Fuzz Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Think of 100,000,000 dead Chinese… Starved to death, in a test of collective farming. Besides brushing the issue aside, what does the communist sycophant say to that??? Ooops! No, a Chinese communist would say, "Give us a few weeks and we'll shore up the numbers."
stigmata Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 i think the Philippines.. Haiti etc cant be a Utopia.. non communist nations and traditionally under the umbrella of USA etc Chile / Argentina... could even throw Cambodias Pol Pot in there.... Mexico not a failed state... the Caribbean minus the tax haven nations...etc etc etc. All beacons of what Cuba could have been.... Good on ya.... lol
PigFish Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 The US borders which countries exactly? This is trick question. Last I heard Canadians were not sending their kids thousands of perilous miles, some raped, molested, murdered or starved to death while on the journey to the US, to escape all that prosperity! Please, tell me about those highly successful, prosperous socialist countries once more…! You left Venezuela out, why? One of Castro's best friends was from there. Tell me how safe they are, the opportunities that the average guy has to move from poor to prosperous. Okay, okay… drug lords, assassins and MS-13 members are excluded from the question. Oh, I have to take out corrupt officials and cop killers too! …kidnappers, afterthought, senior moment. Can't count the kidnappers! Yeah mate, everything is just peachy south of the border, you got me on that one! -the Pig 1
Pedro2486 Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 I did want to weigh in on this, I then realised I'm completely out of my depth as a student of history and will just keep my mouth shut I would like to commend everyone on doing what I have not seen on any other forum EVER: demonstrate an ability to have a discussion/debate (however spirited) without resorting to flaming and personal attacks. I regard you all as the finest ladies and gentlemen on the interwebs. Cheers 1
stigmata Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 hard to understand what youre on about piggy "castro alligned himself to russia" you mean the soviet union? and secondly.. am i right as i begin to attempt to comprehend what youre saying ... that indded what youre saying is cuba would have been great like haiti if it wasnt communist?... or a whole bunch of otther nations that didnt go the communist route ? your logic is very hard to follow... what exactly are you attempting to prove ?
mk05 Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Looking forward to one-off Cohiba humidors numbered and presented as gifts, filled with nonexistent Behikes and Robusto Extras to commemorate 88th birthday of Fidel. There's one for Vegas, it's only fair. I mean, if it were Tatuaje, the humidor would have a secret compartment filled with a vile containing Pete's toenail, each signed with blood and also numbered, so that you could collect all 10.
PigFish Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 hard to understand what youre on about piggy "castro alligned himself to russia" you mean the soviet union? and secondly.. am i right as i begin to attempt to comprehend what youre saying ... that indded what youre saying is cuba would have been great like haiti if it wasnt communist?... or a whole bunch of otther nations that didnt go the communist route ? your logic is very hard to follow... what exactly are you attempting to prove ? … apparently not with the numbers of people who have read my writing and comprehended it enough to acknowledge it in a positive sense or even respond to it negatively. A reaction, both good and even perhaps bad, indicates that I am communicating with someone. Even an incident, which could have turned into a nasty scene was handled maturely by the members involved. I believe I can call that communication, perhaps even understanding. I can respect alternative views, or at least the right to posses and articulate them. I cannot communicate with those that are either buried in ideology or self consumed with other motivations. If you are such a person, then we cannot communicate. I like to share ideas and will even take on a debate, but frankly I will not continue to beat my head against a wall. And while I may be transiently amused by some people, I don't think it is right to put them in a poor light or take advantage of a situation and grandstand. I am not like that. This forum is not like that! Maybe you don't understand what I mean… I think some do! I don't really wish to offend you mate, but your constant prodding appears to me to be for no reason other than to provoke me and/or waste my time. I could be wrong, but that is the impression that I am getting. I hope that is clear! I cannot explain myself further to you. If you don't 'get it,' I am sorry. There is a lot of reading that one can do on ones own about forum courtesy, as in not comparing one's (another member's) country to that of a communist state! It is pretty clear I think, that it is offensive to more than just me! Furthermore, there are plenty of books on Marx, Engels, Lenin and the likes of all sorts of communist leaders and heroes to understand their view of life, freedom, the state of man and how they should govern and control it. I suggest you do some homework and we can talk again. Lastly, I am not going to go state to state and risk offending members from those states offering unwanted opinions on how they govern. I don't really want people to do that with my 'state' and as a courtesy, I don't think that I should do it to theirs. North America, South and Central America, Asia, the Pacific, Africa and Europe; we all have our problems. This forum was not made on telling each other what is wrong with our neighbors government. This is a Cuban cigar board. Cuban cigars, and many other interests, and sometimes even the Cuban government and its leaders are the topics. Haiti, is not the topic, not here anyway! If you wish to start a topic on the Haitian government, I doubt that it will glean much interest from me, but feel free to do so if you wish! Others might like it, perhaps you should try it! To spell it out for you, I am willing to end it here, so we can both stop looking foolish! If that bothers you, continue to post… Be my guest. I hope my lack of further response does not offend you. I have made my point and all that are interested have likely read it. I doubt I have changed anyone's mind; so be it. For me, I got to know where some members stand. They got to know where I stand. I have been insulted and insulted others; and made amends! All is right in my world. The thread stayed up, thoughts were provoked and discussion ensued, some of us got to know each other better. I am not angry with anyone, and hopefully no one is angry with me. I don't want you to get angry with me either. I am calling the quits. Cheers, Ray 1
mk05 Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 At least he transiently amused you a little bit. Still waiting for my nail clippings...
