Ken Gargett Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 this is not posted to set off any sort of debate in evolution with those who, for whatever reason, may not accept it (i know precisely how far that will get with rob), but rather because i found it a really interesting article. who would have ever thought falcons more closer related to parrots than eagles and flamingos closer to pigeons than pelicans. i find this stuff utterly fascinating. Sprouting feathers and lost teeth: scientists map the evolution of birds Mass genome sequencing reveals avian family tree – and how imitative birdsong gives birds genetic similarities to humans More than 200 scientists in 20 countries joined forces to create the evolutionary tree, which reveals how birds gained their colourful feathers, lost their teeth, and learned to sing songs. Photograph: Alamy Ian Sample, science editor Friday 12 December 2014 06.16 AEST Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share via Email Share on LinkedIn Share on Google+ Shares382 Comments47 A remarkable international effort to map out the avian tree of life has revealed how birds evolved after the mass extinction that wiped out the dinosaurs into more than 10,000 species alive today. More than 200 scientists in 20 countries joined forces to create the evolutionary tree, which reveals how birds gained their colourful feathers, lost their teeth, and learned to sing songs. The project has thrown up extraordinary similarities between the brain circuits that allow humans to speak and those that give some birds song: a case of common biology being arrived at via different evolutionary routes. Some birds are shown to have unexpectedly close relationships, with falcons more closely related to parrots than eagles or vultures, and flamingoes more closely related to pigeons than pelicans. The map also suggests that the earliest common ancestor of land birds was an apex predator, which gave way to the prehistoric giant terror birds that once roamed the Americas. Facebook Twitter Pinterest expand Some birds are shown to have unexpectedly close relationships, with falcons more closely related to parrots than eagles or vultures, and flamingoes more closely related to pigeons than pelicans. Photograph: Alamy“This has not been done for any other organism before,” Per Ericson, an evolutionary biologist at the Swedish Museum of Natural History in Stockholm, told the journal Science. “It’s mind-blowing.” The scientists began their task by analysing fingernail-sized pieces of frozen flesh taken from 45 bird species, including eagles, woodpeckers, ostriches and parakeets, gathered by museums around the world over the past 30 years. From the thawed-out tissue, they extracted and read the birds’ whole genomes. To these they added the genomes of three previously sequenced species. It took nine supercomputers the equivalent of 400 years of processor time to compare all the genomes and arrange them into a comprehensive family tree. Members of the project, named the Avian Phylogenomics Consortium, published the family tree and their analysis on Thursday in eight main papers in the journal Science, and in more than 20 others in different scientific journals. Facebook Twitter Pinterest expand The loss of so many species in a mass extinction freed up vast ecological niches, giving feathered animals an unprecedented chance to diversify. Photograph: AlamyThe rise of the birds began about 65m years ago. A mass extinction – probably caused by an asteroid collision – wiped out most of the larger-bodied dinosaurs, but left a few feathered creatures. The loss of so many other species freed up vast ecological niches, giving these animals an unprecedented chance to diversify. Comparisons of the birds’ genomes with those of other animals pointed researchers towards a host of genes involved with the emergence of coloured feathers. While feathers may first have emerged for warmth, colourful plumage may have played a part in mating success. Researchers at the University of South Carolina found that waterbirds had the lowest number of genes linked to feather coloration, while domesticated pets and agricultural birds had eight times as many. Further analysis of the genomes revealed that the common ancestor of all living birds lost its teeth more than 100m years ago. Mutations in at least six key genes meant that the enamel coating of teeth failed to form around 116m years ago. Tooth loss probably began at the front of the jaw and moved to the rear as the beak developed more fully. Facebook Twitter Pinterest expand Despite sharing many of the same genes, parrots and songbirds gained the ability to learn and copy sounds independently from hummingbirds. Photograph: Luis Acosta/AFP/Getty Images“Ever since the discovery of the fossil bird Archaeopteryx in 1861, it has been clear that living birds are descended from toothed dinosaurs. However, the history of tooth loss in the ancestry of modern birds has remained elusive for more than 150 years,” said Mark Springer