Montaigut Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 I know this is not a strictly cigar related topic but lately it has been top of my things to think about when smoking a cigar. Have you had to deal with a gifted kid? Specifically how did you manage to get him/her through school when all he/she wanted to do was to drop out? If you know what I am talking about I would love to hear from you. For those of you who wonder what this is about here is a distressing statistic: the drop out rate is higher amongst "smart" kids than it is amongst those with learning disabilities...
Colt45 Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 Nothing that hits home directly, but I've certainly seen in life that book smart / high IQ doesn't always equate to common sense, balance or mental stability. A set of luggage makes a nice drop out gift....
TWalker Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 Specifically how did you manage to get him/her through school when all he/she wanted to do was to drop out? If you know what I am talking about I would love to hear from you. We didn't give him the choice. Our son went from high school to a job making mdf trim in a small factory. He needed to get his testosterone on (4 years on the rugby team didn't quite do it), but after several months we took the reigns and forced him back into school. We told him that he was taking that job from someone whose only hope was the job he occupied. We also told him that it was his responsibility to achieve his potential, not his 'choice'. He went through university on the deans list every year, winning scholarship after scholarship (which meant very little to him) and is now getting his masters on scholarship too. He revealed a lazy streak and a peculiar type of arrogance when he was younger, and I'd be lying if I said we weren't worried about that. He's 24 now and much more mature, and as a result seems to have found his niche. We've tried to supplant the arrogance with a swift kick in the ass and a good helping of "you may be smart, but sometimes you're a ****". It seems to have worked. So far. You're completely right about the drop out rate, too. They get bored when they're not challenged enough. It's just as worrisome as dealing with any child that refuses to reach for the laurels. Good luck man, it's not an easy problem to deal with. You're sparring with someone who's convinced they know what's best.
CaptainQuintero Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 I think talking and keep talking is always going to be a good way to see how things are progressing. If you can have a good dialogue then you can help a lot more, it will give him a good base to work from too. The most important thing is for him to be happy with life, talk to him about his goals in life and what he wants to achieve not just what his teachers and career advice tutor want him to achieve.
NMJoe Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 How old is this child? If they are old enough to have an interest beyond video games or boys/girls, perhaps a mentor that can show them all the great things they can work with, IF they finish school and apply themselves would help. e.g., they love building things or drawing, see if you can find an engineering or architecture firm that may invest a few hours a month showing them the ropes. A good dose of reality doesn't hurt either, such as touring the local fast food restaurant and showing them that side of life, including how much it costs to own a house, a car, purchase groceries, etc., and how much someone at said restaurant earns. If you have professional ties that can help in this endeavor, even better. A challenge that they are interested in is key, in my experience, which acts as the impetus that provides the means to their (and your) desired end. And, at the risk of this sounding condescending (which is most certainly not my intent), it is extremely refreshing to see that a parent is concerned and involved! Bravo to you, because so many parents seem to shy away from this very important behavior, letting the wind guide their child. Again, you are involved and that's fantastic! Best of luck! Joe
cigcars Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 I LIKE TWalker's comments. You can have a "gifted kid"...but you NEED to make him aware that arrogance, being a "know-it-all", etc., etc., etc. will have its greatly undesired consequences later (or probably sooner). He'll/she'll have to learn the social skills honed in public or private schools if you prefer. AND that little Johnny or Suzy can learn that more can be learned if some parts of regular curriculum aren't despised. Sure, they can move up into advanced learning, etc. but patience to listen to others despite their possibly feeling, "Oh, I've learned all I can here," will give them humility and patience. Otherwise he/she will get their little feelings hurt by those "in charge" who will let them know quickly; "You don't have ALL the answers!" JM2C
LeafLover Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Unless he will drop out of school to build somethings, let's say along the lines of Microsoft or Facebook, then that's hard to say. Otherwise, encourage strongly to stay and finish. Laziness and lack of motivation trumps intelligence and talent every time.
CanuckSARTech Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Hmmmm. Interesting. I have some thoughts on this, but I want to figure out how to word it....