El Presidente Posted August 20, 2014 Author Posted August 20, 2014 So I get asked to moderate this thread Yet I see little but spirited and enlightened banter from both sides of the abyss. Educate us, inform us, enlighten us without personal attack. That is it. That is FOH. For the record I detest Fidel and cronies for the opportunity he stole from generations. (yes...there goes another visa). Did he do some good? absolutely. Simply medical (for a time) and literacy are among the highest in central and south america. I remember that his first visit outside of Cuba once taking power was to the US. The president refused to see him. he was in NY at the time? my memory fails me. (my opinion) Fidel was never a true communist/socialist but an opportunist. he went to the US for support, got none and went to the soviet union. You need to put yourself in the time frame 50+ years ago. In the end the development of a sustainable society (in whatever frame) is internal. He failed. Relying on the uneconomic policy via a third party is never going to last. there are lessons there for other economies/societies today.;...including Oz. 1
Maplepie Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 (my opinion) Fidel was never a true communist/socialist but an opportunist. Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, etc. Use communism as a moral highground to achieve power. Get corrupted by ther power (sometimes were already corrupted). Communism (no matter how pure) is a breeding pond for plutocrats. Ironic, eh? Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.
Heawns Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Why all the criticism , are other world leaders better than him, many nations have been ill treated by leaders who claim they are democratic. Anyway i do not think it is good form to wish someone ill , because you only disagree with him. They are democratic. (Well, certainly the USA is.) The only problem; democracy is only what it is. A God that fizzailed. (Like with communism, you can't invoke fantasy utopias, and ignore the reality at hand)
Maplepie Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Ooooooh. I'm going to get flak for saying this... How is the US any different? Are they really a democratic system when it's a two party system vying for control with a 5-10% difference? Are the two parties any different? With a figurehead president, everything else is done separately so let me ask you: what has really changed with these votes? Can you change anything in voting systems in the states? Going by all my assumptions, how do the states differ [politically] from [say] Cuba? Just that the people actually believe they're able to change anything big by political decisions. Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.
Heawns Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Ooooooh. I'm going to get flak for saying this... How is the US any different? Are they really a democratic system when it's a two party system vying for control with a 5-10% difference? Are the two parties any different? With a figurehead president, everything else is done separately so let me ask you: what has really changed with these votes? Can you change anything in voting systems in the states? Going by all my assumptions, how do the states differ [politically] from [say] Cuba? Just that the people actually believe they're able to change anything big by political decisions. Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry. If you are to take Hoppe's word for it, democracy is simply a mild form of communism. 33 minutes in Anyway, I have always enjoyed Castro, in that he is an interesting figure.
MPS Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 What about basic human rights like expressing your views publicly without fear of being thrown in jail? Peaceful protest? Organizing independently of the state? Sounds like people take their most basic human rights for granted. BTW the will and votes of the people have changed many things in the USA since we became a nation. 2
El Presidente Posted August 20, 2014 Author Posted August 20, 2014 Ooooooh. I'm going to get flak for saying this... How is the US any different? Are they really a democratic system when it's a two party system vying for control with a 5-10% difference? Are the two parties any different? With a figurehead president, everything else is done separately so let me ask you: what has really changed with these votes? Can you change anything in voting systems in the states? Going by all my assumptions, how do the states differ [politically] from [say] Cuba? Just that the people actually believe they're able to change anything big by political decisions. Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry. Difference is you and I can go start a business. Protest in the streets non violently.as much as you want. No max wage. You are free to build an empire if you have the resources or nouse. You are not restricted. Or you can earn your public service wage or pension and not have too much of a concern. Maybe a day or two a week on the aside. That is not Cuba. 1
Maplepie Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Difference is you and I can go start a business. Protest in the streets non violently.as much as you want. No max wage. I was talking more about the allusions in political oppression. The thought came to mind a few times whilst I wrotre that long winded thing. But I had to continuously remind myself of the differences between political, social, and economic freedoms. To a point, so should we as we continue a discussion on the US and Cuban political system. Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.