at the University of California, Riverside. Birdsong has evolved more than once. Despite sharing many of the same genes, parrots and songbirds gained the ability to learn and copy sounds independently from hummingbirds. More striking is that the group of 50 or so genes that allow some birds to sing is similar to those that give humans the ability to speak. “This means that vocal learning birds and humans are more similar to each other for these genes in song and speech areas in the brain than other birds and primates are to them,” said Erich Jarvis at Duke University in North Carolina. Facebook Twitter Pinterest expand The scientists began their task by analysing fingernail-sized pieces of frozen flesh taken from 45 bird species, including eagles, woodpeckers, ostriches and parakeets. Photograph: Martin Harvey/Getty Images/Gallo ImagesThe common genes are involved in making fresh connections between brain cells in the motor cortex and those that control muscles used to make sounds. Advertisement Perhaps unsurprisingly, the scientists found differences in the vocal regions of the parrot brain. These birds had an area of brain for producing song that was surrounded by a secondary region, leading to what the researchers called “a song system within a song system”. David Burt at Edinburgh University’s Roslin Institute said the results, the first to be released by the consortium, were only the beginning. “We hope that giving people the tools to explore this wealth of bird gene information in one place will stimulate further research,” he said. “Ultimately, we hope the research will bring important insights to help improve the health and welfare of wild and farmed birds.” How penguins adapted to frigid conditionsPenguin DNA collected for the avian family tree project has cast light on how the flightless birds endure the Antarctic’s cold hostile environment. Researchers led by Cai Li, at the Beijing Genomics Institute, analysed the genomes of Adélie and emperor penguins and found scores of genetic changes that help them adapt to the frigid conditions. Both penguins were found to have a beefed-up gene set for making proteins for feathers, ensuring a densely packed covering of the short, stiff feathers, which keeps heat in and water out. The scientists also spotted a gene, known as DSG1. In humans it causes thick skin on the hands and feet; in the penguins this adaptation, present all over the body, is beneficial. Facebook Twitter Pinterest expand Research suggests emperor penguins have been better able to handle the harsh environment than other penguin species. Photograph: Frans Lanting/Getty Images/Mint ImagesPenguins must withstand the cold and go without food for months on end, making fat storage a crucial factor in survival. The Adélie penguin were seen to have eight genes involved with metabolism of fatty lipids, though the emperor had only three. The birds lost their ability to fly but their wings became supremely adapted to underwater acrobatics. Writing in the journal GigaScience, Li’s team describes 17 genes that have driven the re-shaping of penguins’ forelimbs. Mutations in one of those genes, called EVC2, causes Ellis-van Creveld syndrome, a genetic disorder that causes short-limb dwarfism and short ribs in people. The first penguins evolved about 60m years ago, but the emperors and Adélies have markedly different histories. The Adélie penguin population grew rapidly 150,000 years ago as the climate warmed, but crashed by 40% when a cold and dry glacial period arrived 60,000 years ago. The emperor penguins fared better, their numbers hardly changing, pointing to a better ability to handle the harsh environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted December 14, 2014 Author Share Posted December 14, 2014 whilst we are not on the topic of religion, heard a great quote from dylan moran - "anyone who doesn't believe in god or the devil has never flown ryan air with a hangover". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habana Mike Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 So, are you disparaging Atlanta over Philadelphia here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted December 14, 2014 Author Share Posted December 14, 2014 So, are you disparaging Atlanta over Philadelphia here? as soon as i wrote it, i just knew. and never. philadelphia is my most hated team. other than the cowboys and giants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter1974 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 not touching this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Greetings, it's all hog wash. In ten years the story will be something else. Stephen Hawking is a perfect example of I can't make my mind up. It's all theory and nothing more. No reason to listen or believe any of it. Western people would do well to stop thinking they have all the answers and start looking at the disfunction of them selves. Blessings.......... Thanks !!! sorry, not sure if i follow. are you suggesting evolution is