bobbutcher Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Hi, I was doing some reading on the net and was just wondering if anyone uses or has tried these beads. I have read some good reviews but wanted to know if anyone had first hand experience. http://www.hcmcigarbeads.com/default.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stargazer14 Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Looks interesting and not much more in price than other beads that must be replaced. I say go for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cohiba Stevie Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 They have been getting a massive following over the last year or so. Ive been using marks beads from cigarmony.com which are pretty much the same as the heartfelt beads without any problems whatsoever, however if i was to run in to any problems (unlikely) i will be trying these beads next. I do like the zero maintenance aspect and the fact you can adjust their humidity setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbutcher Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 I have both hearfelt and beads from cigarmony.com, never had a problem at all with them, I just saw these and liked the no maintenance might grab some and see how they go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I have studied desiccant products for cigar buffer usage for many years now. I have read over this site rather throughly and there are a number of claims made that I am skeptical of. The lack of supporting data, "evidence" of the claims made, feeds my suspicion about them. As a seller of bead desiccants for cigar usage I am a competitor of this person. I figure that I should get that out as a matter of full disclosure. I don't know everything, and that includes what this product is by sight with 100 percent certainty. I have a pretty good idea however, since I have tested many industrial desiccants as a matter of developing my own product line. There is no 'wonderkind' of the desiccant market. They are all similar in many ways and different in others. The world of desiccants is a world of trade offs. All of these products can be polluted if mishandled. I use industrial desiccants that are typically used in the natural gas refining industry, and they can be regenerated via a heat dehydration process, thousands of times but they don't last forever! None of them do! I think it should be understood that a desiccants life is largely determined by the regeneration process and the control of heat used in the process and by pollution. It is the heating process that does the most damage to the desiccant, pollution notwithstanding, and that is the fastest way to break them down. Using a refrigerator to dehydrate them is certainly a means to do so, except that it is not really practical in industry as the desorption of water out of a desiccant is an endothermic process, meaning that heating aids the process and cooling hinders it. Ever hear that cracking sound while putting water on your beads? That is because sorption is an exothermic process and the liquid water creates a very high heat at the points of contact that actually fracture the desiccant. Yes, you actually can "cook" your desiccant by putting water on it! I believe that there are a number of errors on the site but that does not make the claims dishonest. What it does do however, is offer some insight as to the actual knowledge of the persons making the claims. I am not going to nitpick as a matter of fairness. On a positive note, the seller has gone through some lengths to get his customers to understand something about desiccants as buffers and that I think that is commendable. I found good accurate information on the site as well. The actual claims regarding recovery time and water volume I find questionable. For our purposes liquid water is not a factor and absorption is not the process used in our humidors. It is the surface bonding of water vapor via a polar mechanical bond that allows sorbents to work in our humidors. It is in this process that the most prolific and successful commercial sorbents are judged. Their performance is determined via an empirical approach and displayed visually on isothermal charts. For your pleasure I have included a chart that illustrates a comparison of isothermal properties of desiccants showing percentage water content verses ERH saturation. I would like you to note that they are different but there is not one on there that is proven to hold 5x the water of another at 65rH. Of course, this is a chart of common industrial desiccants. If the product offered is not considered an industrial desiccant, but rather an industrial absorbent then that could make a difference here. Remember, we are not judging products by how much "liquid" water that they can hold! Not unless you are drowning your cigars in liquid water!!! By the way, this chart is from a comprehensive textbook on the subject by RT Yang. You see guys... these desiccants are not developed for us. We don't represent a market segment large enough to get a producer interested, not to say that one cannot get it done if he/she has the bankroll. Our interests however are similar enough to piggyback on the technology of other industries. You simply have to know how each material behaves and either choose one, or blend them to suit your own needs. I don't think one desiccant is the answer. I am a desiccant blender, not just a chooser. I do expect however that if one is going to claim that their desiccant will hold 5 times the water vapor of a competitors they should put up an isothermal chart of their product for comparison. I am skeptical of such a claim, but I am a competitor as well as a cigar enthusiast. I buy my desiccant dry. I have conditioned hundreds of samples. I know that a 1.6 litre silo of my desiccant holds 330 ml of water and will deliver 64.5 rH ERH when circulating. 