HSA and the inconsistency of Cuban cigars

[cellinisart]

This topic is brought on from allot I'm reading lately from others (Ray and guy for example) on HSA and the direction they are heading. I have had many conversations here at my local cigar club about all the negative buzz running about Cuban cigars, then I was just reading a thread about PLPC and their inconsistency.

Taste is a matter of perception. Some guys love the LFD or LG double ligero stuff and say it's wonderful as where I think it tastes like an old ashtray or wet charcoal. Most of that is like the food you were raised with effects your taste for life. Guys who start on NC and get used to a taste that they are told is good tobacco tend to like them more in the long run. I have had some surprisingly good opus x (which needs at least 6-12 months of humi time IMO before smoking or they taste nasty like LG's) I've had good VSG's (again they need 12 months time and they come a completely different cigar).

I have met and smoked with a few great NC cigar makers Pete Johnson for one who absolutely loves Cuban tobacco (note I said tobacco not cigars). Ask any honest NC cigar maker and you will get the same response every time which is the truth. All NC cigars as a whole are a MUCH better made product BUT are rolled with an inferior raw material.

"Most Cuban cigars are made very poorly and rely on the nature of the tobacco to give you the good experience, but, if human faults get involved with said stick e.g. bad roller, leaf that wasn't fermented properly or from a factory that the master blender did a poor job or had nothing to work with when he was going through loose bales, possibly old beetle damage or a tobacco blend that should have been aged more before rolling, poor sorting etc etc."

Now any of those or usually a combination of all those things factor how good every stick you light will be. When there are that many bad links in the chain there will always be inconsistency. I also think that CC get too many excuses when a bad one is lit, oh it needs more age or it's too wet. IMHO probably 80% of the time it's just a bad habano.

As a hard working and good job our host and company do finding better boxes they can only work with what they are given. I have spent a significant amount on CC over the last several years buying stock from AU/UK/HK aged and fresh. I remember watching a video here on the 2003 des dieux. I ran out and bought 3 cabs from 02 and 03 (VERY expensive) each cab had perfect construction and a strong rich sweet aroma that I have never smelled before. After 6 months rest and drying the problem that I realized was that smell was not coming from all the sticks but maybe 10 or so (remember they are color matched from a huge factory and would be impossible for all 50 to be like that). In the end each cab had about 5 sticks that were drop dead incredible and out of those was one that was the best cigar I have ever had. It was intensely rich sweet and took me straight to heaven. The rest of the cabs were just ok or eh. I sold the last cab and I hope they experienced a few of what I did from them.

That was just one example of many I have had. These days I find myself happy with some OK but consistent NC's and just PC's for Cubans, no longer spending the big bucks for the other habanos and aged stock. Been there and done that and I am happy that I did. It made me a more informed smoker, but, when you spend that kind of money on 25/50 cigars to get 20% great and the rest either ok or bad. it doesn't make any sense to me to spend more than 130 bucks or so on a box. BTW I agree with piggy that a $75 box price point for PC's would be more justified.

I feel Cuban tobacco is the best in the world but HSA is far from where they should be.

In a perfect world Cuba would allow their farmers to sell to the highest bidder from any country. HSA would be gone within 5 years and you would see Rob wearing ashton shirts and hats doing his videos.

I think it would be the rebirth of cigars.

HSA pull your heads out

R

[headstand]

I'm in agreement: CC suck.

I will dispose of the toxic turds for you - free of charge

[cellinisart]

  On 9/27/2011 at 11:04 PM, Shlomo said:

While I agree that some older stock is often hit or miss, I have to say that of all the boxes I have from 2007 and later, they ALL perform well above 20% miss. Meaning that in a box of 25, maybe 1 or 2 cigars are not so great, and usually this is a problem with ambient humidity or something aside from the construction of the cigar or the taste of the leaf.

20% great, the rest are a mix of ok to bad. I run climate controlled and a few regular 6ft uprights. I am far from inexperienced in the ageing and humidity department.

[CaptainQuintero]

I think saying that HSA is one of the worst slave labour businesses in the World is a bit too much, they don't have safety nets around their buildings to stop their workers throwing themselves to death after making components for iPhones LINK , they are not boiling down circuit boards in acid in slums for the parts etc..