hogwash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Greetings, Theory is just theory. Not speaking of evolution. Theories change like wind. Hawking is a prime example. Ironic the name Hawking and the subject of birds of prey. What I'm saying is except what is and stop trying to explain everything that is. Seek within. Know ones true self nature before projecting theory all over the place. Less conclusion and destruction could aid things. Blessings........... Thanks !!! okay, i suspect i'm none the wiser, but there are theories and there is science. with respect, i have no idea what knowing one's true self nature has to do with this? i'm certainly not opposed to anyone/everyone knowing thyself but i'm lost as to what it has to do with this. similarly, what on earth is wrong with trying to understand/explain the world, the history of the planet etc etc? had humans not set off on that path, we'd still be living in caves, tossing spears at dinner. as i said when i posted, i did so because i found it fascinating and thought that some other members might also. i would argue that an article on a specific aspect of evolution (i would also suggest that the vast majority of thinking people on the planet would see evolution as science, rather theory) is hardly 'projecting theory all over the place'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolio Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Very interesting article Ken. Interesting they've identified a mutated common EVC2 gene in both penguins and the Qantas CEO Allan Joyce! This stuff is not theory. It's knowledge, based on observations and studies leading to empirical evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Greetings, I'm not disputing evolving things. It's the ever changing findings that are questioned. The Hawking reference I thought made that kind of clear. Today's truth is tomorrow's untruth. It's all quantum and everything is connected. Maybe consider not assuming someone is disputing evolving because of ones own defenses of trying to defend there outlook on existence. What I'm relaying is western science keeps projecting and finding very little of anything that doesn't change it's story in very little time. I would rather have unlimited consideration and that's something class driven eurocentric mentality had very little of. Know it alls that know little because they are really frightened. I have noticed agnostic , atheist or whatever else seem to need to be very defensive of things they want to explain. It's no different than religion. When people become aware of the oneness of all things is when real breakthrough will happen. Not trying to fragment every thing. Thats enough of me attempting to enlightened cigar neanderthals. Cigar people I have found are usually trying to avoid being conscious aware beings and put their heads deep in the sand and abuse them selves with foods , tobacco, alcohol and pharmaceuticals. If this offends anyone maybe try a mirror some time. You wanted to talk some truth !!! Blessings...... Thanks !!! i have no issue at all with contrary views, if respectfully put forward and assuming some reasonable basis, whether i agree with it or not, but - "enough of me attempting to enlightened cigar neanderthals. Cigar people I have found are usually trying to avoid being conscious aware beings and put their heads deep in the sand and abuse them selves with foods , tobacco, alcohol and pharmaceuticals. If this offends anyone maybe try a mirror some time." cigar neanderthals? what on earth are you doing on this site if that is how you feel about us? and i do find it rather offensive. as i suspect many will. touch of arrogance to dismiss us all in that way? interesting you attack me as defensive (no idea why) yet it seems your only argument is that i am defensive and therefore must be wrong? i really am not trying to be obtuse but i do not follow. i have no doubt that what we know of evolution will be refined and amended over time but to completely dismiss it, as you seem to do, is something, even if i burrow through my navel to find my oneness, i fail to understand. "western science"? interesting. i always thought that there was science and what ever is the opposite of science. i think trying to redefine science as 'western' and otherwise makes absolutely no sense at all. as for the agnostic/religion comments, probably better i avoid expressing my thoughts there. that said, you describe agnostics, athiests and those following a religion as defensive. if i read you correctly, that pretty much covers the entire world, i would have thought. so everyone, except possibly you, is defensive? