What Makes the Difference

[cigarbigboy]

The recent thread on the similarities between Monte 2 and VRU raised perhaps a gaping flaw in my cigar knowledge, specifically brought out by discussions among my friends and I smoking fantastic cigars on New Years Eve.

What makes the difference in the same vitolas, but different brands?

Obviously, there are several differences that are well known, those being the differences between wrapper, binder and filler, the craftsmanship of workers, and the different factories' overall competence level.

But we also know that, for instance, factories may produce for different brands, and the same wrapper, perhaps Robaina, may be used for different brands and vitolas.

Here, for all to see, are the questions I'm unsure of. Go ahead. Laugh at the evidence of my lack of knowledge. But help me understand....

1. Do the three types of tobacco of the wrappers, filler, and binder always come from the same grower and general geographic area for a specific brand/vitola, thus giving the brand/vitola a uniqueness from year to year? Obviously, the whole Vuelta Abajo growing area is small, but I mean a specific area for say Monte 2 wrappers, and other areas for the other component parts? In Burgundy, for instance, there may be a vineyards that is a quarter of a hectare, but is uniquely a brand, with different price points and tastes. Is it like that? Are the component parts proprietary?

2. Do the different factories producing a specific vitola and brand use the exact same three component tobaccos so the only difference is the craftsmanship for a particular year? Is it only craftsmanship that creates the fluctuations between the same brand/vitola among different factories for a given year? Why can factory flavor profiles for the same brand, vitola, and year vary so wildly, to make one think it's not even the same cigar?

3. Are there, indeed, different formulas that are proprietary that define that particular brand's vitola compared to other brand vitolas? EG: Cohiba does a third fermentation. Do the specific brands vary with the same vitolas on which leaves they use, etc relative the the leaves' position on the tobacco plant? Or do they all do generally the same "formula" for a particular vitola, making the difference in the brands sometimes almost indistinguishable, such as in the Monte 2/VRU debate?

4. Lastly, I know that the ratio of binder/filler/wrapper is going to change due to the size of a vitola. My question is, is it only that particular size/ratio difference that creates the difference in flavor profiles of the same line/brand, or does the same brand use wildly different tobaccos to achieve different flavor profiles on the different vitolas within their line? And yes, I know that for instance Cohiba has several different lines with tobaccos and flavor profiles, with different vitolas in each. But I'm referring to specific lines that we assume to be the same within the same brand, but with different vitolas. Put simply, is the stuff in a Monte 2 the same stuff that's in an Edmundo of a given year, with just a different ratio due to the different size which creates different flavor profiles?

I can't be the only one here to be this ignorant? At least I won't be as ignorant after I read your answers.

[stogieluver]

All good questions. I'm curious and waiting for the answers.

[Colt45]

This might answer a few questions (scroll down to composing the blend):

Link

[bman75]

+1 on this well-formed list of questions. I have had these in my head for a while but couldn't have asked the questions so clearly.

In addition to insight on Habanos' approach, I'd also like to know how it differs from a typical NC producer.

[cigarbigboy]

It may take the Prez or Ken to give us some guidance on this...

[cigarbigboy]

This might answer a few questions (scroll down to composing the blend):

Link

this was helpful though many questions remain.

[Smallclub]

In Burgundy, for instance, there may be a vineyards that is a quarter of a hectare, but is uniquely a brand, with different price points and tastes. Is it like that?

Yes. Like in the Bordeaux region, as well.

As for your other questions, roughly, the factory and the craftsmanshift are not supposed to have an influence on the profile (El Laguito being the exception).

[Colt45]

this was helpful though many questions remain.

It's always been my understanding that to satisfy blend requirements, tobacco is chosen by it's characteristics rather than by which farm it came from.

[NSXCIGAR]

Tobacco from different areas will generally have different properties. Tobacco from certain regions and certain farms with certain properties are generally designated for certain brands and certain vitolas. Blenders designate the appropriate leaves for the rollers based on the cigar being rolled.

The main caveat, however, is that you have one mostly state-run entity controlling the entire industry and all the so-called "brands". When everything's basically under one roof there's all sorts of QC and blending issues that can arise and spill over to all products. When there's a problem or a shortage, for example, one brand, some brands or all brands can be affected. HSA can steal from one brand to feed another. A problem in one factory can result in the many brands being produced there being affected.