I think sometimes people can get carried away with trends, bashing HSA seems to be one at the moment. While they rightfully deserve it in some areas, and while construction issues is certainly a problem, I personally haven't found it to be so much of an issue that would cause me any great stress or drama. Certainly nothing which would make me want to switch to NC. I get the odd stick that is over or under filled but some days in life I also trip over or stub my toe on something. I don't decide that walking isn't what it used to be and decide rollerskate everywhere.

Cigars are an organic, high quality product that is also hand mande. Those two things by themselves are rare in life nowadays, combined they are even more rare. Having to throw away one or two sticks out of 25, is for me, a reasonably small price to pay for the quality of the majority of the product. In addition construction issues for me at least seem to have vastly improved over the last few years, rolling cigars better isn't something that can be fixed by writing better code or making a more efficient machine, it's an individual skill which takes time to improve. I think we have been seeing that improvement in the last few years.

I'm not going to talk about deletion as that's a completely different kettle of fish but, for me at least, construction issue seems to be a band wagon that people can jump on when they just want to bash on HSA for another reason (Deletions, RE programs etc) when in reality recent production (2008+) has improved vastly and I don't particularly have any anxiety over purchasing stock from 2008 onwards from good suppliers.

[BENN]

Well we all have different experiences, I hope I never see Rob in a Ashton shirt and the worst in my cc boxes still has more class than most ncs are capable to provide. More ccs for me

/ Ben Bockbrännarbolmers

[gigabyte056]

I smoke Cubans for the past 12 years.

I sometimes smoke NC, they are well constructed but lack taste and evolution.

The past 3 years or so I have seen a dramatic improvement in the construction and consistency of blends in the boxes I buy.

Granted, I don't go around buying from every WWW shop, just here and duty free shops when the price is right, and I do tend to stock up on certain brands.

I have some RyJ that are missing the love of HSA so I don't buy them anymore, Bolivar and Partagas deliver in spades as well as HDM.

I have read here about a box of Mag 46 that did not perform, that may be, I have 2 cabs one from 08 and one from 09 and both are fantastic, I will wait to hear about 2011 stock before buying some more.

Consider yourself lucky, you have access to good cigars and good people to give you the heads up if something is off.

[bacalao]

Been smoking NC since the age of twelve and my worst Cuban cigar was a way better smoking experience than any NC I've ever smoked. I agree with many of your points. And I would also be curious to see what a NC factory/roller would do with some high quality Cuban leaf. Probably just throw a maduro wrapper on everything and call it a limited that should blow it off the shelves.

[tempbond]

I"m still a beginner at cigar smoking, but I have to agree that overall NC construction is generally better than CC. It's pretty rare that I had a tight NC. On the other hand, I've had CC boxes where every damn cigar is just tight enough to be difficult to smoke(not impossible mind you) and that ruins the whole experience, where you have to fight with the cigar every time you puff on it ( not to mention the low volume of smoke produced because of it)

And don't say it's humidity : I keep my humi at around 61-63% !

For example, the other day I was having a RyJ sport largos and a Bolivar coronas junior, both tight to the point that I had to relight them 3 or 4 times each because I couldn't keep a steady draw for the tobacco to stay lit. I smoked maybe 2/3 of each, being fed up and not enjoying myself. So I ended up reaching for an Arturo Fuente gran reserva torpedo : the difference in draw was like breathing easily after spraying nasal decongestant when you have a cold : RELIEF ! Easy draw, ample smoke, enjoyable experience. Grant you it wasn't particularly amazing, but the lack of complexity was more than made up by the quality of construction.

And I hate that people say that when you have a great constructed CC, nothing else (NCs) can beat it. Well, I don't want to settle for accepting that not every cigar in a box will be great or at least good : when I put good money down for a product, I expect it to deliver !!!

Stupid analogy but usefull to make my point : what if sometimes when you buy a pack of chewing gum, a few of the pieces are so hard that they're really difficult to chew and so after 2 minutes, you spit it out because it's not worth it, even if the taste is good ? Would you still buy that brand of gum knowing that ?

Don't get me wrong, I love CCs, but I hate their inconsistency.

Another analogy, better one this time I think... : wine is different from year to year, some years being better than others, just like tobacco crops. But within the same year of production, almost all bottles have the same quality. I grant you that real wine drinkers taste of bit of it before accepting a bottle at a restaurant or something like that, but I don't think that it's common for a case of wine to have a few bottles (or the whole 12 bottles) that are not drinkable. People wouldn't accept that. So why do we put up with it for cigars ?