TexAg Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 My parents always used to tell me that if I dropped out that I wouldn't be living with them anymore. I also wouldn't be able to seek shelter with any of our relatives. So the choice was very simple for me, stay in school so that I could continue to live the life that I had.
brazoseagle Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 My parents always used to tell me that if I dropped out that I wouldn't be living with them anymore. I also wouldn't be able to seek shelter with any of our relatives. So the choice was very simple for me, stay in school so that I could continue to live the life that I had. Ummmmm.......not sure if anybody wants "Gifted" or "High Intelligence" advice from an Aggie, just saying! I'm just kidding of course, a little local ribbing. But seriously, nobody wants that.............
Rushman Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Ummmmm.......not sure if anybody wants "Gifted" or "High Intelligence" advice from an Aggie, just saying! I'm just kidding of course, a little local ribbing. But seriously, nobody wants that............. you know, Aggie jokes are simply lost on people in Mexico. Thanks for that! Class of 91 by the way. --- I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=20.631694,-87.070649
CaptainQuintero Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 My eldest is in grade 11 and has been in the "gifted" program since grade 4. Up until high school they never really had much homework and basically ran the classroom as far as I could tell. Things are alot different in high school of course where there is plenty of homework and the teacher runs the class. I'm not sure if it's been a culture shock or what but my son since entering high school does just enough to pass and that's it. He doesn't do his homework or study unless forced to. It's been quite frustrating to say the least. I stay on him as much as I can and just hope he will outgrow the lazy attitude before it's too late. I've spoken to the teachers and guidance councillor mamy times but there's not really much they can do (apparently). It's up to him to stick with it I guess and up to me to try to guide him to do so. I wish I had some good advice but I won't know if what I'm doing will work out until time has run it's course. I've seeked advice from other parents with successful kids and try to use some of their advice. I'm interested to see what others have to say here. I can only speak from my recent experience with finishing the school system but I'd say something very naff but ultimately true; it's the journey not the destination. I know people who finished top of every class flew through university and masters etc and at the end of it all the only thing they actually knew was the formula for passing exams, they didn't actually know very much about any of the subjects they had supposedly aced. Schooling is just about being taught how to pass exams nowaays and not about learning the subject never mind anything to do with life. Ironically the vasty majority of these friends can't find jobs now as there are tens of thousands of people with identical CVs as them. I can only really say sit down with you kid and have some one to one talks, not ones about how important school is etc but ones which explain to him the way life works, maybe do some research together on how things have changed since you have left college/high school because right now the World is so mixed up for young people that the threat of not having some perfect future linked to doing well in classes just really has not much relevance.
orangedog Posted January 25, 2012 Posted January 25, 2012 I'm not sure how to say this without sounding arrogant or rude, and the terminology is most likely mauled from a psychology standpoint... but here is the thought I have on this from the other end... put your child in a school with people that are smarter than them. easier said than done, perhaps, but that is what ended up working for me in multiple ways. as soon as you're the big fish in the mental small pond, things get boring in a hurry. if they are really intelligent, especially in logical means (i.e. IQ), I suspect they won't stand to be the laggard. just my $0.02 - I'm certainly not an expert.
brazoseagle Posted January 25, 2012 Posted January 25, 2012 you know, Aggie jokes are simply lost on people in Mexico. Thanks for that! Class of 91 by the way. --- I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=20.631694,-87.070649 I do what I can....Sic'Em Bears!!!
