bolt and lewis

[Ken Gargett]

i thought that the achievements of usain bolt in these olympics, and the personality of the big bloke, are one of the real highlights. an extraordinary achievement by any standard. i have grave suspicions about a great many of the athletes at these, and other, olympics but i really hope that he was drug free. we'll probably never know.

but i thought that carl lewis casting doubt on what bolt has done was one of the most monumental pieces of hypocrisy i have seen in a long time. it did remind me of that old springsteen song, 'glory days'. is he really feeling attention deficit? while his own record is well known, is he involved in athletics in any form these days? does he still have a profile in the states? i never hear anything about him these days (unless, ironically, people are talking drugs in sports).

[El Presidente]

I haven't read the Carl Lewis statement, only media reports. Given media are on the same level as politicians, I would like to confirm what he actually said and in context before condemming.

Having said that. There is a preponderace of unsubstantiated mud throwing at these Olympics. You don't have to look any frther than Channel 9 "Media" Swimming commentator Rebecca Wilson casting drug aspertions on the womens Chinese Swimmer Gold medalist.

I would have a slander charge on Wilson within a day if I were the Chinese Swimmer or Chinese Swimming association. If what Lewis said was purportedly correct.....same.

[Ken Gargett]

agree with most of that (except elevating politicians). evidence/proof should be required.

of course, that then plays to the benefit of those athletes that are cheats as they can shut down any doubts (and for what it is worth, one of the reasons i have far less interest in the olympics these days is that i do believe that drugs play a major role, sadly).

i also suspect that the authorities are far less keen to expose it than they might claim. tarnishes the entire image if a heap of drug cheats. last thing they want is that the games be remembered for drugs rather than star athletes. far better to knock off a few minor athletes to make it look as though they are doing their job. if a bolt or a phelps or any of the other superstars were exposed, then all the wrong headlines. i think they would much rather keep it quiet (if, of course, it happened and one would not wish to cast suspicions without evidence etc etc).

if anyone has a correct answer to all, please let us all know.

[Yoruba Hacker]

I don't think I know what "does he have a profile in the US" means.

But he's Carl ****in Lewis. He's an Icon. The greatest and most decorated American Track and Field athlete ever, and on my personal Mt. Rushmore (American reference for those unfamiliar) of track royalty that includes Bubka, El Guerrouj, Johnson and Gebs. And soon Rudisha (my God).

He's interviewed frequently here, if that gets to what you're asking, but has kept a low profile.

[Ken Gargett]

I don't think I know what "does he have a profile in the US" means.

But he's Carl ****in Lewis. He's an Icon. The greatest and most decorated American Track and Field athlete ever, and on my personal Mt. Rushmore (American reference for those unfamiliar) of track royalty that includes Bubka, El Guerrouj, Johnson and Gebs. And soon Rudisha (my God).

He's interviewed frequently here, if that gets to what you're asking, but has kept a low profile.

that was pretty much what i was asking. we don't see/hear much of him over here, these days. i wondered if he had gone off and was rarely seen/heard or if he was a regular commentator. i still think it seriously rich that he made these comments (if, as rob says, thery are true).

[HydroRaven]

Lewis proves you don't need to be smart to run fast.

[Yoruba Hacker]

that was pretty much what i was asking. we don't see/hear much of him over here, these days. i wondered if he had gone off and was rarely seen/heard or if he was a regular commentator. i still think it seriously rich that he made these comments (if, as rob says, thery are true).

Again, I'm not getting what the rumpus is.

He said they don't have mandatory offseason testing in Jamaica, and they should.

That is true.

So what?

[westg]

In any circumstance Bolt would wipe the floor with Lewis...Rebecca Wilson would be working for free. She can comment on the long jump any time.

[Ken Gargett]

Again, I'm not getting what the rumpus is.

He said they don't have mandatory offseason testing in Jamaica, and they should.

That is true.

So what?

that is very different to what was reported here. our 'version' was that lewis made it clear on several occasions he believed that time would prove bolt's race times to have been drug-assisted. bolt came back saying he had no respect for lewis and it all got a bit unpleasant.

my point was, silly thing for lewis to have done, especially with his record. in fact, rather dumb because what it does is put the spotlight back on that record. if he believes time will expose bolt (and i have no idea if it will - to my knowledge, he has never tested positive though some teammates have?), then keep quiet and let it happen. unless you have evidence and then, put it forth.

but could not agree more re the testing as you mention it.

[westg]

He can run three tenths of a second faster than Lewis did, or so..not a bad progression in 16 years sinse Lewis was at his best.I don't think this makes him a drug cheat. A freaky athlete who can entertaine a crowd .Be nice to see him at centre half foward for West Coast.