My 2 cents.

[goalie204]

All i'm going to say about cuban cigars, is the positives far outweigh any negatives.

[Rehman]

My sig reveals where I stand on NC/CC, so I won't get involved in any debate on that matter. However, right now I'm done with my CCs. The inconsistency I've suffered has been too much to bear. At these prices even a 10% dud rate is too high, let alone 20%-25%. And it's not just about the monetary cost, but the emotional. A cigar is anticipated with eagerness, often saved for a "special" moment; to ease a bad day or celebrate a good one. The disappointments, always difficult, have been for me of late intolerable. As someone who does enjoy certain NCs, I simply cannot fathom the contrast in consistency. Although they reside in different humidors, the consistency of my NCs makes me wonder how on earth Dominican, Nicaraguan and even Honduran makers manage such a feat when Cubans can't. Certainly, the reasons suggested by my learned brethren above go some way to explaining this situation - but they don't excuse it.

So I'm taking a break from my Habanos for a while. (And they'll probably be all the better for it.) My Dunhills, Avos and Fuentes will tide me over - and they're priced reasonably enough even at B&M retail hereabouts. No, I would never compare their flavours to Cubans - but there's more to the satisfaction of a cigar than just the flavours, and inconsistent construction renders even the finest flavours irrelevant.

[tempbond]

  On 9/29/2011 at 12:36 AM, Hovy said:

Improper humidity/storage has little to do with CCs' inconsistency and bad draw.

CCs are rolled by more than one torcedor, put in a big pile, sorted by wrapper color, "quality controlled" and then boxed. Your box of CC is potentially rolled by 2,3,5 or 10 different people; each with different skill, experience and expertise. Hence the higher variance in consistency. NCs are rolled by one torcedor, quality controlled and boxed. Hence the lower variance in consistency.

So why doesn't HSA do the same thing and have the same torcedore roll a whole box and be responsible for it's quality ? Who cares about wrapper colour if you (EDIT:meant to say CAN'T) can smoke the cigars ?

@Hovy : nice to see you post again, haven't seen you in a while.

[CanuckSARTech]

  On 9/29/2011 at 2:14 AM, tempbond said:

So why doesn't HSA do the same thing and have the same torcedore roll a whole box and be responsible for it's quality ? Who cares about wrapper colour if you can smoke the cigars ?

We've all been asking for something like this for YEARS. While month/year and factory/box code is nice, it'd also be beneficial to have a roller code introduced. That way, if you found a box that was absolutely pristine for you with draw and whatnot, you could search out the boxes of that particular roller, more beneficial than month or date.

They choose not to do it as it's not "the Cuban way". But lots have been asking for this exact same thing for ages, and it's something that's been mentioned from time to time by Rob and Ken in the review videos. Habanos S.A. just chooses not to listen.

[tempbond]

  On 9/29/2011 at 2:18 AM, CanuckSARTech said:

We've all been asking for something like this for YEARS. While month/year and factory/box code is nice, it'd also be beneficial to have a roller code introduced. That way, if you found a box that was absolutely pristine for you with draw and whatnot, you could search out the boxes of that particular roller, more beneficial than month or date.

They choose not to do it as it's not "the Cuban way". But lots have been asking for this exact same thing for ages, and it's something that's been mentioned from time to time by Rob and Ken in the review videos. Habanos S.A. just chooses not to listen.

I think the box code reflects the quality of management of a factory more than anything else, besides the year of production of course, which represents the quality of that year's tobacco crop more so than the torcedores' abilities at that particular moment. If you have a good manager who motivates and inspires his torcedores to up their rolling skills, than you're gonna get overall better quality cigars and boxes.

But since the same box code can represent a wide variety of different torcedores end product combinations, it is very possible for boxes with the same code to differ in quality.

The codes I would like to see would be those that represent the date of production, the torcedore and maybe even the tobacco blender. Then you could go to any marca or vitola and see if a particular combination of these 3 things is available.

Or HSA could just produce consistant cigars and just give us the year of the tobacco crop like wine has the year of harvest. Like wine, cigars aromas would vary a bit with the different crops, but the general flavor profile of a particular vitola would always be there.

We would never have to worry about cigar construction, just the taste ... utopia, I know !!!

