smoking a Connossieur A, although we all know it's a misspelling.
I am smoking a Serie du Connaisseur No. 3, though I am just able to smoke one single cigar at a time.... :cigar:

 

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18 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I contend that anyone calling one Petit Coronas a "Petit Corona" or a Hussars a "Hussar" is doing that themselves, on their own, and mistakenly. Habanos has never used the term "Petit Corona". If you can find that, I'd like to see it.

Here: http://www.habanos.com/en/el-mundo-del-habano/principales-formatos/

They use the singular form to refer to a singular cigar -- which is what I believe we're meant to do, and is natural to do.  This is confusing precisely because Habanos box labels seem to have a history of being contents descriptions, e.g. 25 Petit Coronas.  We're confusing box contents with names of cigars, which ends up with us using plural forms for singular cigars, which is conceptually silly and linguistically incorrect.

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1 minute ago, Fugu said:

My take on it:

First - as Planetary sais - Cuban cigar naming is anything but consistent. So don't take it all too serious!

Second - Vitolas de salida are representing proper names (nombre propio), that usually are being used as is. Vitolas de galera are not, they are technical terms, which can be used in plural and in singular form (in my opinion, not so on CCW).

Therefore, I am smoking a Bolívar Petit Coronas, which is a Mareva, or a Petit Corona, in case of the machine made one (and as we are at it, the brand's name is pronounced Bo-leeevar and not Bolllevar.... B))
I am smoking a SLR Churchill (not a Churchills), which is a Julieta No. 2
I am smoking a Boli Lonsdales which is a Cervantes (not a Cervante, mind you!), but which can be named a Lonsdale as well.
I am smoking a Partagas Toppers, which is a Toppers format.
I am smoking a Connossieur A, although we all know it's a misspelling.
I am smoking a Serie du Connaisseur No. 3, though I am just able to smoke one single cigar at a time.... :cigar:

 

Correct, vitolas de galera can be plural and singular. There is such a thing as a Corona. There is not such a thing as a Petit Corona. There is no Petit Corona vitola, nor does the name "Petit Corona" appear anywhere on a box or catalog. Calling a Mareva a "Petit Corona" is simply use of a common name or term, even if the cigar is actually named "Petit Coronas".

I agree, HSA is in no way the epitome of consistency. But in this case, they appear to be consistent going all the way back to the Revolution.

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4 minutes ago, planetary said:

 

Here: http://www.habanos.com/en/el-mundo-del-habano/principales-formatos/

They use the singular form to refer to a singular cigar -- which is what I believe we're meant to do, and is natural to do.  This is confusing precisely because Habanos box labels seem to have a history of being contents descriptions, e.g. 25 Petit Coronas.  We're confusing box contents with names of cigars, which ends up with us using plural forms for singular cigars, which is conceptually silly and linguistically incorrect.

Those are vitolas, not names. As I said above, vitolas can be both singular and plural. I do not believe names can be.

And if the names are simply box content descriptions, how do you explain "25 Fancy Tales of Smoke" or "25 Princess"?

The fact that there are clearly singular box names to me proves that they're all singular.

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6 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Correct, vitolas de galera can be plural and singular. There is such a thing as a Corona. There is not such a thing as a Petit Corona. There is no Petit Corona vitola, nor does the name "Petit Corona" appear anywhere on a box or catalog. Calling a Mareva a "Petit Corona" is simply use of a common name or term, even if the cigar is actually named "Petit Coronas".

I agree, HSA is in no way the epitome of consistency. But in this case, they appear to be consistent going all the way back to the Revolution.

I think there is too much inconsistency in Habanos' practices to discern any pattern, whether in the use of commercial names or factory names:

The "basic" form of Coronas is not consistently with an "s", because you run into Habanos using Gran Corona for the Monte A size.

If you cleave to the commercial names as used on the boxes/labels, you run into the very uncomfortable practice, for English speakers, of having to refer to "smoking a Wide Churchills" or a "a Bolivar Royal Coronas".

Then you also have the hybrid English-Spanish names - surely they are Bolivar Real Coronas instead of Royal Coronas?

I confess to being just generally confused.

 

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6 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Those are vitolas, not names. As I said above, vitolas can be both singular and plural. I do not believe names can be.

The phrase in singular form is used on this page to refer to a singular cigar, and on the labels of boxes in plural form to refer to groups of cigars.  This illustrates to me that the phrase can be both singular and plural, which is a direct answer to your question. :) 

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2 minutes ago, planetary said:

The phrase in singular form is used on this page to refer to a singular cigar, and on the labels of boxes in plural form to refer to groups of cigars.  This illustrates to me that the phrase can be both singular and plural, which is a direct answer to your question. :) 

No, just because the vitola may also be the name of the cigar does not change anything. This can be confusing, but you are in fact still confusing the vitola with the name. A "Partagas Piramides" may be a "Piramide" but that does not mean that one Partagas Piramides" is a "Partagas Piramide".

6 minutes ago, SirVantes said:

 

I think there is too much inconsistency in Habanos' practices to discern any pattern, whether in the use of commercial names or factory names:

The "basic" form of Coronas is not consistently with an "s", because you run into Habanos using Gran Corona for the Monte A size.

If you cleave to the commercial names as used on the boxes/labels, you run into the very uncomfortable practice, for English speakers, of having to refer to "smoking a Wide Churchills" or a "a Bolivar Royal Coronas".

Then you also have the hybrid English-Spanish names - surely they are Bolivar Real Coronas instead of Royal Coronas?

I confess to being just generally confused.

There actually appears to be very little if any inconsistency in this area. As long as one understands the difference between the name of the cigar and the vitola of the cigar, there should be no confusion. We are not talking about vitolas at all, which absolutely can be both singular and plural. Names cannot be, as there are both plural and singular names of cigars used by HSA, and it can only be one. So while a plural name could be singular, a singular name cannot be plural. So logically, they must all be singular if singular names are used, which they are. See "Partagas Princess". Also, again, HSA has never used the term "Petit Corona". Ever. It is not a vitola and is not the name of a cigar. Nor have they ever used the term "Lonsdale". There are cigars named "Lonsdales" but that is not a vitola nor is it a name. 

 

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Just now, NSXCIGAR said:

No, just because the vitola may also be the name of the cigar does not change anything. This can be confusing, but you are in fact still confusing the vitola with the name. A "Partagas Piramides" may be a "Piramide" but that does not mean that one Partagas Piramides" is a "Partagas Piramide".

...as opposed to the Cohiba Piramide Extra, which is shown on this Habanos SA page to be singular?

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7 minutes ago, planetary said:

...as opposed to the Cohiba Piramide Extra, which is shown on this Habanos SA page to be singular?

The boxes say "Piramides Extra". I, and Alex at CCW, would defer to the boxes. Another case of the online catalog being incorrect as they are with the Monte Especiales No. 2. And, ironically, it is a Piramides Extra vitola. 

Regardless, I'm not denying there are names that appear both singular and plural. In fact, that is my argument. You can't have both, and if clearly singular names exist, we know they must all be singular because while plural (or plural-appearing) names can be singular, singular can't possibly be plural.

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