So the point of the Monte 2/VR Unicos thread was that there's really no way to know for a fact that the two cigars aren't physically the same with different bands. HSA could do that and nobody would know. The reduction in brand character and overall consistency in the last 20 years or so makes it more difficult to tell by smoking whether two cigars have different blends. And since all CCs come from the same company all bets are off.

[cigarbigboy]

Tobacco from different areas will generally have different properties. Tobacco from certain regions and certain farms with certain properties are generally designated for certain brands and certain vitolas. Blenders designate the appropriate leaves for the rollers based on the cigar being rolled.

The main caveat, however, is that you have one mostly state-run entity controlling the entire industry and all the so-called "brands". When everything's basically under one roof there's all sorts of QC and blending issues that can arise and spill over to all products. When there's a problem or a shortage, for example, one brand, some brands or all brands can be affected. HSA can steal from one brand to feed another. A problem in one factory can result in the many brands being produced there being affected.

So the point of the Monte 2/VR Unicos thread was that there's really no way to know for a fact that the two cigars aren't physically the same with different bands. HSA could do that and nobody would know. The reduction in brand character and overall consistency in the last 20 years or so makes it more difficult to tell by smoking whether two cigars have different blends. And since all CCs come from the same company all bets are off.

interesting. the whole government run approach is so against the analogies of French wines.... does anyone know if within a line the tobaccos are always the same?

[Smallclub]

It's always been my understanding that to satisfy blend requirements, tobacco is chosen by it's characteristics rather than by which farm it came from.

I don't think so. And I've always been told the opposite.

btw, the Hoyo de San Juan is supposed to be the first habano rolled exclusively with leaves from a single area (San Juan y Martinez).

[Colt45]

I don't think so. And I've always been told the opposite.

District or farm?

[PigFish]

I find myself going back to what I know about Tabacuba. They are known for cheating! They will put sub-par wrappers on things that sell, hurry production for things that they think will sell and so forth. Ask Rob how many cigars he rejects! Quality control is an issue at Tabacuba. Quality control, or lack of it, represents a form of cheating.

So while there may be rules, those rules only mean something if you don't cheat on them. A company that has a reputation of cheating, therefore, has no rules.

To conclude, regardless of the rule, if a textbook rule exists, beyond the textbook it cannot coexist with a company that has quality control issues.

A rule that is only followed when it is convenient is a preference or an option. As usual, I will not rely on what propaganda comes from Tabacuba and simply put my faith in what I know about them! I trust my taste and little else.

-Piggy

[cigarbigboy]

what I'm seeing is that Rob opening the box and telling us what he smells, sees, and feels first hand in a particular group he puts up for sale is far more important than the brand.

[PigFish]

what I'm seeing is that Rob opening the box and telling us what he smells, sees, and feels first hand in a particular group he puts up for sale is far more important than the brand.

I would have to agree with this.

I know Rob has told me that he has stock and not to buy it... That clearly meant that he believed that what he had would not satisfy me. That is a judgment call, and quite frankly it has served me well in the many years that I have done business with him.

Of course I never tasted the cigars he rejected. That is the gamble that one takes when they trust someone. I am happy with the the result.

-P

[Smallclub]

what I'm seeing is that Rob opening the box and telling us what he smells, sees, and feels first hand in a particular group he puts up for sale is far more important than the brand.

Not really. If one doesn't like the Partagas spices, of find Hoyo or Sancho Panza much too mild, the quality of a box won't change anything.

[Paul3]

Not really. If one doesn't like the Partagas spices, of find Hoyo or Sancho Panza much too mild, the quality of a box won't change anything.

Actually it does. Unless you simply don't consider flavor or body in "quality" of a cigar.

[Smallclub]

Actually it does. Unless you simply don't consider flavor or body in "quality" of a cigar.

So even if you don't like a cigar or a marca, you'll buy a box because someone tells you it's a good box?

I know many guys who don't like Partagas (too spicy) or Bolivar (too strong, too earthy), you can offer them the best Partagas or Bolivar available at the moment, they won't put their money in a product that they know by experience they wouldn't enjoy...

[Paul3]

So even if you don't like a cigar or a marca, you'll buy a box because someone tells you it's a good box?