[LeafLover]

Yesterday, I just bought my first box of NC's in three years. Tat Black Petite Lanceros. The few singles that I already had were great, no pluggies, tasted the same as the one previous.

I feel good about buying the box...not wondering if I was gonna get plugged cigars...not worrying if it will taste the same as the single that I tried previously.

I don't think CC's will ever fall out of favor for me because the taste of cuban tobacco is quite good. Frankly recent CC buying experiences (bad experiences specifically) have got me looking for happiness elsewhere.

Best of both worlds would be cuban tobacco rolled by non-cuban cigar companies.

[Wil]

  On 9/29/2011 at 4:36 AM, LeafLover said:

I don't think CC's will ever fall out of favor for me because the taste of cuban tobacco is quite good. Frankly recent CC buying experiences (bad experiences specifically) have got me looking for happiness elsewhere.

Fair call. Seems a lot of people feel the same way.

Unfortunately, Tatuaje doesn't seem to be available here in Aus.

[Cohiba Stevie]

Did I miss something? The OP says he was reading a post about aPLPCs and their inconsistency?

News to me.

[jedipastor]

I like both, will continue to smoke both since I have both But bad construction experiences with CCs is a turn-off for me as well, and has halted me in getting more for the time being. I will say the last 4 or so I've had have all been great, though.

[PigFish]

I am pleasantly surprised to see this thread written here. Not that it is consistent with a common theme of threads that I typically like to write, but because it contains thoughtful opinions and concerns about a shared passion that brings us all together here.

Needless to say I agree with a lot of what has been written. I have said the same in as many words on different threads in this forum. I strongly disagree with the sentiment that trashing H SA is trendy, appearing to condemn it to an unwarranted fad status. Tabacuba, H SA et al has taken a tobacco monopoly with zero competition and verges on destroying it. I think it has gone a long way to destroying the reputation of its product already. But you all know I think this way, I am sure.

I would like to gather some stray thoughts about Cuban cigars and cigar consistency for a moment. Not that I wish a stray vector from whom is responsible and why, it being trendy or not. But the question is consistency, so here goes.

Consistency can have a variety of applications as we discuss cigars. The only thing that I can say about Cuban cigars generally is that they are consistently inconsistent! This is inexcusable in my mind. Yet it is a paradox. I understand the hand made organic material argument... I have made it myself, but as stated, no one would endure this type of performance with any other products; in the eyes of H SA, luxury products especially. The paradox is in the interest and variety that the inconsistency creates! I will explain.

What can we do about consistency then, if anything at all. Depending on the crowd that I am addressing I too will discuss humidity. Water level is a common culprit for bitter, acrid, sour and bile tasting cigars. It is also responsible for poor drawing and burning issues. I have to agree with the general statement that water in cigars leads some to bad experiences. In many cases however, those are consistent experiences! If all or most of your cigars have these characteristics, you have wet cigars!!! I don't thing that acrid, bile tasting cigars are being discussed here, so I will move on!

What does consistency mean to you? That really is the hot point as I see it. Since I can't speak for any of the rest of you I can only tell you what it means to me. I see consistency on many levels. There is only one level that is really important to me, where the other aspects are secondary or tertiary.

Gentlemen... I am only interested in a great smoking experience! When I couple that with a reasonably priced cigar I get value. I am in constant search of the best smoking experience and attempting to get it at a better value.

There is a lot to say about the smoking experience. I recently met with a friend from the board to discuss and sample NC cigars and had a great experience... but that has nothing to do with smoking! To quote a certain county's president's trite words, "let me be clear;" the overall experience and the smoking experience are not to be confused by me. I see smoking on a specific plane, not to be commingled with a party or fun even with other smokers, paired with other items etcetera. When I speak of smoking experience, I am talking of me and my cigar!!! The overall experience might have been grand, but I can separate it from the smoking experience which may have been better or worse. I see them separately.

With a focus on the smoking experience is where I will bring up consistency and my involvement with this conversation. I don't care what I smoke, I don't care how well rated it was, how it was packaged, what brand it is, what country it comes from, what color the man or woman was that rolled it, what language they speak, whether they have visible nose hairs, or black toenails.... I only care if the cigar is good or not. I don't give a rats posterior about brands, or bands, boxes, hype, hysteria... all that matters is how it tastes!