5 times that is pure water.... So much water that it is more than the volume of the container itself. You see I think if you are going to make claims you should let your customer test it for himself! Tell the customer what 100ml of your dry desiccant holds in water at 65rH and let people decide for themselves. I speculate that most of these folks don't even know the capacities of their own products themselves!!! If you look at the chart again you will see that the common industrial desiccants tested by an expert max out at about 40% by weight at 100rH. Some don't make it that far. Molecular sieves are by design very specific in nature and give an almost flat line. Blending gives the isotherm a sweet spot. That is the theory anyway! I say buy some and try it. But if you are buying because you believe it will never get polluted, or that it has the capacity to hold 5 times the water vapor of your other beads, prepare for disappointment. Anyone wishing to know more about desiccant technology can read my many posts on the topic on this site, or email me. Cheers. -the Pig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 They have been getting a massive following over the last year or so. Ive been using marks beads from cigarmony.com which are pretty much the same as the heartfelt beads without any problems whatsoever, however if i was to run in to any problems (unlikely) i will be trying these beads next. I do like the zero maintenance aspect and the fact you can adjust their humidity setting. Desiccants are just like your cigars. They are hygroscopic. That means that they are adjusted by surrounding environment. Adjusting sealed cigar microclimates is a matter of balancing the ErH of all the components inside. Beads work as a buffer for cigars because their PMC (percent moisture content) to ErH as a ratio is higher than that of the cigar. Gram for gram, they hold more water than tobacco does. If you assume that your condtionted cigar is approximately 10% water by weight at 65rH and your desiccant is about 30% at the same ErH then you can see that your desiccant is like a battery for water vapor. A small amount of water in your system can change a cigar a significant amount. At the same time it will change the desiccant, depending on the total amount, only a small amount. Desiccants therefore make wonderful buffers for cigars. Any desiccant will change in percentage water composition until it is dehydrated or saturated if the surrounding ErH demands it. Buying a 65rH conditioned bead does not mean that it can only be conditioned at that ErH. The very instant you remove it from the bag it begins its journey. It only remains 65rH if you leave it in a 65rH ErH environment. Put it in a 60 ErH environment were the contents will take on the water and the beads will become 60 ErH. Beads are not programmed nor are they smart. They are controlled by a more powerful environment and conversely they will control a lesser powerful environment. -the Pig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbutcher Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 Thanks for the info, def wasnt looking at it for the claims made about water vapor capacity or non polluting, i'm about to make the move to a cooler and will be looking for around another 2pounds of beads and it seems postage to Aus is pretty expensive so just seeing what is out there. I have been looking at the cigar oasis but finding it hard to locate one in Aus and the ones I have looked at on the net don't have an option for 240v power, I know I could get an adaptor to step the power to the correct voltage, but just looking at options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Systems, especially active ones, should be designed around ambient conditions. I tell everyone, customer or otherwise, if you don't need an active system, save yourself the money! You have to know what you have (in ambient conditions) and where you want to go and why, to get the most for your system dollar. Some guys really get great service out of the good ol' ice chest humidor. If you can get away without the controls, the costs and complexities then you should go that route. Great luck on your project. Cheers. -Piggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jszeto Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Pig, I've been using the heartfelt beads for a couple of months now and I am starting to notice that my beads are breaking down. There are white dust/ grainy textures at the bottom of my mesh bags. Should I be concerned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ritan Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 HCM beads started as Shilala beads circa 2008. Scott introduced them on several cigar boards then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Pig, I've been using the heartfelt beads for a couple of months now and I am starting to notice that my beads are breaking down. There are white dust/ grainy textures at the bottom of my mesh bags. Should I be concerned? Took some time to smoke a Siglo 3 '07 with my horses... back now! First amigo I am not really in the position to talk directly about another's product, you should really ask them. Talking of others products is not only guesswork on my part it may be perceived as deriding and I don't wish to do that. Like the above posts I am happy to enter into academic discussions about desiccant products in general, including my own, but I don't wish to be perceived as deriding the efforts of others. It is a fine line and I am trying to walk it carefully. Please understand that I am speculating and generalizing! Here is what I can tell you. I can tell you a little about desiccants. There are very few silica based desiccant products that are considered water resistant. A quick study of commercial industrial desiccants will net you that information. For silica this means that in order to make it water resistant you need to substantially increase the pore diameter of the desiccant which in turn reduces the surface area. You see, IT IS A TRADE OFF. There are cost factors as well as construction differences. Each factor effects the way the desiccant works. The make up of my desiccants (just like the other guys) is proprietary. That means I am not going to tell you