I know many guys who don't like Partagas (too spicy) or Bolivar (too strong, too earthy), you can offer them the best Partagas or Bolivar available at the moment, they won't put their money in a product that they know by experience they wouldn't enjoy...

Imagine if we never tried a marca based on a friends review. Many may have never begun smoking cigars. Imagine if nobody tasted a wine based of a friends suggestion. What a way to miss out on some of the nicer things in life. Imagine never giving a marca a second, third or fourth chance over the years because you "know" you won't enjoy it.....after all quality in Habanos hasn't gone back and forth over the years (roll eyes).

I know many guys that didn't like Juan Lopez or Bolivar and I've changed several opinions after an offer of a better quality JL or Boli...say PSP instead of PE.

[cigarbigboy]

Imagine if we never tried a marca based on a friends review. Many may have never begun smoking cigars. Imagine if nobody tasted a wine based of a friends suggestion. What a way to miss out on some of the nicer things in life. Imagine never giving a marca a second, third or fourth chance over the years because you "know" you won't enjoy it.....after all quality in Habanos hasn't gone back and forth over the years (roll eyes).

I know many guys that didn't like Juan Lopez or Bolivar and I've changed several opinions after an offer of a better quality JL or Boli...say PSP instead of PE.

exactly. I'd rather have a first hand account of a cigar than all manner of second hand information. And, as you point out, things can change.

[JohnS]

I find myself going back to what I know about Tabacuba. They are known for cheating! They will put sub-par wrappers on things that sell, hurry production for things that they think will sell and so forth. Ask Rob how many cigars he rejects! Quality control is an issue at Tabacuba. Quality control, or lack of it, represents a form of cheating.

So while there may be rules, those rules only mean something if you don't cheat on them. A company that has a reputation of cheating, therefore, has no rules.

To conclude, regardless of the rule, if a textbook rule exists, beyond the textbook it cannot coexist with a company that has quality control issues.

A rule that is only followed when it is convenient is a preference or an option. As usual, I will not rely on what propaganda comes from Tabacuba and simply put my faith in what I know about them! I trust my taste and little else.

-Piggy

Cheating, or otherwise known as having to make use of all resources. From what I understand, nothing, and I mean nothing is wasted, whether it's bands, boxes, inserts, wrappers, leaf etc, hence the quality control issues. But like yourself Ray, I'm grateful for our host's quality control in his diligence in checking mastercases and segregating stock!

[jwr0201]

what I'm seeing is that Rob opening the box and telling us what he smells, sees, and feels first hand in a particular group he puts up for sale is far more important than the brand.

I think there is a lot of merit in this. A trained palate that is able to determine subtle differences in the various brands components is particularly important. That is, if he's not been partying too much!

[jwr0201]

Excellent subjects to bring to light. I cannot help but wonder if substitutions during construction and manufacturing in the way of assembling one brand with wrappers from a different brand, is not fairly commonplace. Maybe that is what's responsible for those cigars we often hear/read about that are completely different or not up to par with boxes from different months. I know that in manufacturing, this type of substitution does happen often. If different lines are manufactured in the same factory, my bet is that is occurs much more often than most of us realize. Particularly if components of one line are in short supply or are late in arriving to keep production on schedule. Just think, it may be possible to luck out and get the best wrappers from one married to the best binders of another and high quality fillers from yet another!

[cigarbigboy]

So I guess this means that each factory may well improvise on a given marca/vitola on a regular basis. It isn't just craftsmanship that differentiates one factory from another, but also the component parts. If I understand then a Monte 2 for instance from one factory won't be the same one you'd get from another factory.

How about different tobaccos in different vitolas within a line? I guess they're as unpredictable as the other aspects of production.

[Fugu]

So I guess this means that each factory may well improvise on a given marca/vitola on a regular basis. It isn't just craftsmanship that differentiates one factory from another, but also the component parts. If I understand then a Monte 2 for instance from one factory won't be the same one you'd get from another factory.

How about different tobaccos in different vitolas within a line? I guess they're as unpredictable as the other aspects of production.

Caution here, I’d say. JWR states, he is wondering…. So this is nothing more than unproven, perhaps even unfounded speculation.

Counterquestion: If this were so, i.e. the rule rather than the exception, how come that certain cigars are scarce on the ground at times, such as SW 2015, while there certainly is demand and HSA/Tabacuba could make a good profit from such high-price cigars?