CanuckSARTech Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 I know this is not a strictly cigar related topic but lately it has been top of my things to think about when smoking a cigar. Have you had to deal with a gifted kid? Specifically how did you manage to get him/her through school when all he/she wanted to do was to drop out? If you know what I am talking about I would love to hear from you. For those of you who wonder what this is about here is a distressing statistic: the drop out rate is higher amongst "smart" kids than it is amongst those with learning disabilities... Okay, I had a bit of time to think about this.... For lack of a better phrase, and definitely at the risk of sounding arrogant or self-centered, I was one of those kids (maybe key word here is "was" ). I've always scored high on IQ and aptitude tests. My folks, and my teachers, noticed this very early on in grade school. They put me through all sorts of screening and testing and evaluation, to see what could be done. I don't think it's standard practice anymore, but I actually skipped grades in grade school / elementary school. Went from grade 1 to grade 3 in one year. At the time I thought it was kinda neat, but when they wanted it to happen again in further grades (from 4 to 6 in one year), I stopped being complicit (for reasons I'll illustrate later). I was winning competitions and stuff like that in scholastics, music contests (was classically trained in the piano, and winning over other kids twice my age sometimes in competitions), mini-scholarships, public speaking, etc. In very early grades, teachers and principles were telling my parents (not ME, but my parents) what potential jobs I had the suitable gifts for, and where my focus should be. I was given some opportunities, and also treatment, that many other kids weren't able to have. Basically, it made me an outcast. In a small town, and a small school, EVERYBODY knew who I was and what was going on. So, especially going through grade school, this made me the youngest in a given grade, and therefore, since others perceived it as me supposedly thinking that I was "better" or "superior" to them, I got shuffled aside. And I mean, seriously. Picked on, teased, bullied, etc. I was the runt in any grade, being the youngest (and I was a little kid back then, delayed growth spurts), so it was easy for them. It sucked. Those that were my friends in the same grade as me, changed. And those that became my friends, would change if the "group-think" meant that it was more cool for them to do so. So, when the teachers tried to push skipping grades on me again, I was adamant against it, and pled my case to my parents to leave it as be. Even then, parents being what they are, and only with the best intentions, they were constantly on me, pushing, pushing. I mean, all through grade school, it was high-90's and A+'s solidly, and from what I can remember, without me overly trying. But then, with everything else happening, basically, I purposely self-destructed things. I never became a typical "outcast", or acting out, or getting all psycho and breaking societal rules and stuff (well, there was that one time that I arse-mooned the teacher in grade 3, but that was a different story ). But, I just didn't try. I actually remember actively trying to not try. I stopped doing homework. I let myself get lazy. I found it super easy to get distracted and do other things, to vie away from schoolwork - the whole bored with school and schoolwork cliche. Because it bored me, yes, but more so because I learned how to play the game. See, the game is, is that parents/teachers/society have it built in to our societal norms that if someone is "gifted" or talented in a certain way, then it's their onus or responsibility or ethical duty to follow through on that gift/talent to benefit the society as a whole. Well....bullcrap. What about following through on a passion? What about doing what you like, which may not necessarily be the same thing as what you're gifted for? I mean, I was being pushed to be a lawyer, or academic professor, or judge, or doctor, the typical style of dreams that a parent/teachers put on a kid. It's what they, and what society, deem as high prestige jobs, jobs of high intellect and skill. Well, what if I wanted to be an actor? Or a race car driver? Or a garbage man? That's what I can say from my perspective - it's the overly raised expectations, and the intrinsic amount of the dreams of the parents and the teachers, that can weigh down a gifted kid. I didn't like it, so I rebelled. I played against the game. I flat out didn't do homework. When made to do it by my parents, I'd "lose" it on the way to school. I'd do other kids' homework with/for them, to make myself not stand out as much. Stuff like that. This continued right into highschool. I would skip classes, neglect homework, etc., etc. But through it all, I would just pass. I'd do no work throughout a whole semester for a given class, and I'd get to the end of that class with only a 40% overall or so, but then I'd ace an exam, something to just get the credit. I did this all through highschool, and then when it came time for college, I picked the opposite of everything that my parents wanted. I went into a "Theatre, technical arts" program at college. Just to get up to Toronto, to get the hell away from my small town, and do my own thing. I only did one year (and barely that) of the two year program, and then dropped out, just starting to live and work on my own. My parents begged me to come back home, that they'd help me get into a different school, etc. A few years later, my parents and I saw a bit more eye to eye. After about 5 years or so in the working world, I finally got a grasp on what I wanted to do, and went back to school. Went back to college, got my degree, honours diploma on the dean's list, etc. Funny thing is, I still did it with no notes relatively, no studying, etc. But, I did some homework, because it was my choice (not thrust on me), and something I cared about. I tried to stay middle of the pack, but I excelled in school this time around. Assignments