Fidels 88th Birthday .......

[stigmata]

Every system is different Rob.

Its not up to us to decide whats wrong and whats right in another society.

At the end of the day ... people get creative in different environments.

Man has always done that...

But the country WAS pillaged

We cant lose sight of the historical sequence of events that led to Castro and pretend they didnt happen.

We also cant lose sight of the enormous Miami Cuban lobby that has been pressing to squash Castro since the revolution.

Of course hes going to be defensive...

Even Vietnam and China have come in from the Cold... why?

Because we left them alone and its in everybodys interest they did.

Gravity always takes care of everything its the nature of universality.

What is highly laughable is to pretend we live in a good place and theyre in an evil place.

Our leaders are good... theirs are evil.

Thought people thought aabout things more deeply than that

One thing i thank Castro for is there is a country with no Big Macs/Starbucks and crappy culture that still retains some grass roots community.

I think thats valuable....

[stigmata]

I as talking about the USA Rob... the country that has sanctioned Cuba.. and planned the Bay of Pigs and attempted numerous assassination attempts.

You see for every action there is a reaction.

Cuba is what it is because of what happened before..... Thats the historical context.

Anyway i wont continue with this because i think we are breaking one of the Forums rules.

[El Presidente]

Every system is different Rob.

Its not up to us to decide whats wrong and whats right in another society.

At the end of the day ... people get creative in different environments.

Man has always done that...

But the country WAS pillaged

We cant lose sight of the historical sequence of events that led to Castro and pretend they didnt happen.

We also cant lose sight of the enormous Miami Cuban lobby that has been pressing to squash Castro since the revolution.

Of course hes going to be defensive...

Even Vietnam and China have come in from the Cold... why?

Because we left them alone and its in everybodys interest they did.

Gravity always takes care of everything its the nature of universality.

What is highly laughable is to pretend we live in a good place and theyre in an evil place.

Our leaders are good... theirs are evil.

Thought people thought aabout things more deeply than that

One thing i thank Castro for is there is a country with no Big Macs/Starbucks and crappy culture that still retains some grass roots community.

I think thats valuable....

We agree to disagree.

I love visiting China. I hate its politics. Same Cuba. I do business with both. I am a hypocrite no doubt.

Yet Cuban politics gets under my craw. You see, you can get ahead in china (as an individual) but not cuba.

It is the lack of opportunity for those with nouse that pisses me off.

That is not a "System" that is a crime.

[El Presidente]

And before I go to bed.

I don't blame the USA. They were but a patsy to the overall scheme. Cuba would not be celebrating 50 years of Castro without enemies it could lazily blame.

[CaptainQuintero]

It depends how the discussion goes, if we're simply saying Castro has done evil things or communism enables evil then its either an agree or disagree situation. If the discussion is 'where are Castro's deeds on the scale of evil' then comparisons with every country are going to be made and people are going to disagree on where they should be placed and who else goes where.

It's also hard to place anyone or any government on the scale without appearing as a hypocrite because most of us here come from nations with pretty evil pasts and presents.

An example:

In the 2003 war in Iraq, coalition forces used tens of thousands of tons of depleted uranium tipped ammunition. Mostly in the cities of Najaf and Fallujah. Since the war in those cities 50% of all children born or conceived during that time have been born with massive heart defects. 10,000 children have been born with horrendous and crippling physical deformities. (Google it if interested, warning Google image search may make anyone question their beliefs)

Everyone with half a brain will agree that is a sickening crime against humanity, not a single person has been (or will be) held accountable for this.

A discussion would contain agreements but also some people would come out in defense of the UK and US out of patriotism and say something like "Russia uses the same ammunition" or "What about Chinese state executions", "Is this any different to 35000 elephants being killed in Africa every year for tusks?" Due to the nature of an international forum there will be opinions from every spectrum. No one will convince anyone else to change their opinion.

