What's The Real Difference?

[Colt45]

First off, it's not my intention to start another CC vs. NC debate - it truly isn't.

I had time today, and decided to smoke one of my few remaining NCs. Without going into details, I was once again reminded of what I perceive as the

chasm between Havanas and cigars from other areas. But what I really started to think about was the tobacco itself - why do I perceive such a difference

in overall flavor qualities?

We all know soil composition, sun, air - the climates and micro climates within. As I often do, I tried to correlate it with wine. If we gave a single vintner

cabernet grapes from country x, and cabernet grapes from country y, and they vinified both batches in relatively the same way, would the difference be

that drastic? I thought to myself perhaps not, but I obviously can't know for sure. (given the grapes were of similar quality - ripeness, etc)

So back to tobacco, what if anything else could it be? Can terroir by itself be cause for such a drastic difference (as I perceive it)? Differences in processing?

Other types of super secret production methods? I don't know if this makes much sense, and it's kind of just thinking out loud,

but I wonder......

[bunburyist]

well, I suppose you can discount production methods, as those employed in Nicaragua, Honduras and the DR will be close to if not identical to those in Cuba.

I'm guessing the seed / plant can and has been succesfully taken out of Cuba and planted elsewhere as well, so the tobacco must start off the same.

Which just leaves terroir/climate as you say, and of course perception. Maybe we're all delusional, but it's unlikely.

It does seem remarkable though that its just down to vuelta abajo tobacco being different and better to anywhere else on the planet. I can't think of any other product - animal or vegetable - that is so superior in such an acute region.

Interesting.

[bunburyist]

thinking about it, perhaps it's due to the nature of cigars themselves.

Maybe the difference is no greater than say French and Chilean wine, but the difference being a not so great Chilean red can still be quite drinkable.

A not so good cigar makes you want to chuck it, and can actually be very unpleasant. Perhaps that accounts for the 'chasm' we seem to see.

[Colt45]

thinking about it, perhaps it's due to the nature of cigars themselves.

Yes - I often think a direct comparison between wine and cigars is not entirely fair. Grapes are pressed and vinified in bulk - in essence all becoming one.

Tobacco, while processed, essentially retains it's form, each leaf an "individual".

I agree as well with the second part. Malbec, let's say, from two different areas while perhaps somewhat different, might retain similar qualities - both being

enjoyable in their own right.

[cellinisart]

I think the soil means everything. This is evident in taste differences of vegetables grown from one side of the country to the other.

[El Presidente]

I was graciously gifted a Perdomo Robusto on Tuesday evening. I can't recall the exact name of it but it was the full bodied line...and full it was.

Construction, draw, burn was perfect. It was robust from the get go, full bodied with a serious ligero and nicotine kick which it kept right to the very end. After a long day it was an enjoyable cigar. If I was ranking it (and that was not the purpose of the exercise) then I would give it an 86.

Now I have had plenty of Cuban Robusto's that have ranked 86. Plenty that have ranked well under.

The difference between Cuban Robusto's......lets take a D4... is

1. There is a complexity to the run of the mill average ones. They may still burn bad or the draw may be not perfect (tad too loose, tad too tight) but there is a definite complexity and subtle variation to the flavour as you smoke it.

2. I have had 94 ranked D4's. Not often but I have had D4's which have pushed the edge of Cigar perfection. I doubt I could get that with the Perdomo Robusto.

3. I have had 84 ranked D4's. Not many but such a disappointment because I have experienced the Nirvana of great ones.

As Jimmy would say...."IT MUST BE THE SOIL!"

Some of the best blenders, rollers, factory managers have left Cuba for Central and South America. They have taken their years of experience and almost to a man they have never replicated Cuban cigars at their best. Most have not even come close.

[ATGroom]

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9824206

It's the bacteria.

[El Presidente]

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9824206

It's the bacteria.