or exams that I actually cared about and worked hard at, I'd get 98's or 100's. Some stuff when we'd sit down and do mock courtroom stuff with actual lawyers and judges and whatnot, I'd end up stumping them and winning debates - with, of course, some obvious questioning after of "why don't you become a lawyer/judge instead, rather than just a cop?" But, I continued to excel in what I wanted. Stuff that was hard for other people, I found easy. But I worked at it, because I wanted it. Colt said earlier that smart/gifted or not, common sense can still be an issue. So true. I had a police instructor at college that would say something similar - "We can teach you guys anything, except common sense." And THAT'S why I wanted and chose to be a cop - because there's a lot of power, authority, and danger in being a cop, and I trust myself in doing that, more so than some other people out there, because I have enough common sense to use my smarts in the right way to fulfill the job correctly. Even coming into my job now, and the aptitude testing that goes along with it, I was told that I'd be so much better suited for a "higher job", that I scored in the top 10% or so of even officer applicants, rather than just a "regular NCM". I was asked a number of times, why wasn't I willing to take an officer commission, to be a MARS officer or an intel officer, etc., to step into that - they'd gladly do the paperwork on that for me, etc., etc. It was only after that recruitment meeting that I was 100% in why I chose to be a cop. Because I do have a great mind, and I am gifted in certain aspects. I have an amazing natural retention for information, a great memory, etc. But, would I want to be a lawyer and help get sleazeballs out on a technicality? Would I want to be a doctor, or any other job? No. I realized that I WANT to be a cop. Because I have the brains for that, and because I WANT to do that, and not anything else. It's what interests me, everything else be damned. I know I can do a damn good job at it, and be trusted with the responsibility of it. So, since I want it, I'll excel at it. It's all the reason I need, and it's a good enough contribution to society, everything else be damned. My dad told me a few years ago that of the many sitdowns with my principal in gradeschool, one of the last ones stood out for him. I was in grade 8 or so, getting set to go into highschool (they made me go into the "Advanced" program, for gearing towards university and whatnot). My dad asked if there was anything else that could be done, to "help" me, to make me see my "mistake". My dad told me that years later. And the principal just said to him, "don't worry - the light will come on one day, and Keith will see that he's made for greatness, no matter what he does". My dad told me this a few years ago, after I went back to college, and got my dean's honours diploma and whatnot. My dad said that he's glad that I woke up, that it didn't take me too long, that he didn't know if I was gonna realize it in time. That whatever I did, they're pushing for me to be a lawyer or a teacher or whatever, that just because they didn't think of me being a cop as a kid, that they didn't want me to "waste my brain", that he realized something. That I needed to wake up. But that the principal was wrong - that it was him and my mom that needed to have the light come on. That whatever I'd do, I'd be great in doing it. I just needed support and freedom to make my own choice. I don't know if I'm "made for greatness". But I know I can be the best at whatever I push myself to do. That's all a "smart" kid wants - is to make their own choices, to have control, and not have everyone else pushing on them to fulfill outside wants.
CanuckSARTech Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 ....But I know I can be the best at whatever I push myself to do. That's all a "smart" kid wants - is to make their own choices, to have control, and not have everyone else pushing on them to fulfill outside wants. Okay. GOOD GAWD ALMIGHTY, that was a long arse post. Sorry everyone. But, as you can see, it's something that means a bit much to me. (Recounting some of this has been a bit cathartic tonight - I needed that, for me and for my relationship with my parents also.) Again, I hope I don't come off sounding conceited, or arrogant, or high on myself. That's not my intention, and not my meaning behind that post. I just want to illustrate to Montaigut that if you think your smart/talented kid is rebelling, back the hell off. I get it now - I'm a parent now too. True, not of the high-hopes scholastic parent -type yet, but still, I do get both sides now. It's the hardest thing you can do. But, if the kid is gonna fail, it'll be his doing. If he's gonna succeed, it was his choice. Don't get me wrong - you can't have an open door policy. If he decides he's going to pick a not-financially-viable option, and drop out, or waste money, etc., that you won't allow him to use you as a fall-back net. You don't want him moving back into the house as 22, and then 24, and then 27, then, 31, etc. But just let him know that you'll support him, but he also has to know that he'll be responsible for himself. If he/she doesn't agree/go along with your wishes, and wants to be responsible for themselves, then fine - but ensure they know they are fully responsible and accountable for themselves then, and hold them to task on that aspect. Push, encourage them along, but don't bear down too hard. I get it now. It's a hard balance to struggle to set. But just don't try to live vicariously by putting your personal hopes and dreams on the next generation. (Not trying to say you're doing that, but that's the feeling/impression that us kids get it seems). My fifty-million words of two cents. Sorry all....
cigcars Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 No no no, it's all good, Keith. Very happy to hear your input as always
TWalker Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 You don't sound conceited buddy, it's just a lot to read in one sitting LOL It's all good my friend.
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