El Presidente Posted August 20, 2014 Author Posted August 20, 2014 Political oppression in Cuba covers many things. Not being able to have whomever you want in your house. having to steal an internet connection. Just plain living in Havana needing 280 CUC a month to live. Being paid 20 . Being forced to steal. If you haven;'t seen the inside. No use trying to convert the externals. it is crap. Plain and simple. 1
stigmata Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 i reckon everything is an illusion. and protest on the streets non violently can mean u get pepper sprayed its just how much of the propaganda youre willing to swallow sure in the usa ...everybody can start an empire///.. but with one 6th of the population and growing ...beneath the poverty line.. i reckon thats another myth. One thing that is not in dispute .. whilst the average American/Australians standard of living is declining... the top 1% are multiplying their wealth very rapidly... 1
Maplepie Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 I was referring more to the way the government is constructed. As opposed to what the government does to its people. Don't get me wrong. I'm not glorifying it at all. Only responding to the general political system's flaws. As well as the discussion on it a day or two ago... Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.
El Presidente Posted August 20, 2014 Author Posted August 20, 2014 One thing that is not in dispute .. whilst the average American/Australians standard of living is declining... the top 1% are multiplying their wealth very rapidly... They inherit it or they work, they take risks and are rewarded, or they fall (unless you are too big to fall and that is a discussion for another day) none of that opportunity is available in Cuba. 1
stigmata Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Oh but the average Australian cant use the lawyers and the accountants the non averaage American and Australians can use.. The tax laws and the legalities certainly do favour one group of people over another. Also the democratic social forward Australians and Americans have certainly allowed their democratically elected goverments to be involved in some pretty bloodthirsty wars. Take Vietnam for instance. There are so many things people can look at from different angles about any society... Again.. im just enthralled with some of this Castro Commo hate... from a society who has built a nation on the back of slavery and six dollar minimum wages Not sure how Castro gets all the hate.. 1
El Presidente Posted August 20, 2014 Author Posted August 20, 2014 I do have mates in Cuba doing very well. it is 90% clandestine. Why should they have to do so?. 1
stigmata Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 it all gets down to what we are talking about here are we talking about castro the murderer.? castro the tyrant stamping on peoples rights and democracy? would cuba have been what is it wasnt for castro?... well we wuld be speculating really wouldnt we? It wouldnt be logical to talk about Cuba full of wealth (unless were talking about the 1%) Unless you can poiint to me on a map an island in that region without poverty and corruption? What we can say as fact is what it was beforehand...wasnt a very nice place for the average Cuban...and certainly it wasnt independent i think if we know the history of the island we can all agree on that? Now whether we would have had another pro American Jean Claude Duvalier ( baby Doc ) and the IMF with all their pillaging is open to discussion... 1
El Presidente Posted August 20, 2014 Author Posted August 20, 2014 Oh but the average Australian cant use the lawyers and the accountants the non averaage American and Australians can use.. The tax laws and the legalities certainly do favour one group of people over another. Also the democratic social forward Australians and Americans have certainly allowed their democratically elected goverments to be involved in some pretty bloodthirsty wars. Take Vietnam for instance. There are so many things people can look at from different angles about any society... Again.. im just enthralled with some of this Castro Commo hate... from a society who has built a nation on the back of slavery and six dollar minimum wages Not sure how Castro gets all the hate.. Seriously? There are no $6 minimum wages here in Oz, nor Germany, nor in many countries. I only ask you to consider the other side of the coin. Have been to Cuba for many years. I am 49.. I developed friends in Cuba who were in their early 20,s. They all wished for a future for themselves. Opportunity. We move on 25 years and they hope the same for their sons and daughters. There is none, It is crap pure and simple. I love the place for its people.Nothing else. 2
pbibby Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 They inherit it or they work, they take risks and are rewarded, or they fall (unless you are too big to fall and that is a discussion for another day) none of that opportunity is available in Cuba. This. There is 0 opportunity in Cuba. Not so in America. Carry on. 1
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