Only 3 Cubans in CA top 20

[Puros Y Vino]

You guys might find this interesting. On Reddit, there is a forum for cigars known as "r/cigars" They did an AMA (Ask Me Anything) where the Editors of CA sat in a room and fielded questions from the members. Some questions were kinda hard hitting and they handled them well.

Cigar Aficianado AMA.

[oliverdst]

the more NC's in top 25 the better

if you want something serious http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=125423&hl=

[Vortigan]

I'm surprised there were as many as 3! It's all to be taken with a very large touch of salt!

[jp1979]

Why put so much emphasis on their Top 25? Its all BS anyway. I actually only look at the connoisseur's corner section just to see what kind of stuff they pull from Shankin's stash.

[Fugu]

It really is funny how this CA AMA link has now been posted several times, here and in the other thread, but nobody appears to be really taking notice of it. There are some real eye openers.

In trying to give some factual substance to this annual discussion (beyond supposed aspects of intended NC-bias, of “paid reviewing”, editorial advertising and that stuff) one may just carefully read some of the answers posted there.

Taking e.g. that statement given by Greg Mottola of their actual tasting procedure and then putting it up against one's own personal way of reviewing and assessing the characteristics and personality of a cigar – voilà, you’ve got your answer! Several aspects to pick from that single paragraph alone.

There are other answers that make me wonder how at all a CC could have managed to get onto the list anyway, e.g.:

Q: Also, on the review process; how do you select which cigars do vs which don't get selected for review?

A: Well, as tasting coordinator I visit cigar shops all around NYC and buy cigars at retail for use in the tastings. I assess what’s selling, what’s popular, and I make sure the tastings reflect the general pulse of the marketplace. And that includes a balance of small boutique brands and cigars from larger producers. -DC

So - how come there is CC on that list? Not popular, not selling and neither reflecting the general pulse of the marketplace – and not even been sold in shops in NYC anyway….

or

Q: What is your favorite color?

A: Maduro – Everyone (CigarAficionadoMag)

We learn - there is a uniform preference for maduro across the panel – Now check out the number of generic maduro CC vs. maduro NCs…

And this all doesn't let folks wonder how large the fraction of CCs might actually be making it into the selection for review in the first place?!!

There even doesn't need to be an intended bias in the results at all (and they do blind tastings for the record) - what's not been tested can't make it into the Top 25.

[JohnS]

How can there be only 3 Cuban cigars in Cigar Aficionado's 2015 top 25???

They cater for their market, most of whom smoke Non-Cuban cigars. I attended a wedding on Monday night at the Watson's Bay Boutique Hotel. It was a nice venue, and a nice cool rainy night for a cigar later on with the father of the bride and friends and family. One of these guys showed me an image on his phone taken while he was in Cuba at a function with Cigar Aficionado staff. I'll let you know what they were smoking in person the next time we catch for a cigar at the Rocks Brewery, Alexandria. (We'll aim for a catch-up soon after the New Year in January 2016)

Their magazine. Let them do what they wish.

Yes, well said!

They need to support the companies that advertise with them. Imagine what would happen if there were only three NC's in their list.

Too true!

It really is funny how this CA AMA link has now been posted several times, here and in the other thread, but nobody appears to be really taking notice of it. There are some real eye openers.

In trying to give some factual substance to this annual discussion (beyond supposed aspects of intended NC-bias, of “paid reviewing”, editorial advertising and that stuff) one may just carefully read some of the answers posted there.

Taking e.g. that statement given by Greg Mottola of their actual tasting procedure and then putting it up against one's own personal way of reviewing and assessing the characteristics and personality of a cigar – voilà, you’ve got your answer! Several aspects to pick from that single paragraph alone.

There are other answers that make me wonder how at all a CC could have managed to get onto the list anyway, e.g.:

Q: Also, on the review process; how do you select which cigars do vs which don't get selected for review?

A: Well, as tasting coordinator I visit cigar shops all around NYC and buy cigars at retail for use in the tastings. I assess what’s selling, what’s popular, and I make sure the tastings reflect the general pulse of the marketplace. And that includes a balance of small boutique brands and cigars from larger producers. -DC

So - how come there is CC on that list? Not popular, not selling and neither reflecting the general pulse of the marketplace – and not even been sold in shops in NYC anyway….

or

Q: What is your favorite color?

A: Maduro – Everyone (CigarAficionadoMag)

We learn - there is a uniform preference for maduro across the panel – Now check out the number of generic maduro CC vs. maduro NCs…

And this all doesn't let folks wonder how large the fraction of CCs might actually be making it into the selection for review in the first place?!!

