cork or screwcap?

[Ken Gargett]

in one of the vid threads, members started to discuss cork or screwcap. was wondering if members had a preference and the reasons for it.

[maalouly]

Screwcap, easier to store but there is something about a cork that makes the experience of opening the bottle more enjoyable.

[Colt45]

Cork, as it is part of the intelligent design of nature, bestowed upon us as are all things here on earth, by the hands of the great and powerful one

who reigns high above in heaven.

[laficion]

Cork, as it is part of the intelligent design of nature, bestowed upon us as are all things here on earth, by the hands of the great and powerful one

who reigns high above in heaven.

Amen Ross, why don't we smoke germ free cigars untouched by human hands ?

i'm sure the cigars will taste better without the negative side of 130 hands touching them,

plus, we can put the sticks in plastic boxes so that way we won't have any wood mites ETC ETC

You don't light up a cigar like you rush to light up a cigarette.

You don't open up a great wine bottle like you pop off the cap of a coke.

[Ken Gargett]

Amen Ross, why don't we smoke germ free cigars untouched by human hands ?

i'm sure the cigars will taste better without the negative side of 130 hands touching them,

plus, we can put the sticks in plastic boxes so that way we won't have any wood mites ETC ETC

You don't light up a cigar like you rush to light up a cigarette.

You don't open up a great wine bottle like you pop off the cap of a coke.

as you might have gathered, i'm completely of the opposite view for many reasons and will elaborate more later - have to bolt to lunch. by coincidence, and i'd planned this long before this thread, one of the wines i'm taking is the 1998 richmond grove riesling which was the first commercial wine under screwcap since we dabbled 20 years earlier. have several other rieslings, some cork and some screwcap, so will report back. objectively.

[BeeStinga]

Screwcap, easier to store but there is something about a cork that makes the experience of opening the bottle more enjoyable.

I agree. I am warming to screw tops alot more these days, especially for daily drinkers. Alot of the cork produced of recent years has much to be desired, there is a fair bit of variation between good and poor corks. Screw caps tend to be very consistent.

But IMO a good wine laid down to age has more charm with a real cork. I hear some good things about screw caps on aged bottles though. At the end of the day if you open a 'good' aged bottle of wine and it is 'corked' and you can't drink it that is a waste of the energy and care that went into bringing this to the glass. I think screw caps may make this let down a thing of the past.

I also tend to prefer the plastic type cork tops found on some rum bottles (like Ron Matusalem etc), this tends to seal much better than real cork for spirits.

[laficion]

so will report back. objectively.

Would be great Ken, objectively would be fun too

[Colt45]

objectively would be fun too

it would also be a first...........

[sloth]

I'm not a wine drinker but i remember hearing the plastic corks had a problem with shrinkage and that is why screw tops are being used.

i will say i don't respect beer that have a twist off cap... although the beer i tend to enjoy the most don't ever end up in bottles. (home brewed)

[JMH]

My heart says cork, my head says screw cap. Ken, would you say that the cork the aus wineries get is of a lower quality than the stuff the larger producers like the french can get their hands on? It certainly seems that way to me (from my limited experience that is).

[Trevor2118]

as you might have gathered, I'm completely of the opposite view for many reasons and will elaborate more later - have to bolt to lunch. by coincidence, and I'd planned this long before this thread, one of the wines I'm taking is the 1998 Richmond grove riesling which was the first commercial wine under screwcap since we dabbled 20 years earlier. have several other rieslings, some cork and some screwcap, so will report back. objectively.

Ken,

I am in favor of the screw cap.

I age my good reds a minimum of 10 years, and I have had too many problems with cork removal from older bottles (crumbling). For the more expensive and older bottles I now use a gas cork ejector (don't know the actual name of it....you puncher the cork with the needle, then hit the button and the cork pops out in a single piece).

However, I have had very few "corked" bottles.....I may just be lucky.....but I probably don't drink as much as you.

[samb]

I like the tradition and look of the cork, but logic leans to the screw cap..... Looking forward to Ken's objective report...

[khomeinist]

Cork all the way. I am not an expert on this, but I suspect that cork is better for promoting the various aging processes. Not 100% impermeable or some such....

[Fuzz]

I have always been a fan of the cork. There just something about the whole experience. Though I can see the benefits of screwcap, especially with white wines.

Too many times have I been troubled with cork taint from a bottle of white. Luckily I've never had that problem with any of my reds.

And as for those plastic corks, I've found that the wine tends to leak.