Is the above example better, the same or worse on the scale of evil compared to Castros deeds, do you compare it against all the actions of Castro's reign or just from the past 10 years etc?

The only way is to discuss it from a personal view on wether you believe it is evil or not, the second we try to place someone or something on any type of scale then comparisons (Therefore disagreement) will happen and people will get upset for any number of reasons.

Not saying those discussions shouldn't take place, just saying that anything beyond short comments will cause it to start, it's nothing to get offended over and I don't think anyone is/was/will be making comments against any nations people, just the leadership. Literally there isn't a country represented here that hasn't committed horrible, evil actions that has caused the suffering and death of thousands to millions of people af some point in it's history.

Sometimes unless a discussion is going to never end we just have to put on our human hat and say yep that's evil, I wish we could start living less like uncivilised monsters one day soon because making a list of evil actions by nations is going to be pretty near endless and will end up in a very depressing place.

life is too short.

So yes Happy Birthday Fidel, you had the right idea, your heart was probably in the right place. You wouldn't have done the good or bad things if the US government had been less paranoid, but the US would have been less paranoid if Stalin had been less imperialistic, but without Stalin Europe would be a Nazi state. We were supposedly fighting for freedom in that circumstance but really Britain was fighting to preserve its essential slave empire, the USSR was a nation of slaves and the US didn't let black people marry, vote or be trusted beyond driving trucks in WW2. Then again if Spain and Portugal hadn't been conquering South America and busy wiping out millions of natives the British would probably never have started an empire that kept the rest of Europe fenced into small areas making them leave the continent and force Africa, China etc into humiliating treaties then asset strip then of natural resources. Then again the Kings and Queens of Europe treated all their people so bad that revolutions had to happen so Napoleon rising is on their shoulders. He probably was inspired by Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Empire who was inspired by an insane Vatican calling on Holy War because they used the story of a really kind dude who lived a thousand years prior to justify their own reign of terror and suppression. Maybe the Romans shouldn't have got overzealous and listened to the Jews who wanted that nice guy dead and left him alone to finish what he was doing. That might have ended up nice. If the Germans hadn't been jealous of the Romans they might not have been the tipping point for the Romans to leave a massive vacume when their empire fell. The were probably only trying to copy Alexander the Great, his Mother probably coddled him, maybe if he had left a better will the Library at Alexandria would still be here, there might have been a book in there which told us what plume was, or maybe just how to live peacefully.

[...]

I wonder what Cuba would look like if the revolution never took place. Would it look like the Bahamas or Haiti? There are opportunities in Haiti... Because of Cuba's proximity to the US, it seems its fate was sealed either way

[Heawns]

I was going to say, if we are to altogether judge western democracies, we ought to look at foreign policy and the attitudes of the so-called egalitarian human-rights loving USA and its minion states. 100,000 dead Iraqi's ≠ human rights preserved

(And use higher standards than Cuba, with regards to economics)

Now Communist economic theory, or their labor theories of value, was invented before and during the industrial revolution. Major concepts were not discovered, they simply used "a value of a good is determined by the work that goes in to it". Which made sense in the middle-ages, but leads to terrible post-industrial policy.

I don't believe for a second that Cuba is what it is, economically and primarily, because of white oppressors. Now maybe that was a required factor to bring a dumb-ass like Castro to power, but people ought to take some responsibility for what they themselves let happen.

I mean there are actually dictators who produce good economic policy; Augusto Pinochet. Or for that matter the oligarchies in Vietnam and China right now, they seem to be improving a ton, at least in that respect.

[CUBANO]

@ stigmata,

How can you say that Cuba would have been another Haiti if Castro wouldn't have taking power. As a Cuban I can tell you that Cuba had the best standard of living of any country in Latin America and the Caribbean before Castro.

If Castro is so great why is it that most Cubans want to leave Cuba?