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Presidente Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I think I can understand the line of thought by Psi. Take food groups. Almost everything over the past 20 years has been "in" or "out" of the must eat list. All backed by "Nutritionists"...and that includes government agencies who know better than us. Fruit...good....then questionable (high sugar content) now good again....but preferable if you eat the expensive berries. . Meat...great...then bad...then essential....but now who knows. Olive oil....great!....oh oh..Bad.....now good again. As for the world of evolution I still subscribe to the Simpsons episode where we (universe) are but a 14 year old Aliens ant farm that he got tired of and put in the cupboard next to his Judo suit and guitar There is no way we evolved from monkeys and evolution decrees progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 I think I can understand the line of thought by Psi. Take food groups. Almost everything over the past 20 years has been "in" or "out" of the must eat list. All backed by "Nutritionists"...and that includes government agencies who know better than us. Fruit...good....then questionable (high sugar content) now good again....but preferable if you eat the expensive berries. . Meat...great...then bad...then essential....but now who knows. Olive oil....great!....oh oh..Bad.....now good again. As for the world of evolution I still subscribe to the Simpsons episode where we (universe) are but a 14 year old Aliens ant farm that he got tired of and put in the cupboard next to his Judo suit and guitar There is no way we evolved from monkeys and evolution decrees progress no argument - from us cigar neanderthals - that many things do change but that is an entirely different issue from evolution. and with the utmost respect, you discussing evolution, given the many hours we have canvassed the subject on the balcony, is the thinnest of thin ice. ps - i can receive but not send emails till i get home but if you re up for a video this week, wed arvo best but let me know. otherwise, next week should be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaDisco Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 There is no way we evolved from monkeys and evolution decrees progress Ahem . . . only some of us evolved from monkeys . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 this is not posted to set off any sort of debate in evolution with those who, for whatever reason, may not accept it (i know precisely how far that will get with rob), but rather because i found it a really interesting article. who would have ever thought falcons more closer related to parrots than eagles and flamingos closer to pigeons than pelicans. i find this stuff utterly fascinating. Sprouting feathers and lost teeth: scientists map the evolution of birds Mass genome sequencing reveals avian family tree and how imitative birdsong gives birds genetic similarities to humans More than 200 scientists in 20 countries joined forces to create the evolutionary tree, which reveals how birds gained their colourful feathers, lost their teeth, and learned to sing songs. Photograph: Alamy Ian Sample, science editor Friday 12 December 2014 06.16 AEST Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share via Email Share on LinkedIn Share on Google+ Shares 382 Comments47 A remarkable international effort to map out the avian tree of life has revealed how birds evolved after the mass extinction that wiped out the dinosaurs into more than 10,000 species alive today. More than 200 scientists in 20 countries joined forces to create the evolutionary tree, which reveals how birds gained their colourful feathers, lost their teeth, and learned to sing songs. The project has thrown up extraordinary similarities between the brain circuits that allow humans to speak and those that give some birds song: a case of common biology being arrived at via different evolutionary routes. Some birds are shown to have unexpectedly close relationships, with falcons more closely related to parrots than eagles or vultures, and flamingoes more closely related to pigeons than pelicans. The map also suggests that the earliest common ancestor of land birds was an apex predator, which gave way to the prehistoric giant terror birds that once roamed the Americas. Facebook Twitter Pinterest expand Some birds are shown to have unexpectedly close relationships, with falcons more closely related to parrots than eagles or vultures, and flamingoes more closely related to pigeons than pelicans. Photograph: Alamy This has not been done for any other organism before, Per Ericson, an evolutionary biologist at the Swedish Museum of Natural History in Stockholm, told the journal Science. Its mind-blowing. The scientists began their task by analysing fingernail-sized pieces of frozen flesh taken from 45 bird species, including eagles, woodpeckers, ostriches and parakeets, gathered by museums around the world over the past 30 years. From the thawed-out tissue, they extracted and read the birds whole genomes. To these they added the genomes of three previously sequenced species. It took nine supercomputers the equivalent of 400 years of processor time to compare all the genomes and arrange them into a comprehensive family tree. Members of the project, named the Avian Phylogenomics Consortium, published