[sandholm]

Ken asked me to post this here,

Actually a lot of premium wine (all over the world) is now starting to use screw or cap cork (think big bear bottle), even wine makers as Chateau Petrus have testing screw corks for a long time (just not selling it, they want to know that it can preserve the wine before they start selling it, and the screw cork match regular cork when it comes to storage, I personal have blind tested Petrus from cork bottle and screw cork bottle and you cant tell the difference.). This because the cork is actually really bad for the wine, when the cork is cleaned chlorine is used, with enter the cork and when this react with the wine it can produce something called 2,4,6-trichloroanisole (or TCA) which taste really bad (aka corked wine). Now if a screw cork is used, your remove the “cork” and therefore you remove the problem.

I remember that I have read that around 40% of all bottles have traceable signs of TCA (and this is not healthy for you…) and around 10% is so corked so you cant drink it. A lot of wine makers pour out rather big quantities of wine due to TCA and this wine where perfect when it was poured onto the bottle. If we take the discussion over to the cigar would it would be like say 3 cigars out of every box would be unsmokeable due to the band or that the box is just badly chosen. What do you prefer, 25 good cigars or 22 good cigars and a fancy box?

Personal I remember my first bottle of Petrus, which I bought to my 30-year birthday dinner. I opened the first one and it was stinking as hell (pour it out), second: better but still very very corked (had to pour it out, now i was ready to cry), third on: perfect. If that wine had been placed on screw or caps that would never have happened, all three would have been perfect.

Now i like the look of the cork bottle, i love to use a Co2 bottle opener, but I hate corked wine, and for me wine is produced to be drank among friends (and ok I am a bit of a collector) and according me the wine producer has to ensure that they sell me a product that is good as they can make it. Including both how it taste to how its can handle storage. Therefore I am a fan of the screw cork over the “cork” cork, because its not the cork that matters, IT’S THE WINE. Winery that will hold on to the “cork” cork longest are winery that don’t care about there customers (and there are plenty of these wine markers) or middle/low end winery that have money invested in bottles/cork or machinery, the premium will all leave the cork world behind when they are sure that the screw cork can match the cork (and it does). There will be wine snobs that will preach that nothing can beat the cork, well, they can have it, i don’t care about the packaging, what is important is the quality of the wine, not the label. It would be like saying you don’t smoke cohiba because you dont like the band or the box (then we are talking about image and not about enjoying the leafs underneath the band).

On the other hand, my worst wine and food experience ever (and I mean ever, over-boiled, over-salty, messy, no passion, no love) where when i visited Toulouse/Carcassonne/Narbonne during 4 days of travel we had 1 good meal (and yes we went to good restaurants..), but we saw a huge amount of people drinking wine from cans (even in restaurants they were selling them)!!!!

So maybe I am a wine snob, because I would never drink wine from a can.

For me it’s the product that is inside the bottle, not whats located on top of the bottle, I say give me the best product, just don’t give me corked wine.

[El Presidente]

When I am eating a seared Tuna Steak or a mammal I have just shot, I want it accompanied by a wine truly representative of the wine maker and grape....not of poor cork.

I am a screwcap convert.

[Ryan]

This may sound idiotic but why not boxed wine?

It's airtight, keeps the light out, less fragile, lighter and more easily stacked packaging.

As the wine is poured the bag shrinks, very little oxygen gets in so the wine keeps longer once opened.

To answer my own question, I think they're unpopular for the same reason as screw-caps and plastic corks.

[sandholm]

This may sound idiotic but why not boxed wine?

It's airtight, keeps the light out, less fragile, lighter and more easily stacked packaging.

As the wine is poured the bag shrinks, very little oxygen gets in so the wine keeps longer once opened.

To answer my own question, I think they're unpopular for the same reason as screw-caps and plastic corks.

Well, bag in box is a good concept, problem is France (which is the major producer) a lot of bag in box has huge quantity of sulfite added to them, which is a shame. If the majority of wine producer could just reduce there sulfite use it could be really good. US is really good here, they introduced a law saying that if the bottled contain 1/100 000 of sulfite they have to put a sticker on. In 2005 EU introduced the same law, problem is that its not followed and a lot of winery (mid/low end) add a lot but never put the sticker on....

Now, BIB would be a sucess if the producer could start treating there products with respect, pour good wine on them and just accept that they wont last 3 weeks (dont add huge quantity of sulfite) but as you say, its wine snobbery "No my wine is to good to go on anything else then a bottle". I think the major problem is that regional people drink the regional wine and praise it, just because its from the region, and not because its good, therefore the producer sell there product and they dont have to think about quality or produce a good product.