Most of my relatives are still living in Cuba, and yes they make $20 CUC a month, and retired people make between $4-6. They CAN'T travel outside of the country, go to certain places in Cuba, and the freedoms that you and I have that we take for granted.

If you really believe that Castro is so great. Why don't you move to Cuba and live among the average Cuban for $20 CUC a month? You see I lived in that system, and I have first hand experience how deplorable it is. Democracy is NOT perfect, but for now is the best we have in the world.

So when you go on here and say how great Castro is, also have the respect to accept the other view of Ray, myself and others, and have a little compassion for what the Cuban people live every day. Because life in Cuba is NOT Cuban cigars and Rum (peaches and cream).

Adios Amigo.

[...]

What CaptainQuintero said.

[...]

Cubano, you have to remember Haiti was considered the Pearl of the Antilles back in the 60'. Who would have thought things were going to go the way it did?

[CUBANO]

@CQ,

OMG! It was not only Stalin that liberated Europe. The US had a BIG hand in that too. After the war what happened to the countries that where annexed to the Soviet Union?

[CUBANO]

Cubano, you have to remember Haiti was considered the Pearl of the Antilles back in the 60'. Who would have thought things were going to go the way it did?

Yes amigo, but how can he say that Cuba would be another Haiti if it wasn't for Castro. All of that is speculation. Also Haiti was called that because of its natural beauty. I don't think it was called that because of their economy and/or wealth.

[CaptainQuintero]

@CQ,

OMG! It was not only Stalin that liberated Europe. The US had a BIG hand in that too. After the war what happened to the countries that where annexed to the Soviet Union?

I think you missed the jist of the post.

But yes it wasn't just the USSR, without every country involved it would have been different. But without the USSR the war would have been over before Roosevelt even decided to enter the war. The UK would have fallen if Hitler hadn't started Operation Barbarossa. It would have fallen before that if the Luftwaffer had targetted industry instead of airfields. The vast majority of fighting was done on the Eastern Front, that's where the war was won and lost.

[...]

Yes amigo, but how can he say that Cuba would be another Haiti if it wasn't for Castro. All of that is speculation. Also Haiti was called that because of its natural beauty. I don't think it was called that because of their economy and/or wealth.

Precisely my point, I'm glad you see things the same way I do. Speculations, however, are what they are indifferent of one's opinion

[cigcars]

*Since we're all still "free-for-all-ing" here: earlier Pigfish (Ray) brought up Josef Stalin and his statements/theories in rebuttal to my prior statements. Look - even if I WERE pro-Commie or even a down right Communist (which I'm not - I just don't get emotional about it like some people), JOSEF STALIN is NOT the Poster Guy I would look to for inspiration. During WW II when Adolph and his Funyuns were at work the U.S.A had 53,000 killed AND wounded during this conflict. Killed AND wounded. The wounded (some of them) do get well. Russia had TWENTY MILLION - DEAD fighting the "Huns". They suffered frightful horrors of Hell that would have made the Devil himself go "D-A-A-N-N-G!!!" at what was done to them. But they fought on, every one of them; young, old, single-digit years, pretty women using deadly under cover kill tactics against sex thirsty "Huns", they fought - EVERYONE of them to a man, and THEY drove the Nazi Invader OUT of Eastern Europe. After suffering every kind of death and torture even the very young didn't escape with fire, dagger, chemical, you name it, they came home bringing victory - and were thanked by Josef Stalin by being accused and pronounced "guilty" of treason/collaborating with the enemy, etc., and were sentenced (many of them) to twenty years in the Russian Gulag...in Siberia...where the temperature routinely gets to 40 to 60 degrees BELOW ZERO. In short, they got F#%KED. And of course, this was so he could have a cheap labor force.