I smoke on a consistently high level. This is not boasting I can assure you, but I cannot prove it to you... I don't have to. As I said, it is personal, it is between me and my cigars. While at that level, one that I consider rather lofty, I am still not satisfied. Why; because even at my level of smoking I get some average or bad cigars?

So how does this all benefit you? I will tell you. I have never been one to conceal my opinions, I am happy to share my experiences and knowledge to all that will read it or listen to it. This benefits you by your willingness to experiment with new cigars and your willingness to take the suggestions of others and beyond from those who are swayed by the hype and hysteria, the boxes and bands, the cost and looks, and all the things that have no effect at all on the taste experience of the cigar. I consider myself one such person.

You see I do believe that you can change your overall smoking experiences and get a better value. I do believe that you can up-average, or down-average your smoking experience through proper cigar selection. I do believe there are better and worse Cuban cigars and there are reasons that some are bette and some are worse. If you have read my previous diatribes... it has all been spelled out before in monotonous detail!

There are better and worse cigars in the catalogue. You have to search them out for yourself and find what you like and what you don't. I say don't be afraid to stock you humidor with 10 boxes of the same cigar if that cigar performs for you. You don't need to stock them all. If you want better cigars, buy and stock the better cigars and turn you back on the rest. That is what I do!

Lets talk a minute about the types of consistency because some here are talking aesthetics, mechanics, and taste. At the top of the list is the taste category. There are two sub categories here; one would be consistency of taste, one cigar to the next and the other would be the smoking experience. Now I have to reiterate something here. How well cigars profile; how one tastes compared to the other as far as similarity in taste is a grade of consistency. I don't give a **** about it either!!! I don't believe in cigar profiles. While I naturally tend to look for them, I don't rely on them or tend to factor them. The only thing I want is a great cigar. A great cigar can be pungent or mild, complex or monotonic, taste of almond or hazelnut, gasoline or axel grease for all I care, as long as each cigar as an individual blends to satisfy me as being a great smoking experience. I don't care if one sibling tastes like another. I only care that they are both good or great as individuals. So consistency as a matter of shared sibling characteristics is unimportant to me. Individual greatness is what I strive for.

Next is construction, mechanics and aesthetics. As mentioned the aesthetics of a NC cigar is superior. They are made to look beautiful. We are all ash anyway as I see it... and yes I do love a beautiful cigar but it is a tertiary interest to me. Mechanics however are important to the smoking experience. Well, I can't say I enjoy a plugged cigar either, but while you may try one of my cigars and call it plugged because of what you are used to, I may not consider it as such. Plugged, unless it is impossible to pass a draw is not plugged to me. I will give a cigar a hellofa fight if it is a good one. Many folks I know will just give up and trash it. The mechanics of a good cigar that is not totally plugged then is also a matter of opinion, one that does not cleanly pass the baton to the non-Cuban cigar.

I am not willing to say NC cigars are made better than CC's. It is a matter of likes and dislikes. NC cigars start and appear to be better made until they heat up. Once they heat up they often turn to mush. My stiff drawing CC's do not do that. And when they do, I toss them. NC cigars are notoriously under filled in my eyes and draw like straws. I rate a good draw as a moderately stiff draw. I find NC cigars notoriously under filled and I think they draw too easily.

So there you have it. Consistency covers many view points and if you are into covering them all you will be very disappointed by Cuban cigars. If you have a focus on a smoking experience, you once had a day when that was more easily focused on and satisfied. As the catalogue diminishes in choices so dose your ability to reach beyond the popular inconsistent garbage that H SA sells everyday. As I say, it is hard to be a Friend of Habanos when Habanos has un-friended you. I have been un-friended... Un-friended not by the cigars themselves that I have been able to taste, analyze and grade, but by the company who appears to not want me to have the great cigars that I smoke now, the ones that were once available in the not too distant past, but are not now. You see I don't think that Cuban cigars are great. I thing that some Cuban cigars are great, some are average and some are well below. I think as a product line they are inconsistent and poorly made. With that said, I do think you can have some say over your experiences by choosing carefully... but those choices are now disappearing fast. By choosing carefully you have an opportunity at the best cigars in the world. When you buy what is overproduced and trendy you generally get the worst!

Thanks for reading. -Piggy

[tempbond]

Great post to read Pigfish ! But I have to comment on a couple of things.