There even doesn't need to be an intended bias in the results at all (and they do blind tastings for the record) - what's not been tested can't make it into the Top 25.

You bring up a good point about tasting bias. There has been an inclination towards larger ring-gauged and maduro cigars from previous Top 25 lists.

[JohnS]

Cigar Aficionado Top 25 lists 2004-2015 Cuban Cigar Nominations

2004 - 3 Cohiba Siglo VI, 8 Montecristo No.2, 12 San Cristobal de la Habana El Morro, 15 H. Upmann Magnum 46
2005 - 2 Montecristo Edmundo, 5 Partagas Serie D No.4 Reserva, 14 H.Upmann Magnum 50 Edicion Limitada 2005, 15 Cohiba Siglo II, 17 Montecristo D Edicion Limitada 2005, 19 Bolivar Petit Corona
2006 - 1 Bolivar Royal Corona, 4 Romeo y Julieta Short Churchill, 18 Montecristo Edicion Limitada 2006, 21 Punch Super Selection No.1, 23 Diplomaticos No.2, 25 Montecristo Petit Tubo
2007 - 3 Montecristo No. 2, 6 Cohiba Maduro 5 Secretos, 11 Montecristo Petit Edmundo , 16 Punch Double Corona
2008 - 6 Romeo y Julieta Short Churchill, 7 H.Upmann Sir Winston, 11 Juan Lopez Seleccion No.2, 19 San Cristobal de la Habana La Fuerza, 22 Bolivar Belicosos Finos
2009 - 2 Cohiba Siglo V Tubo, 10 Partagas Serie P No.2 Tubo, 17 Partagas Salomon
2010 - 1 Cohiba Behike BHK 52, 9 H.Upmann No.2, 21 Partagas Lusitania
2011 - 4 Partagas Serie P No .2, 8 Punch Double Corona, 15 Hoyo de Monterrey Double Corona, 21 H.Upmann No.2
2012 - 2 Cohiba 1966 Edicion Limitada 2011, 6 H.Upmann Royal Robusto, 13 Partagas Serie E No.2, 16 Bolivar Belicosos Finos
2013 - 1 Montecristo No .2, 5 Cohiba Behike BHK 54, 21 Bolivar Royal Corona
2014 - 4 Hoyo de Monterrey Epicure Especial Tubo, 11 Cohiba Esplendido, 15 Montecristo Double Edmundo
2015 - 2 Ramon Allones Specially Selected, 9 Bolivar Belicosos Finos, 14 Trinidad Vigia

As a disclaimer, I too don't take these lists into serious account when appropriating Cuban cigars, although I have sampled some Non-Cuban cigars on these lists and some have been fine. The 2005 Top 25 list contained the most Cuban cigars that year at seven, with 2006 close behind with six. There has been no year list with less than three. The average amount of Cuban cigars in each year's Top 25 list is 4.1 cigars (rounded to one decimal place).

[SCgarman]

Cigar Aficionado Top 25 lists 2004-2015 Cuban Cigar Nominations

2004 - 3 Cohiba Siglo VI, 8 Montecristo No.2, 12 San Cristobal de la Habana El Morro, 15 H. Upmann Magnum 46

2005 - 2 Montecristo Edmundo, 5 Partagas Serie D No.4 Reserva, 14 H.Upmann Magnum 50 Edicion Limitada 2005, 15 Cohiba Siglo II, 17 Montecristo D Edicion Limitada 2005, 19 Bolivar Petit Corona

2006 - 1 Bolivar Royal Corona, 4 Romeo y Julieta Short Churchill, 18 Montecristo Edicion Limitada 2006, 21 Punch Super Selection No.1, 23 Diplomaticos No.2, 25 Montecristo Petit Tubo

2007 - 3 Montecristo No. 2, 6 Cohiba Maduro 5 Secretos, 11 Montecristo Petit Edmundo , 16 Punch Double Corona

2008 - 6 Romeo y Julieta Short Churchill, 7 H.Upmann Sir Winston, 11 Juan Lopez Seleccion No.2, 19 San Cristobal de la Habana La Fuerza, 22 Bolivar Belicosos Finos

2009 - 2 Cohiba Siglo V Tubo, 10 Partagas Serie P No.2 Tubo, 17 Partagas Salomon

2010 - 1 Cohiba Behike BHK 52, 9 H.Upmann No.2, 21 Partagas Lusitania

2011 - 4 Partagas Serie P No .2, 8 Punch Double Corona, 15 Hoyo de Monterrey Double Corona, 21 H.Upmann No.2