Cubano, HOW can you claim that the Cubans had a "best standard of living" before Fidel??? Even if you compare today's Cuba to yesteryear's it was only those VERY, VERY FEW who had a "best standard of living" thanks to the graft, corruption, MAFIA-related criminal activities, and some being among, again, the very very few who benefited from American business interests. The REST of the BULK of the population lived in brutalizing poverty. There is no such thing as a perfect human leader, but you CAN'T fault somebody who's seen to it that the medical and educational system in his country is on par with the best in the rest of the world. Just look at most Cubans there on the street. Do they look like they're starving or underfed? No. They have food and provisions provided, yeah it may not be LOTS or "pheasant under glass" but they do have most of their "needs" handled. I'm NOT saying therefore be thankful for one's crumbs, I'm just pointing out some of the differences in dire straits and reasonable survival mode that are being overlooked here. I know opportunities are kept very low there. But I'm not one to criticize to an "N-th" degree the methods that one or some may HAVE to resort to in order to stay alive, themselves.

Like our own Beloved El-Presidente` has said! "We have to agree to disagree". And I'm very very glad to see that we can keep our friendly banter to just that - and on respectful differences in opinion!

[Maplepie]

Rob: can you give out another Partagas GR again? Please?

Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.

[MontrealRon]

To speak of Cubans earning 20 CUC / month is not an accurate reflection of their reality.

Cubans are paid in CUP (national pesos), not CUC (convertible pesos),

generally around 550-600 pesos / month.

Since Cuba is not within the international exchange system, their exchange rates are arbitrary,

and have validity only internally.

The CUC is used only for transactions involving foreigners or for goods that are imported and paid for in foreign currency.

A more clearly defined question would be "How do Cubans live on what they earn?"

Better than some, worse than others, I would say.

We must take into account that Cubans pay neither rent nor mortgage;

that medical care is free (though many things are in short supply);

that everyone receives some basic necessities every month at virtually no cost;

and that limited quantities of other foodstuffs are heavily subsidized;

that all education from day care to University is free,

and that school uniforms, and whatever school supplies are available, are free;

that students are fed and housed at no cost.

Public transportation is subsidized, and many workplaces have subsidized cafeterias.

It is true that there is never enough for comfort, but there is always enough for survival.

Cuba is not a rich country, and never was.

It has no colonies to exploit.

[stigmata]

@ stigmata,

How can you say that Cuba would have been another Haiti if Castro wouldn't have taking power. As a Cuban I can tell you that Cuba had the best standard of living of any country in Latin America and the Caribbean before Castro.

If Castro is so great why is it that most Cubans want to leave Cuba?

Most of my relatives are still living in Cuba, and yes they make $20 CUC a month, and retired people make between $4-6. They CAN'T travel outside of the country, go to certain places in Cuba, and the freedoms that you and I have that we take for granted.

If you really believe that Castro is so great. Why don't you move to Cuba and live among the average Cuban for $20 CUC a month? You see I lived in that system, and I have first hand experience how deplorable it is. Democracy is NOT perfect, but for now is the best we have in the world.

So when you go on here and say how great Castro is, also have the respect to accept the other view of Ray, myself and others, and have a little compassion for what the Cuban people live every day. Because life in Cuba is NOT Cuban cigars and Rum (peaches and cream).

Adios Amigo.

I dont wish to continue but you directed this ti me so ill reply.

Simply , you might be in Miami etc because your relatives moved out.

You may be of Cuban extract .

You may have lost your sugar plantation/ coffee plantation / rum distillery/ hotel.. or you might be a relative of Batista or his cronies(he must have had quite a few and their descendents all living in Miami today).

Thats not the point.

Your set of circumstances may have been different to most Cubans pre revolution,

Many were murdered most feared the regime mmore than they fear Castro.. and the gravity of 1960 > to where we are today suggests in my opinion TO THE AVERAGE cuban.. things would have got worse not better. Thats not to say some lives would have become better...

If you spent some time studying what led to Castro in the first place ... (these things dont get conjured up and gaining the support of a nation for no reason) You might be less blinded about where Cuba would have been today....