"There are two sub categories here; one would be consistency of taste, one cigar to the next and the other would be the smoking experience. Now I have to reiterate something here. How well cigars profile; how one tastes compared to the other as far as similarity in taste is a grade of consistency. I don't give a **** about it either!!! I don't believe in cigar profiles. While I naturally tend to look for them, I don't rely on them or tend to factor them. The only thing I want is a great cigar. A great cigar can be pungent or mild, complex or monotonic, taste of almond or hazelnut, gasoline or axel grease for all I care, as long as each cigar as an individual blends to satisfy me as being a great smoking experience. I don't care if one sibling tastes like another. I only care that they are both good or great as individuals. So consistency as a matter of shared sibling characteristics is unimportant to me. Individual greatness is what I strive for."

I understand and agree with that what matters to you is that the cigar you are smoking delivers a great smoking experience at one particular moment in time, which is a result of both taste and mechanics. But consistency for me has to mean that within a box, and hopefully across all boxes of a certain vitola, the taste is the same from one cigar to the other and also that the mechanics are generally the same. This goes to the core of why anyone buys a particular marca and vitola: you expect to find the same taste and more importantly, the same smoking experience each time you smoke that particular cigar. After all what makes a particular cigar what it is, is the blend of tobacco used and in what sequence along with how well it's put together. For example, if I spend money on a box of Siglo III, I expect that every cigar in that box tastes and smokes like a Siglo III. Even if all 25 cigars are good or even great, but no two cigars have the same taste, why am I buying Siglo IIIs in the first place? There could just be "25 great cigars - 42X155" stamped on the box. It's a bit like buying wine. For example, Bordeaux VS Bourgogne: both are good, but people buy one or the other because they like one better. The same with cigars: we buy all kinds of cigars (which sometimes can turn into an obcession...) because we want each kind to give a different smoking experience, depending on what we're in the mood for.

"Next is construction, mechanics and aesthetics. As mentioned the aesthetics of a NC cigar is superior. They are made to look beautiful. We are all ash anyway as I see it... and yes I do love a beautiful cigar but it is a tertiary interest to me. Mechanics however are important to the smoking experience. Well, I can't say I enjoy a plugged cigar either, but while you may try one of my cigars and call it plugged because of what you are used to, I may not consider it as such. Plugged, unless it is impossible to pass a draw is not plugged to me. I will give a cigar a hellofa fight if it is a good one. Many folks I know will just give up and trash it. The mechanics of a good cigar that is not totally plugged then is also a matter of opinion, one that does not cleanly pass the baton to the non-Cuban cigar."

For me, a cigar that has a difficult draw is almost the same as a plugged one : it ruins my smoking experience. Even if a cigar has a great taste, I'm really put off if it's too tight. What good is it if a cigar has a great taste if you can't taste it or can't taste enough of it? Again with a wine analogy : if you have a glass of a great wine but you have to drink it through a very fine straw, it wouldn't be a very good experience. And like having to relight a cigar a few times, if every 10 minutes or so you had to change straws because they would split and not work anymore, you'd get tired real fast of drinking that glass of wine and leave it on the table, just like letting a cigar die in the ashtray.

"I am not willing to say NC cigars are made better than CC's. It is a matter of likes and dislikes. NC cigars start and appear to be better made until they heat up. Once they heat up they often turn to mush. My stiff drawing CC's do not do that. And when they do, I toss them. NC cigars are notoriously under filled in my eyes and draw like straws. I rate a good draw as a moderately stiff draw. I find NC cigars notoriously under filled and I think they draw too easily."

I'd rather have a cigar that's too loose than too tight, at least you can smoke it, you just have to do it slowly, which for me is a lot less stressful then having to suck like a ShopVac...

[PigFish]

  On 9/30/2011 at 5:51 PM, tempbond said:

Great post to read Pigfish ! But I have to comment on a couple of things.

"There are two sub categories here; one would be consistency of taste, one cigar to the next and the other would be the smoking experience. Now I have to reiterate something here. How well cigars profile; how one tastes compared to the other as far as similarity in taste is a grade of consistency. I don't give a **** about it either!!! I don't believe in cigar profiles. While I naturally tend to look for them, I don't rely on them or tend to factor them. The only thing I want is a great cigar. A great cigar can be pungent or mild, complex or monotonic, taste of almond or hazelnut, gasoline or axel grease for all I care, as long as each cigar as an individual blends to satisfy me as being a great smoking experience. I don't care if one sibling tastes like another. I only care that they are both good or great as individuals. So consistency as a matter of shared sibling characteristics is unimportant to me. Individual greatness is what I strive for."