2012 - 2 Cohiba 1966 Edicion Limitada 2011, 6 H.Upmann Royal Robusto, 13 Partagas Serie E No.2, 16 Bolivar Belicosos Finos

2013 - 1 Montecristo No .2, 5 Cohiba Behike BHK 54, 21 Bolivar Royal Corona

2014 - 4 Hoyo de Monterrey Epicure Especial Tubo, 11 Cohiba Esplendido, 15 Montecristo Double Edmundo

2015 - 2 Ramon Allones Specially Selected, 9 Bolivar Belicosos Finos, 14 Trinidad Vigia

As a disclaimer, I too don't take these lists into serious account when appropriating Cuban cigars, although I have sampled some Non-Cuban cigars on these lists and some have been fine. The 2005 Top 25 list contained the most Cuban cigars that year at seven, with 2006 close behind with six. There has been no year list with less than three. The average amount of Cuban cigars in each year's Top 25 list is 4.1 cigars (rounded to one decimal place).

How readily available are non Cubans in Oz? And how are they priced?

[JohnS]

How readily available are non Cubans in Oz? And how are they priced?

I would say as readily available as Cuban cigars, although due to taxes (which is currently at $AU663.72 per kilo for tobacco) it's more practical to directly import from overseas, in small quantities, as that is much cheaper!

[MasterShake72]

The ratings are a complete joke and have appeal to the casual American smoker only, the kind of person who smokes more as a lifestyle choice than anything else. The cigars are rated based upon smoking 1 inch of a cigar. How can you hope to really accurately judge a cigar based on the first inch?

On top of that, here in the US the real best NC cigars annually are usually limited editions and single store releases, none of which are ever included in their top 25, and by rule are actually excluded from the top 25. So the list gets comprised of regular release NC stuff and while some cigars on the list are actually good I would never dream of purchasing about 3/4ths of what ends up comprising the list.

[wabashcr]

It really is funny how this CA AMA link has now been posted several times, here and in the other thread, but nobody appears to be really taking notice of it. There are some real eye openers.

In trying to give some factual substance to this annual discussion (beyond supposed aspects of intended NC-bias, of “paid reviewing”, editorial advertising and that stuff) one may just carefully read some of the answers posted there.

Taking e.g. that statement given by Greg Mottola of their actual tasting procedure and then putting it up against one's own personal way of reviewing and assessing the characteristics and personality of a cigar – voilà, you’ve got your answer! Several aspects to pick from that single paragraph alone.

There are other answers that make me wonder how at all a CC could have managed to get onto the list anyway, e.g.:

Q: Also, on the review process; how do you select which cigars do vs which don't get selected for review?

A: Well, as tasting coordinator I visit cigar shops all around NYC and buy cigars at retail for use in the tastings. I assess what’s selling, what’s popular, and I make sure the tastings reflect the general pulse of the marketplace. And that includes a balance of small boutique brands and cigars from larger producers. -DC

So - how come there is CC on that list? Not popular, not selling and neither reflecting the general pulse of the marketplace – and not even been sold in shops in NYC anyway….

or

Q: What is your favorite color?

A: Maduro – Everyone (CigarAficionadoMag)

We learn - there is a uniform preference for maduro across the panel – Now check out the number of generic maduro CC vs. maduro NCs…

And this all doesn't let folks wonder how large the fraction of CCs might actually be making it into the selection for review in the first place?!!

There even doesn't need to be an intended bias in the results at all (and they do blind tastings for the record) - what's not been tested can't make it into the Top 25.

As for CCs in their review process, at one point in the AMA the following exchange took place with Greg Mottola:

Q: What do you guys think about Cubans? How often do you have them and would you say it's out of the normal for you guys to have them? Speaking in a personal use context of course.

A:Since I now live in Mexico, I have daily access to Cuban cigars. Moreover, my primary responsibility for the magazine is to report on Cuba, and all things cigar-related there. In fact, I just came back from a week there, attending the Friends of Partagas meeting, and doing some reporting for upcoming issues of Cigar Aficionado. Between cigars I bring back with me, plus my contacts here in Mexico, I have smoked some really excellent Cuban cigars during 2015. On the flip side, because I have a personal collection of non-Cuban cigars, I have been able to turn on many of my cigar-smoking Mexican friends to excellent Nicaraguan and Dominican cigars. But in general, when I smoke, I smoke Cubans now.--GM

If you follow them regularly, they report quite a bit on Cuba and CCs. Of course on a forum dedicated to CCs, their reporting on CCs will seem shallow. I'm a big soccer fan. For big, national publications, USA Today and Sports Illustrated provide a good amount of soccer coverage. But I would never go to either for my soccer news.