Yes some would be doing very nicely ... but i doubt that Cubas "trickle down economics would have made the island rich with its inhabitants)

Second , about telling me i should go to live in Cuba if i love it so much is errrrrrrrrr.. i actuallly dont even know how to put it nicely for you....

But its not one of the most savvy arguments i have ever heard ....

[CUBANO]

I dont wish to continue but you directed this ti me so ill reply.

Simply , you might be in Miami etc because your relatives moved out.

You may be of Cuban extract .

You may have lost your sugar plantation/ coffee plantation / rum distillery/ hotel.. or you might be a relative of Batista or his cronies(he must have had quite a few and their descendents all living in Miami today).

Thats not the point.

Your set of circumstances may have been different to most Cubans pre revolution,

Many were murdered most feared the regime mmore than they fear Castro.. and the gravity of 1960 > to where we are today suggests in my opinion TO THE AVERAGE cuban.. things would have got worse not better. Thats not to say some lives would have become better...

If you spent some time studying what led to Castro in the first place ... (these things dont get conjured up and gaining the support of a nation for no reason) You might be less blinded about where Cuba would have been today....

Yes some would be doing very nicely ... but i doubt that Cubas "trickle down economics would have made the island rich with its inhabitants)

Second , about telling me i should go to live in Cuba if i love it so much is errrrrrrrrr.. i actuallly dont even know how to put it nicely for you....

But its not one of the most savvy arguments i have ever heard ....

This is sooo Funny!

No, I don't live in Miami, and No we weren't rich by any means, we were middle class, and if your read my previous posts on how my father had to work forced labor in the sugar cane fields for 4.5 years to be able to allowed to leave Cuba, and how we were only allowed to leave with the clothes on our back you can understand why I'm not sympathetic with what you write. I lived my friend , you didn't.

Most of my relatives are still living in Cuba, and I know first hand of what they go thru to survive on a daily basis.

I don't know you, so there is nothing malicious towards you or the others that support Castro so much, even though your comments were NOT very nice either. I take it as a conversation of different opinions and that it. Hell, Ray doesn't want to post here anymore.

@Ron,

Yes Cubans do get paid in CUP, but when you do the conversion that's what it comes out to be. Not all Cubans own their house, some of my relatives rent from the Govt. and all Cubans have to pay for utilities. They cannot go to shop in the stores with CUP, they need CUCs. The only place where they can do that is at certain stores where they buy according to what they can get based on their ration card.

The way we survive in Cuba, is by scams, black market, and relatives abroad sending money and bringing BIG duffle bags full of clothes, medicine, and basic necessities. Next time you go to Cuba go to Terminal 2 at Jose Marti airport and you will see this.

Lets say I work delivering fruits and vegetables. I would steal a few fruits and vegetables, and some gasoline from the truck and trade that in the black market for what I need.

When a foreigner purchases something, I would give them the change in CUP instead of CUC. That is just a couple of examples.

Again, I'm not offending I'm just stating what the real Cuba is. I have never been one to support dictators. The only king ,ruler, tyrant, and all around nice guy that I support 100% is- Rob Ayala. LOL

Adios Amigos

[...]

What do you guys say? I think this thread has done full circle. I suggest we move on to the next banter prone issue...

[mk05]

I'm having a great time hearing different perspectives on the subject, whether it is of academic, actual experience, or from a visitor's standpoint.

[stigmata]

well im not continuing.

*though i could.

except to reiterate

happy 88th to fidel... hope he makes it to 100....however doubtful that is..

[Habana Mike]

well im not continuing.

*though i could.

except to reiterate

happy 88th to fidel... hope he makes it to 100....however doubtful that is..

Well, Energizer bunny and all that......

[PigFish]

… see y'all back here at 89! -LOL

-the Capitalist Pig!

[CUBANO]

see y'all back here at 89! -LOL

-the Capitalist Pig!

Looking forward to it. LOL