I understand and agree with that what matters to you is that the cigar you are smoking delivers a great smoking experience at one particular moment in time, which is a result of both taste and mechanics. But consistency for me has to mean that within a box, and hopefully across all boxes of a certain vitola, the taste is the same from one cigar to the other and also that the mechanics are generally the same. This goes to the core of why anyone buys a particular marca and vitola: you expect to find the same taste and more importantly, the same smoking experience each time you smoke that particular cigar. After all what makes a particular cigar what it is, is the blend of tobacco used and in what sequence along with how well it's put together. For example, if I spend money on a box of Siglo III, I expect that every cigar in that box tastes and smokes like a Siglo III. Even if all 25 cigars are good or even great, but no two cigars have the same taste, why am I buying Siglo IIIs in the first place? There could just be "25 great cigars - 42X155" stamped on the box. It's a bit like buying wine. For example, Bordeaux VS Bourgogne: both are good, but people buy one or the other because they like one better. The same with cigars: we buy all kinds of cigars (which sometimes can turn into an obcession...) because we want each kind to give a different smoking experience, depending on what we're in the mood for.

"Next is construction, mechanics and aesthetics. As mentioned the aesthetics of a NC cigar is superior. They are made to look beautiful. We are all ash anyway as I see it... and yes I do love a beautiful cigar but it is a tertiary interest to me. Mechanics however are important to the smoking experience. Well, I can't say I enjoy a plugged cigar either, but while you may try one of my cigars and call it plugged because of what you are used to, I may not consider it as such. Plugged, unless it is impossible to pass a draw is not plugged to me. I will give a cigar a hellofa fight if it is a good one. Many folks I know will just give up and trash it. The mechanics of a good cigar that is not totally plugged then is also a matter of opinion, one that does not cleanly pass the baton to the non-Cuban cigar."

For me, a cigar that has a difficult draw is almost the same as a plugged one : it ruins my smoking experience. Even if a cigar has a great taste, I'm really put off if it's too tight. What good is it if a cigar has a great taste if you can't taste it or can't taste enough of it? Again with a wine analogy : if you have a glass of a great wine but you have to drink it through a very fine straw, it wouldn't be a very good experience. And like having to relight a cigar a few times, if every 10 minutes or so you had to change straws because they would split and not work anymore, you'd get tired real fast of drinking that glass of wine and leave it on the table, just like letting a cigar die in the ashtray.

"I am not willing to say NC cigars are made better than CC's. It is a matter of likes and dislikes. NC cigars start and appear to be better made until they heat up. Once they heat up they often turn to mush. My stiff drawing CC's do not do that. And when they do, I toss them. NC cigars are notoriously under filled in my eyes and draw like straws. I rate a good draw as a moderately stiff draw. I find NC cigars notoriously under filled and I think they draw too easily."

I'd rather have a cigar that's too loose than too tight, at least you can smoke it, you just have to do it slowly, which for me is a lot less stressful then having to suck like a ShopVac...

The only exceptions that I have with your statement is personal opinion and preference of course, but that you make the statement "the core of why anyone..." Your statement is logical but not accurate. Neither of us can speak for anyone, meaning all of us. I have found this "core," this profile, this similarity to be the root of my frustration with Cuban cigars, before concluding that cigar profiles do not exist. I am the exception to the "core" I guess, I may be the only one, but I have found a "work around" for me, and possibly for people like me. For me labeling the box of a nationalized cigar company 7x47 is roughly what you get when you buy the overproduced crap that H SA et al typically sells. You may see a brand and brand characteristics. I don't see it that way. I believe by the way that you likely speak for the majority of smokers, I will grant that.

I am not offering solutions to Cuban cigar problems. I am offering a mindset that has improved my smoking experience. I can't say that the mindset is mainstream or useful to others. I can only offer it as the solution that it has been for me.