I think the maduro/favorite color remark was a bit of a joke, not indicating they are all prefer maduro cigars. Favorite color in an AMA is not an unusual question, so the cigar people answer with a shade of cigar leaf.

[CanuckSARTech]

You guys might find this interesting. On Reddit, there is a forum for cigars known as "r/cigars" They did an AMA (Ask Me Anything) where the Editors of CA sat in a room and fielded questions from the members. Some questions were kinda hard hitting and they handled them well.

Cigar Aficianado AMA.

Mottola - "Normally, it takes ⅓ to ½ of the cigar to develop its natural flavors. That’s how much we generally smoke. It’s the most practical way to produce as many cigar reviews as we do."

Proof is in the pudding with that comment there, folks.

To only smoke an inch to a third is ludacris, IMO, unless it's right foul and you're chucking it.

[Orion21]

I have been a member here for almost 5 years and was a forum member on CA for a couple years before coming to FoH. I can tell you without a doubt the CA people are passionate and no more crooked than Rob and crew. Their advertisers produce products for the American market, so they are going to review those products and give their opinion. A big "BUT" is that the rest of the world smokes Cuban cigars, and so do a fair share of American cigar smokers, so they must include them. I have no love for most Non-Cuban cigars, aside from Opus and Anejo, but I won't bash CA for supporting Non-Cuban cigars producers. Over the years I have seen CA give PLENTY of love to Cuban cigars in their rating sections, with many 90+ scores. Yes, they have picked some dogs to represent the NC cigar community in the ratings, but even I have had a Brick House or two I loved at the time . . . LOL

[Habana Mike]

An interesting aside is metrics from Cigar Insider:

Top cigars of 2105:
WHERE THE TOP SCORERS ARE MADE

COUNTRY CIGARS RATED 90 POINTS OR HIGHER PERCENT
NICARAGUA 97 40 41.2%
DOM. REP. 108 27 25.0%
CUBA 28 21 75.0%
HONDURAS 43 11 25.6%
U.S.A. 1 1 100.0%

They rated about 10% the number of Cuban cigars as all others yet 75% of the Cubans rated 90 points or higher. 2-3x more than the others.....

[PigFish]

Sorry mates, but I just gotta' say, if how CA rates cigars is important to you then you need to lock yourself in a dark room with a box of cigars, make it two or three boxes.... and start smoking. The more you smoke, the less it will matter!

There are no 'wrong' opinions. There is yours and the other guy's (gals) and if the other guy's is more important to you than your own, reread the paragraph above until you get your head right!

MHO... -the Pig

[Puros Y Vino]

Mottola - "Normally, it takes ⅓ to ½ of the cigar to develop its natural flavors. That’s how much we generally smoke. It’s the most practical way to produce as many cigar reviews as we do."

Proof is in the pudding with that comment there, folks.

To only smoke an inch to a third is ludacris, IMO, unless it's right foul and you're chucking it.

The flip side of their approach was that if the cigar "sucked" in that same measure, then it wasn't worth continuing. A cigar that starts off badly isn't going to necessarily get better. In the AMA the question about whether or not manufacturers spike the first third of the blend to do well in CA reviews was never sufficiently answered as well. And I wouldn't expect them to know really.

[Fugu]

I will repeat, it is absolutely not about bashing CA, not for my part (and I really couldn’t care less). It is remarkable how the proponents of CA in this thread are always filing any honest critique and eval of their publishing work under “bashing”. Becoming kind of a stereotype here.

CA itself makes very clear in this AMA – in a very frank and open way – what they are doing, how they are doing it, and therefore why the results turn out the way they are. Simply accept the facts people and everything is clear. Nothing to complain about – as much, as there is no need for defending them against any supposed unjustified bashing.

[Randolph]

When CA first came out, I bought and tried a whole bunch of their highly rated cigars. It became readily apparent that my taste varies considerably from whoever was doing their tasting. Nowadays I have a few friends whose preferences are much the same as mine, and I'll try a new cigar on their recommendation. Haven't picked up a CA in 10 years.

Completely agree. I've smoked a number of non-Cubans but won't buy them anymore. They never seem to hit the mark that the Cuban tobacco offers in flavour - Cuban tobacco seems to offer an earthiness and aromatic quality that others don't seem to offer. Not that this will always be the case, but the road to perfection is always under construction just as is the development of new fertilisers.