Usama Bin Landen Dead

[Ken Gargett]

My opinions are at times offensive. I am not apologetic for what I believe but sometimes I say too much and offend people by saying it.

Stating my opinions, at times offends on lookers and friends. For that I am sorry. If you consider yourself one of the above, on looker or friend and have been offended by my rhetoric or reason, please accept my apology. I don't mind being the site curmudgeon but resident ******* is not my goal.

-Ray

as discussed elsewhere. we are fine. no probs. i think we might have been on crossed wires.

[gigabyte056]

I think this entire thread should be moved to the classic posts.

"What we've got here is a failure to communicate"

politics will do that to you, better leave it at that.

[BobKincaid]

"I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.†Mark Twain

Turns out that quote actually comes from Clarence Darrow.

Applicable regardless of origin.

[BobKincaid]

Now, of course, a week later, we know things were much different from the way they were initially related. My country has a problem with this sort of thing. The wholly fictional early account of the story of Jessica Lynch comes to mind. Remember her? The Bush Administration painted a picture of Jessica-as-John-Wayne blasting away ti the last bullet and fending off demonic Iraqi soldiers with the butt of her weapon and then her bare hands. The real story was wildly different to the point of rendering the original story an utter falsehood.

Then there's Pat Tilman, whose death was lionized until it turned out he'd been a victim of fratricide. Then the coverups started, involving brass all the way to the top.

It comes as no surprise, then, to note that what was initially billed as a daring, shootout-at-the-OK-corral turned out to be much more like the killing of Sonny Corelone from "The Godfather." Our troops blew away a man and his wife who fired on them and then proceeded into the building, where they encountered no one capable of shooting back. They killed OBL's 19 y/o son, unarmed. They shot OBL's wife in the leg and then put one in the chest and one in the head of OBL himself.

Lest anyone mistake my position, let me say clearly that I'm OK with taking out OBL. He died unarmed and undefended just as his victims did. That an unarmed man could easily have been tasered or pepper-sprayed and brought back to actually receive justice (as opposed to vendetta) is beside the point.

[CoryOllis]

I think this entire thread should be moved to the classic posts.

Then we should balance it a bit. Linky

[frenchkiwi]

Then we should balance it a bit. Linky

Yup, I'd heard the Bin Laden "already dead in 2001" story, even from the US govt e.g. Rumsfeld in 2001

The point is, it suited them and Pakistan and others to believe/say he was dead, Rumsfeld wanted to show his surgical strikes had won the day, Pakistan wanted the US to help out without getting overly involved etc.

Then when the neocons decided they wanted to take on the world it suited them to hunt Bin Laden again, he was a good bogeyman for Bush come election time. And now he's a good news story for Obama.

So whether he died in 2001 or lived on in hiding as a non-entity, the point is well made by this quote from a 2002 NY Times article

NY Times column 2002

"Mr. bin Laden could survive and prosper only in a world in which these elements existed. That world is gone. Mr. bin Laden's ghost may linger on -- perhaps because Washington and Islamabad will find it useful."

Bogeymen are very useful for politicians all over the world. If they can't find one they will happily fabricate one. Who knows, a future president might even resurrect Bin Laden!

[Ken Gargett]

Then there's Pat Tilman, whose death was lionized until it turned out he'd been a victim of fratricide. Then the coverups started, involving brass all the way to the top.

i remember both lynch and tilman.

but forgive me if i have this wrong - i thought tilman was simply accidental friendly fire? clearly i missed something. he was shot by his brother? is that really true?

and it was inevitable the details down the track re the obl shooting would 'vary'. i have no problem with him dead, though i can see the advantages in many ways of capture and trial. and also disadvantages. rock and a hard place.

[Fuzz AI]

but forgive me if i have this wrong - i thought tilman was simply accidental friendly fire? clearly i missed something. he was shot by his brother? is that really true?

I believe in Tillman's case, fratricide is taken to mean by his brother's in arms. There is some controversy surrounding the type of wounds he received (the rounds fired were well placed and from close distance), and that his armour and journal were burned to hide evidence. Rumours are that his stance on the war may have been the reason for some REMFs to sanction his death by "friendly fire".

[BobKincaid]

I believe in Tillman's case, fratricide is taken to mean by his brother's in arms. There is some controversy surrounding the type of wounds he received (the rounds fired were well placed and from close distance), and that his armour and journal were burned to hide evidence. Rumours are that his stance on the war may have been the reason for some REMFs to sanction his death by "friendly fire".

Correct. I used "fratricide" as denoting death occasioned by one's brothers-in-arms.

Mr. Tilman's family is still pursuing justice and trying to see that those who covered up the whole debacle do receive justice. The brass who had a hand in the cover-up read like a who's-who of our leadership, including, but not limited to General Stanley McChrystal.