how they are made!!! -LOL What I can tell you is that I use water resistant desiccants so that if they are contacted with liquid water it does not do the same extent of damage to them as it would the non-resistant variety. The dust you are finding is existing dust, settling out, or evidence that you spray water on them directly to condition them. Mine too will pop if you spray them when dry! None of them are really designed to have water applied to them directly. The water resistant varieties are designed to safeguard other desiccant products from direct water contact in a silo. I specify that mine are of that variety. Water resistant varieties are more expensive so the industrial users that buy them use them as a bedding in their silos with the water resistant products nested under the lesser expensive products. When you are talking tons of material used the protection is worth the additional cost. When dealing in this quantity the difference in price makes the layering of different materials also the most cost effective method verses simply using the water resistant variety exclusively. It is an established industry axiom, that liquid water directly on high grade desiccant products contributes to their deterioration. It would be good to note however, that even the little chips that pop off, still work! Silica dust however can lead to silicosis which makes breathing it not a recommended practice. In most cases the dust is a pollutant and it is discarded. No one should actually be putting water directly on their desiccant. I have however tested an active desiccant humidifier that requires that you do exactly that; apply water directly to the desiccant inside. Break the rules when it is convenient to you is then a general rule! It has to be understood however that the desiccant humidifier serves a different purpose than the desiccant as a buffer. I think it is important to note that I am wearing a couple of hats here. I like to keep my reputation as an objective and honest individual so I will break my points down to that of an academic discussion regarding desiccants and as a businessman discussing my own products. The aforementioned is largely an academic discussion regarding desiccants generally with some personal experience regarding my own product. Here is the good news! If your products have served you well then there is no need to change. Simply understand that the application of liquid water is likely the cause of this problem and anything that is dissolved or suspended in the water will likely also pollute your desiccant. Academically, spraying a desiccant has to be considered as a poor but pragmatic practice for wetting beads. Honest evaluation requires that one look at the pragmatic application of practices and weigh the cost as well as the benefits. Circulating a water rich air stream through the desiccant pack is the correct way to condition them. It is the application of water vapor, not liquid water to your beads that is the correct means to adjust their water level. Most people are not going to go through that amount of trouble to emulate the industrial process nor correctly condition their beads. I do! I build systems with controls where the beads condition themselves as a part of the operation of a working humidor. Considering that most people have no idea what the isothermal charts look like for the products that they use, nor do they have the time, inclination nor the specialized equipment to analyze their product of choice, nor the ability to apply the solution, it is best just not to worry about it. Don't let it drive you nuts! It is simply not that important! Doing what is convenient is (likely) ruining your desiccant products. But there is not much you can do about it with out changing your protocol for conditioning your beads. I tend to cater to those that sweat these details. I am such a person. You have to decide for yourself what camp you reside in. Some of us are storage fanatics by choice and other because our ambient conditions demand it. I still like to consider myself a pragmatist. Just like the cigars you smoke, how you choose to store your cigars defines your smoker's character. The science speaks for itself, I see it as FACT. On the flip side, there is no wrong in preference! Cheers and Happy New Year Your friend, -the Pig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt45 Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Beads are not programmed nor are they smart. They are controlled by a more powerful environment and conversely they will control a lesser powerful environment. Ray, I always read your take on these topics with interest - I think the above quote really hits the nail on the head when it comes to desiccants, and it's very helpful to keep in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Ray, I always read your take on these topics with interest - I think the above quote really hits the nail on the head when it comes to desiccants, and it's very helpful to keep in mind. Thank you my friend, that is a complement. In rereading what I write I often wonder if my crude analogies of elegant phenomenon make a difference to the reader or make the subject more confusing. I appreciate your input. I hope to be finished soon with a fun "white paper" on rH and ErH, absolute humidity and tobacco. It should be a good read. The bad news is, the word concise, still eludes me! Happy New Year. Your friend, Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpodiluk Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I also enjoy your explanation on this subject. I'm new into this cigar collecting thing and I'm looking into getting/building a humidor. The more info I get the better decision I can make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Piggy, thanks for the info, you are a wealth of knowledge... but now my head hurts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 The guy who authored the phrase, "What you don't know can't hurt you," is a moron! It is precisely what you don't know that often costs you the most money. Sharing knowledge is one