[Ken Gargett]

He can run three tenths of a second faster than Lewis did, or so..not a bad progression in 16 years sinse Lewis was at his best.I don't think this makes him a drug cheat. A freaky athlete who can entertaine a crowd .Be nice to see him at centre half foward for West Coast.

to clarify, i certainly wasn't saying bolt was a drug cheat and i really hope he is not.

[Dimmers]

Channel 9 here in oz as part of its Olympic coverage, had a panel discussion on Bolt a few days ago - Linford Christie, Daley Thompson and Michael Johnson. Johnson sunk the boot into Lewis, saying he had turned his back on athletics since he left, and had also denigrated the sport quite a bit ( not sure what he was referring to, though didnt sound like Bolt specific quotes). I have no context, though interesting to see all panel members agreeing.

[Scdalak]

He is a great personality Ken, last night he called himself the "Greatest Athelete in the World". In most cases when a self proclimation like this hits the media, we want to attack the big mouth. However, he can really pull it off in a Muhammud Ali sort of way. Hes very likeable and entertaining.

[Hollywood414]

He is a great personality Ken, last night he called himself the "Greatest Athelete in the World". In most cases when a self proclimation like this hits the media, we want to attack the big mouth. However, he can really pull it off in a Muhammud Ali sort of way. Hes very likeable and entertaining.

Personally, all other things aside, no way is he the "greatest athlete in the world". He has won five gold medals and some World Championships all in the same two events. No doubt he is a great athlete and is very entertaining but "the greatest athlete in the world" is a bit of a stretch.

[Scdalak]

Personally, all other things aside, no way is he the "greatest athlete in the world". He has won five gold medals and some World Championships all in the same two events. No doubt he is a great athlete and is very entertaining but "the greatest athlete in the world" is a bit of a stretch.

Oh I agree whole heartedly, but if you saw the interview it was kinda tounge in cheek.. As i mentioned it was reminiscient of Ali "IM THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME".. "IM A BADDDDD MAN".... Entertaining..

[canadianbeaver]

Seems all superstars of the moment make this claim. It is a bit much.

[Yoruba Hacker]

Hmmm...

OK, so here's how ESPN reported it:

http://espn.go.com/olympics/summer/2012/trackandfield/story/_/id/8253924/2012-london-olympics-usain-bolt-fiercely-criticizes-former-us-athlete-carl-lewis

Again, I have no problem with what Carl said. At least with what this article says he said.

Also, there have been a couple of references (this and other threads) to Carl Lewis and doping. The facts as I remember them were that there was once a positive test for ephedra which was thrown out because of inadverdent consumption (cold medicine). Later confirmed that the amount that was in his sytem at the time was far below the current standard for ephedra. It was a non-story, but it's somehow morphed into a grand conspiracy theory thirty years later. Back in the day, there were rumors about Americans like Greg Foster (Hall of Fame hurdler) and FloJo getting caught with positive steroid tests that were somehow intimidated away (the Lance Armstrong "I'll sue your ass" approach), but this was not that.

And let's be clear, Johan Blake WAS banned, albeit briefly, for taking a stimulant (or testing positive for a derivative of a banned stimulant if I remember correctly), along with other members of the Jamaican junior team (can't remember names), so it's not like Lewis is coming out of his @ss with this stuff.

<Rant alert>

I used to run track and was on the periphery of the circuit (nowhere near these guys), and I gotta tell ya, I get that it's just numbers on a page to you guys, but there's simply no way a human being can regularly crank out sub-9.8 and 19.7 100 and 200 meters without help.

Hell, just think about it: Michael Johnson, himself a superhuman - Homo Superior - on a perfect night, on a perfect track made a Beamonesque advancement in the 200 from the previous greatest 200 in history - his 19.66 on that same track beating the time that was the previous world record for 17 years - to a place people like me would have bet their children they would never see again in their lifetimes - 19.32. And which he never came within .42 of EVER AGAIN at sea level. The greatest long sprinter in history.

And Bolt runs .02 and .13 FASTER into HEADWINDS and equals that 19.32 yesterday VISIBLY SHUTTING IT OFF the final 15 meters or so? Runs faster than Johnson's preposterous 19.66 EIGHT TIMES; FIVE TIMES INTO HEADWINDS, in the last four years, and you're thinking that's cause of yams and plyometrics? You don't make leaps in human performance like that. Beamon's long jump has still only been bettered once. Since 1968!