Back to the bag-in-box, the concept is great, one glass and no oxygen enter the package. The problem is that oxygen do enter a tiny bit, and therefore sulfite is added (which "eat" the oxygen). Some people really love to bring bag-in-box to picknick and BBQ (I am original Swedish, and bag-in-box is huge there) but i just use one of these

http://www.basket-ware.co.uk/shop/catalog/images/wb001-3.jpg

Ken do you know how the usage of Sulfite is in Australia? My knowledge of Australian wine is very limited, but I have had some excellent red, Shiraz, Merlot and Pinot Noir. (what was the red sparkling that you once drank during a cigar review?)

[thechenman]

I too see the move toward screw caps as being progress, but I still prefer the corks for aethetic purposes. There is just something about the sound of the cork being removed that makes the bottel more enjoyable. Corked wine, plugged cigars...it happens.

[android]

Just pour the booze man!

[Colt45]

When I am eating a seared Tuna Steak or a mammal I have just shot, I want it accompanied by a wine truly representative of the wine maker and grape

Just as the creator intended it.....

[sandholm]

I too see the move toward screw caps as being progress, but I still prefer the corks for aethetic purposes. There is just something about the sound of the cork being removed that makes the bottel more enjoyable. Corked wine, plugged cigars...it happens.

So you would prefere 3 plugged cigars (not due to production factors) but just because they are packaged in a nice black box? Or would you prefere all cigars to be perfect but they come in a pink ceder box with smithys face painted on it...

[laficion]

Ken, sorry for the delay but I'm coming and going from my home because of festivities

here in the village. I thank you for starting this thread however, I think that it'll be fun.

OK, lets get back to the subject,

Ken, first off, I still have to see where a cap vs cork has proven that it evolves and ages

just as well as a cork of a 54mm type.

But the question here is, do you want to taste a wine that has kept all of it's freshness of

prime youth or do you want to let it evolve normally with a cork at the risk of having a

" corked " bottle ?

For my part, I am for a cap for all the wines that were meant to be drank young, because

they were made for that purpose and whatever their color. On the other hand, I'm for a

cork when it comes to wines that deserve evolving because they originate from old vines

which have a higher concentration or matured in barrique and also on the strength of the

Millesime.

Not allowing certain wines to evolve normally is like drinking "Monsanto ", ask starbuck

[sandholm]

But the question here is, do you want to taste a wine that has kept all of it's freshness of

prime youth or do you want to let it evolve normally with a cork at the risk of having a

" corked " bottle ?

Just to be fair, before the British (yes, they actually invented the cork... or the oldest corked wine bottles are from there...) thousands of years wine were stored in clay jars with a layer of olive oil on top... so if anything that should probably be considered "normal", not glass bottles?

For my part, I am for a cap for all the wines that were meant to be drank young, because

they were made for that purpose and whatever their color. On the other hand, I'm for a

cork when it comes to wines that deserve evolving because they originate from old vines

which have a higher cocentration or matured in barrique and also on the strength of the

Millesime.

Well, when it comes to the barrel I agree, it has a huge impact, cork or no cork, nothing. The cork give no taste (exept TCA ) this has been proven over and over again (also with the plastic corks, hate thous). Some people claim that the wine has to "breath" through the cork, this is also BS, actually the glass bottle "breath" more then the cork.

I am also curries why a bottle has to have cork just because we will age it? What does the cork bring to the wine?

What do you mean with he strength of Millesime? That vintage wine would evolve better with cork?

Cork has served us good, yes, and with the material and technology that existed cork where the best logical material. Now lets use the new technology (that we already use in wine making, like computerized temperature/acid/sugar sensors and so on) to produce a better wine, with less defect.

Just my two cents.

[khomeinist]

Lots of spurious arguments in this thread.

The 'natural' and/or aesthetic arguments are not particularly interesting to me. What is of interest is the issue of biochemistry. It only takes about 15 minutes of research to realize that the biochemical issue (i.e. what happens in the bottle post-capping/corking) is FAR from resolved. This is a contentious issue. Low levels of oxygen appear to be beneficial for certain wines, and less so for some others.

I am initially inclined to agree with Guy. For wines designed to age 30+ years, I am going for a case with natural corks. If I lose a bottle (in line with industry estimates) I will be happy enough. I would hypothesize (that is all we are doing after all.... I don't think Sandholm has a laboratory in his basement) that the best individual bottles of wine sampled from competing cases of corked and capped wines will come from the corked cases. In other words, the variability might be greater in corked wines but the best wines will also come from corked cases.

Anyway. It is an easy enough experiment. You are all going to be here in 30 years for the results? 10 cases of each treatment. Different kinds of caps to be tested? Which wine should we settle on?

I jest. But to show that this is NOT resolved and will require years of further research.

Take your shots. Lol.