of my favorite aspects of this site. It is my pleasure, my friends. Thanks for the complements. -Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munts Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 The bad news is, the word concise, still eludes me! As a person who writes government policy I certainly can relate to that. There is a famous quote that always springs to mind, it goes along the lines of "If I'd had more time I'd have written a shorter letter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 "If I'd had more time I'd have written a shorter letter". Pascal. I can relate to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stargazer14 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Thanks Pig for taking the time on this, it's appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacapa Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Thanks for the info Pig! Here i was thinking id done my humidification homework and then through a couple of simple posts from you Ive learned a tonne more! An extra question a bit off topic to the OP if i may: other than smell, is cedar in a wineador etc primarily to add an additional "buffer" for the cigars also? I imagine that the ability of cedar to hold moisture would also be higher than tobacco just as the HCM or other humidification products are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Thanks for the info Pig! Here i was thinking id done my humidification homework and then through a couple of simple posts from you Ive learned a tonne more! An extra question a bit off topic to the OP if i may: other than smell, is cedar in a wineador etc primarily to add an additional "buffer" for the cigars also? I imagine that the ability of cedar to hold moisture would also be higher than tobacco just as the HCM or other humidification products are Bear in mind that I am not an expert in the hygroscopic nature of wood. I have not made a study of wood isotherms. It is assumed so, yes. There are distictions however. Wood, like tobacco is a natural substance, manipulated (shaped) for mans use but not exactly engineered to remove water vapor. The point is this. Wood will actually acclimatize to your humidor via the process of ErH just like tobacco. It well therefore hold water as a source of water just like tobacco. The bond strength of the free water, and the bound water however will be the ultimate question. Will wood or tobacco give up, or gain water first via a differential would therefor be a distinction? You might find ultimately that in attempting to humidify tobacco the tobacco will react faster than the wood, which would be my guess. You may find ultimately that tobacco is acting more like a buffer for your wood! I believe this is actually the case. As a source of water in your humidor that has a water activity (Aw) associated with it, it must give water up when the Aw delta demands it. The question is again, who gives up water first, the tobacco or the wood? This then is an extremely complex question and ultimately it has to do with the bond strength of free and bound water of different substances and the latent effects of change or the hysteresis of all the components in your humidor. With a sharp drop in humidity in your humidor, all the hygroscopic components will react to the delta. They will all work to change the ErH of the humidor back to match the Aw of the components that are in equilibrium. There will be a period of time where perhaps one item does most of the work. The idea then is to force the item to be something other than the cigar. I use an active desiccant silo and an active humidifier with a logic controller. If you are dependent on letting nature take its course then the various components will compete for water based on their bond strengths until ErH occurs. Beyond being a source for water, I would imagine that cigars open to the air in a space with wood will likely buffer the wood before the wood buffers them! Remember, we don't protect wood with tobacco... We protect tobacco with wood. Wood therefore is the barrier and likely more resilient to changes in humidity than tobacco. With two free forms competing for water, wood will likely win over the ruination of a cigar. Leave a pencil out in the room for two weeks and it does not deteriorate. Your cigar may very well dry completely and crack. The same holds true for desiccants. Put a dry desiccant in with a cigar and it will dry it to the bone. You may find that the desiccant will actually take water initially from the cigar and that is why it is better to keep cigars in boxes in your humidor. However, the charged desiccant must react to a differential as well. Its large water vapor contents allows it to give up a little water to adjust the rH of the humidor a lot. Its value is that it acts like a battery of water vapor. You must remember however, that an open cigar will likely lose a battle for water vapor with your desiccant. The way to change this is to force the desiccant to work with airflow and always protect your cigars with a box. Food for thought! Cheers -Piggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacapa Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Again, Pig youre a wealth of info. You may not claim to be an expert on the properties of wood, but you couldve fooled me if you said you were Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Again, Pig youre a wealth of info. You may not claim to be an expert on the properties of wood, but you couldve fooled me if you said you were ...the pleasure is all mine! Thank you for the complements. -Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianbeaver Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Thanks Ray! Even I found this fascinating and I have the attention span of a bowl of Lucky Charms. L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Thanks Ray! Even I found this fascinating and I have the attention span of a bowl of Lucky Charms. L ... always welcome my friend. -R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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