That said, it ain't cheating if everybody does it, which is the legitimate place to have issue with Carl. He knows there ain't no choirboys on the circuit, and so you have to wonder about him talking this up. Reminds me of the Hall of Famers in US baseball railing against the steroid users' assault on the record books. Bolt is Barry Bonds. Preposterous talent plus world class "resources."

And like Barry, people get mad when natural talent that is already unfair is further augmented. Oh well.

[Yoruba Hacker]

Seems all superstars of the moment make this claim. It is a bit much.

My previous post notwithstanding, in an absolute sense, maybe not.

What he's doing and the frequency with which he's doing it is Superhuman. Inhuman, maybe.

[perfectform]

Interesting perspective YH. Kind of reminds me of people defending Lance to the death for many years.

[Orion21]

I haven't read the Carl Lewis statement, only media reports. Given media are on the same level as politicians, I would like to confirm what he actually said and in context before condemming.

Having said that. There is a preponderace of unsubstantiated mud throwing at these Olympics. You don't have to look any frther than Channel 9 "Media" Swimming commentator Rebecca Wilson casting drug aspertions on the womens Chinese Swimmer Gold medalist.

I would have a slander charge on Wilson within a day if I were the Chinese Swimmer or Chinese Swimming association. If what Lewis said was purportedly correct.....same.

Rob,

I would like to agree with you, but the Chinese have a history of systematic cheating as evidence look at what happened to their gymnastics Gold Medals from their own Olympics. Conveniently two years after the fact the IOC found that the Chinese purposefully fielded 9 & 10 year old girls by falsifying their birth records (You have to be 16 to compete). The results were set aside, but they weren't even made to return their medals.

The IOC is the problem. They don't want to know when athletes are cheating until after the Olympics have passed and the public's attention is drawn elsewhere. Then and only then will they act to investigate and enforce their own rules.

The issue with the young swimmer is that she is only 16 years old and bettered her personal best times by 2-4 seconds within a few months AND swam a faster final 50 meters of the 400M IM than the Mens Gold Medal winner from the USA. I swam as a child and am friends with a lot of men and women who swam competitively from childhood thru college and know a few Olympians who swam for the US. Every single one of them thinks she cheated. Just because she didn't test positive at the games does not mean she wasn't doping before.

[Yoruba Hacker]

Interesting perspective YH. Kind of reminds me of people defending Lance to the death for many years.

I hope it's different than the Lance defenders. They actually argue that he's clean, which is ridiculous in my opinion.

I take it you're pointing out that the fact of Lance's doping would take nothing away from the fact that he won all of those Tours against others who were doping. I agree with that wholeheartedly. It's still a great story, performance enhanced or not.

Which is why I'm an anti-Lance guy. Total hypocrite. And liar who would destroy other people's lives and portray himself as a God who can beat the best cycling machines on the planet on PED's while being clean himself. Total crap.

[Orion21]

My previous post notwithstanding, in an absolute sense, maybe not.

What he's doing and the frequency with which he's doing it is Superhuman. Inhuman, maybe.

Usain Bolt is a freak of nature brother. He stands 6'5" and has the athletic coordination of a much smaller man. Michael Johnson is my favorite Olympian of all-time, but he was only 6'1" tall. It's athletic science that if a taller man, with longer legs, is trained properly he will take few strides to get to the end of the race faster. There is evidence in this games by Aries Merritt of the USA who won gold in the 110M hurdles. Merritt set personal bests this year and won gold by merely changing his lead leg at the blocks so he took one less step before the first hurdle. That one change made all the difference in Gold vs. no medal for him.

Also, Since winning double gold in 2008 Bolt has been raking in the money (some say has much has $20,000,000 per year). His new found wealth and ability to afford the best of training, nutrition etc could also have made a difference.

[UpInSmoak]

I know this is a little off topic but I had to post this for a pure entertainment factor. Carl Lewis sure is something else...

[canadianbeaver]

When it comes to physical stature and sport, basketball has its beanpoles and jockeys are short; some football players are behemoths and gymnasts are eunuchs.

So in other words, a 6' 5" runner may just be the 2012 edition?

[Orion21]

When it comes to physical stature and sport, basketball has its beanpoles and jockeys are short; some football players are behemoths and gymnasts are eunuchs.

So in other words, a 6' 5" runner may just be the 2012 edition?

One of the announcers said it best "he only has to take 41 strides to everyone else's 44. Even if he has a bad start, once he gets up to speed he is almost impossible to beat." So yes, his 6'5" stature is a plus, but he also can match (or best) all the other sprinters acceleration as well. Being tall isn't the only reason he wins, but all else being equal, it's what allows him to be faster than his competition.