the family tree and their analysis on Thursday in eight main papers in the journal Science, and in more than 20 others in different scientific journals. Facebook Twitter Pinterest expand The loss of so many species in a mass extinction freed up vast ecological niches, giving feathered animals an unprecedented chance to diversify. Photograph: Alamy The rise of the birds began about 65m years ago. A mass extinction probably caused by an asteroid collision wiped out most of the larger-bodied dinosaurs, but left a few feathered creatures. The loss of so many other species freed up vast ecological niches, giving these animals an unprecedented chance to diversify. Comparisons of the birds genomes with those of other animals pointed researchers towards a host of genes involved with the emergence of coloured feathers. While feathers may first have emerged for warmth, colourful plumage may have played a part in mating success. Researchers at the University of South Carolina found that waterbirds had the lowest number of genes linked to feather coloration, while domesticated pets and agricultural birds had eight times as many. Further analysis of the genomes revealed that the common ancestor of all living birds lost its teeth more than 100m years ago. Mutations in at least six key genes meant that the enamel coating of teeth failed to form around 116m years ago. Tooth loss probably began at the front of the jaw and moved to the rear as the beak developed more fully. Facebook Twitter Pinterest expand Despite sharing many of the same genes, parrots and songbirds gained the ability to learn and copy sounds independently from hummingbirds. Photograph: Luis Acosta/AFP/Getty Images Ever since the discovery of the fossil bird Archaeopteryx in 1861, it has been clear that living birds are descended from toothed dinosaurs. However, the history of tooth loss in the ancestry of modern birds has remained elusive for more than 150 years, said Mark Springer at the University of California, Riverside. Birdsong has evolved more than once. Despite sharing many of the same genes, parrots and songbirds gained the ability to learn and copy sounds independently from hummingbirds. More striking is that the group of 50 or so genes that allow some birds to sing is similar to those that give humans the ability to speak. This means that vocal learning birds and humans are more similar to each other for these genes in song and speech areas in the brain than other birds and primates are to them, said Erich Jarvis at Duke University in North Carolina. Facebook Twitter Pinterest expand The scientists began their task by analysing fingernail-sized pieces of frozen flesh taken from 45 bird species, including eagles, woodpeckers, ostriches and parakeets. Photograph: Martin Harvey/Getty Images/Gallo Images The common genes are involved in making fresh connections between brain cells in the motor cortex and those that control muscles used to make sounds. AdvertisementPerhaps unsurprisingly, the scientists found differences in the vocal regions of the parrot brain. These birds had an area of brain for producing song that was surrounded by a secondary region, leading to what the researchers called a song system within a song system.David Burt at Edinburgh Universitys Roslin Institute said the results, the first to be released by the consortium, were only the beginning. We hope that giving people the tools to explore this wealth of bird gene information in one place will stimulate further research, he said. Ultimately, we hope the research will bring important insights to help improve the health and welfare of wild and farmed birds. How penguins adapted to frigid conditions Penguin DNA collected for the avian family tree project has cast light on how the flightless birds endure the Antarctics cold hostile environment. Researchers led by Cai Li, at the Beijing Genomics Institute, analysed the genomes of Adélie and emperor penguins and found scores of genetic changes that help them adapt to the frigid conditions. Both penguins were found to have a beefed-up gene set for making proteins for feathers, ensuring a densely packed covering of the short, stiff feathers, which keeps heat in and water out. The scientists also spotted a gene, known as DSG1. In humans it causes thick skin on the hands and feet; in the penguins this adaptation, present all over the body, is beneficial. Facebook Twitter Pinterest expand Research suggests emperor penguins have been better able to handle the harsh environment than other penguin species. Photograph: Frans Lanting/Getty Images/Mint Images Penguins must withstand the cold and go without food for months on end, making fat storage a crucial factor in survival. The Adélie penguin were seen to have eight genes involved with metabolism of fatty lipids, though the emperor had only three. The birds lost their ability to fly but their wings became supremely adapted to underwater acrobatics. Writing in the journal GigaScience, Lis team describes 17 genes that have driven