Great conversation mate. Thanks for sharing your opinion. -Ray

[tempbond]

  On 9/30/2011 at 7:05 PM, PigFish said:

The only exceptions that I have with your statement is personal opinion and preference of course, but that you make the statement "the core of why anyone..." Your statement is logical but not accurate. Neither of us can speak for anyone, meaning all of us. I have found this "core," this profile, this similarity to be the root of my frustration with Cuban cigars, before concluding that cigar profiles do not exist. I am the exception to the "core" I guess, I may be the only one, but I have found a "work around" for me, and possibly for people like me. For me labeling the box of a nationalized cigar company 7x47 is roughly what you get when you buy the overproduced crap that H SA et al typically sells. You may see a brand and brand characteristics. I don't see it that way. I believe by the way that you likely speak for the majority of smokers, I will grant that.

I am not offering solutions to Cuban cigar problems. I am offering a mindset that has improved my smoking experience. I can't say that the mindset is mainstream or useful to others. I can only offer it as the solution that it has been for me.

Great conversation mate. Thanks for sharing your opinion. -Ray

I also very much enjoyed our discussion. You may be right about "the core of anyone" : I cannot speak for everyone, but I do think that this is what people in general expect when they purchase cigars or anything else for that matter, that the brand counts for something. This is why people pay a wide range of prices for basically the same product.

But I do agree with you that the more I try different cigars, generally the less I see a difference in taste between many of them. Granted I'm still a bit of a newb and my palate might not be very developped yet, but CCs in general have less "range" than NCs. Of course even if some NCs taste so strong it's like you're smoking a tar infused stick, they do have a wider array of flavours, from the very bland to the extra spicy. Why can't we have that diversity in CCs ?

Still, I'm glad that you're able to enjoy CCs, albeit "one stick at a time". I'm enjoying them too, but I've opened my mind to finding great NC that are consistant...

Good night Ray,

Sébastien

[riazp]

  On 10/1/2011 at 1:36 AM, tempbond said:

But I do agree with you that the more I try different cigars, generally the less I see a difference in taste between many of them. Granted I'm still a bit of a newb and my palate might not be very developped yet, but CCs in general have less "range" than NCs. Of course even if some NCs taste so strong it's like you're smoking a tar infused stick, they do have a wider array of flavours, from the very bland to the extra spicy. Why can't we have that diversity in CCs ?

Seb,

I tend to dissagree with you on this statement, and if i've misunderstood you, I apologize. I personally see it the other way, A CC will have deferente flavors develop throughout the cigar, may start spicy, then will develope other flavors like cream, or chocolate or espresso and the last third will once again develop new flavors. My Experience with NC's is that, yes i've have some very nice ones with nice flavors, but I just dont get the complexity and flavor range that I get from a CC. Brickhouse, which I enjoyed, was a very nice tasting cigar, but tasted the same from start to finish...I never got any changeup from it, and from many other NC's too. The only NC where I got a variety of flavors is the My Father line by Pepin...

Great topic guys, exellent thoughts.

[tempbond]

  On 10/1/2011 at 4:45 AM, riazp said:

Seb,

I tend to dissagree with you on this statement, and if i've misunderstood you, I apologize. I personally see it the other way, A CC will have deferente flavors develop throughout the cigar, may start spicy, then will develope other flavors like cream, or chocolate or espresso and the last third will once again develop new flavors. My Experience with NC's is that, yes i've have some very nice ones with nice flavors, but I just dont get the complexity and flavor range that I get from a CC. Brickhouse, which I enjoyed, was a very nice tasting cigar, but tasted the same from start to finish...I never got any changeup from it, and from many other NC's too. The only NC where I got a variety of flavors is the My Father line by Pepin...

Great topic guys, exellent thoughts.

I do agree with you that CCs have a flavor progression from the start to nub which NCs do not have or as you said, very rarely, but I was talking about the range of different flavors between different cigars which NCs have, that have CCs beat hands down.

I know Partagas or Vegas Robaina have stronger flavours than Romeo y Julieta for example, but the difference between those and, let's say for argument's sake, a CAO MX2 and a Nub Connecticut, is insignificant.

That's what I'd like to see in CCs: a real, clearly indentifiable difference between different marcas, or at least more than there is now. An I know you and probably a lot of other FOHers will say that there IS a difference between marcas: I know I see and taste it too, but I'd like to see more of it.

But in the end, I'd just like for HSA to produce well made cigars all the time, not just in certain box codes...and I'd gladly give up for the rest. Sounds pretty sad doesn't it ?