the re-shaping of penguins forelimbs. Mutations in one of those genes, called EVC2, causes Ellis-van Creveld syndrome, a genetic disorder that causes short-limb dwarfism and short ribs in people. The first penguins evolved about 60m years ago, but the emperors and Adélies have markedly different histories. The Adélie penguin population grew rapidly 150,000 years ago as the climate warmed, but crashed by 40% when a cold and dry glacial period arrived 60,000 years ago. The emperor penguins fared better, their numbers hardly changing, pointing to a better ability to handle the harsh environment. Just because 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Greetings, I'm not disputing evolving things. It's the ever changing findings that are questioned. The Hawking reference I thought made that kind of clear. Today's truth is tomorrow's untruth. It's all quantum and everything is connected. Maybe consider not assuming someone is disputing evolving because of ones own defenses of trying to defend there outlook on existence. What I'm relaying is western science keeps projecting and finding very little of anything that doesn't change it's story in very little time. I would rather have unlimited consideration and that's something class driven eurocentric mentality had very little of. Know it alls that know little because they are really frightened. I have noticed agnostic , atheist or whatever else seem to need to be very defensive of things they want to explain. It's no different than religion. When people become aware of the oneness of all things is when real breakthrough will happen. Not trying to fragment every thing. Thats enough of me attempting to enlightened cigar neanderthals. Cigar people I have found are usually trying to avoid being conscious aware beings and put their heads deep in the sand and abuse them selves with foods , tobacco, alcohol and pharmaceuticals. If this offends anyone maybe try a mirror some time. You wanted to talk some truth !!! Blessings...... Thanks !!!Ahem... Hi there!While you seem to put a lot on the table, a more careful read of your posts highlight the level of pseudoscience you are using as arguments. In science, as surprising as it may sound, nothing is definitive. A series of working hypothesis are available and modified as the world reveals more of its inner workings. Anything claimed to be understood is always up to be debated and modified if deemed incorrect. Obviously, a concept devoid of arrogance can fail to be grasped by some... Blessings and greetings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Festa Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 http://youtu.be/9Cd36WJ79z4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeypots Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 You guys need to study up a bit on the definition of theory and to a lessor extent science. Take gravity for instance. None will dismiss the theory of gravity out of hand yet when forced to explain exactly why the ball falls to the ground or the planets stay in orbit they are speechless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 You guys need to study up a bit on the definition of theory and to a lessor extent science. Take gravity for instance. None will dismiss the theory of gravity out of hand yet when forced to explain exactly why the ball falls to the ground or the planets stay in orbit they are speechless. Well, nobody knows exactly why there is anything and why matter arranges itself the way it does other than because of its natural characteristics. At some point, we can't explain further than what is observable or deducible. Some people jump in and assume the lack of evidence or understanding is a proof in itself of the existence of God... Science is but a mindset, an intellectual protocol of extracting understanding from observations. To claim science is imperfect is merely realizing humans are imperfect. The biggest problem in this thread is not the lack of understanding of a few words or concepts but the need of a few to shelter their insecurities behind a pissing contest. "Thats enough of me attempting to enlightened cigar neanderthals. Cigar people I have found are usually trying to avoid being conscious aware beings and put their heads deep in the sand and abuse them selves with foods , tobacco, alcohol and pharmaceuticals" This, in my uneducated opinion, is a sure sign of someone in need of lots and lots of love 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaDisco Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Gosh, I don't know where to start with this one! Ken's cool article about mapping the relationships between over 200 species of birds? Or the Troll driven fractures after that that have managed to hijack this thread in about a zillion different directions at once! Or maybe I should just go all Cigar Neanderthal and light up a Sir Winston? Yeah . . . that's the ticket! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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