The article lost me Alex in the first section...."The Religious care" taken to ensure perfection

[Colt45]

I think the soil means everything. This is evident in taste differences of vegetables grown from one side of the country to the other.

I understand it plays a great part, as do elevation, sun exposure, prevailing winds, etc. I guess it just hit me that I think perhaps things should

be more similar than I feel they are.

Some of the best blenders, rollers, factory managers have left Cuba for Central and South America. They have taken their years of experience and almost to a man they have never replicated Cuban cigars at their best. Most have not even come close.

This also plays into what I'm trying to express. With all the climate similarities, and blending of various tobaccos, one could think the similarities

might outweigh the differences.

[Kangaroo495]

1. There is a complexity to the run of the mill average ones. They may still burn bad or the draw may be not perfect (tad too loose, tad too tight) but there is a definite complexity and subtle variation to the flavour as you smoke it.

As Jimmy would say...."IT MUST BE THE SOIL!"

So where does this complexity come from? Why can't it be repeated? Are we in agreement, that it's simply the soil?

[bolivr]

El Pres has put in a nutshell what I struggle to say as it is my experience too.

Besides the soil being unique and to a lesser extent climate, prevailing winds etc, is there anything in the pre-fermentaton process or post fermentation?

I want to chase this but I kind of don't want us to solve the mystery either...

[Stalebread]

If (and this is a big "if") someone really liked and preferred, say, Nicagraguan tobacco to all other tobacco, could that person make the same case for it that you are making for Cuban tobacco?

[cigarros]

I think the soil means everything. This is evident in taste differences of vegetables grown from one side of the country to the other.

Thousand times I am assured that it exclusively features of the Cuban soil.

As it is known, in the beginning of 20 centuries the American geologists took samples of soils Pinar del Rio and did the analysis. They wished to reproduce the same tobacco on quality in other region outside Cuba.

Uniqueness of the Cuban soils consists that they multilayered. The special role is carried out by quartz sand and layers of blue clay. The root system of tobacco passes through all layers and receives a unique set of microelements which concentrate in leaves. We it also calls - real taste of the Havanas. The special role is played by derivatives of potash and others unique elements which are in soils.

It's faster from metaphysics area. So the Lord has wanted...

[El Presidente]

If (and this is a big "if") someone really liked and preferred, say, Nicagraguan tobacco to all other tobacco, could that person make the same case for it that you are making for Cuban tobacco?

Possibly and I wouldn't argue the point. Taste is subjective and long may it be so. I can only ever give my experiences and I would consider it hubris to consider it an edict.

[samb]

If (and this is a big "if") someone really liked and preferred, say, Nicagraguan tobacco to all other tobacco, could that person make the same case for it that you are making for Cuban tobacco?

Nice thought. I think they probably could make the same argument... The soil and climate of Nic may just produce a cigar that fits great on their palate, and it may have the exact amount of complexity that suits that individual perfectly.

Many of the major NC producer have "cuban seed" tobacco, but even it is actual Cuban tobacco seed, other factors will cause the resultant cigar to not be the same as a CC puro.

[Colt45]

If (and this is a big "if") someone really liked and preferred, say, Nicagraguan tobacco to all other tobacco, could that person make the same case for it that you are making for Cuban tobacco?

Absolutely - but the questions would remain the same.

[Habanos2000]

I don't believe you can point to just one aspect of the entire process and say it is the defining criteria that makes a Cuban cigar "great". I feel it's the entire chain of events, starting with the soil, the fertilization, the seed, the sun, the temp, the humidity... you get it. The sum is far greater than its parts.

[Stalebread]

Absolutely - but the questions would remain the same.

Hmmm. You're right.

So is there room in your search for why you perceive such a difference in overall flavor qualities

for such more-or-less intangibles as expectations, general openness to new experiences, stuff like that?

[tuff]

I have always assumed it is the soil. I know seeds have been taken from Cuba and used in other countries and it's just not the same. I have also heard there is an abundance of Lithium in the Cuban soil. I wonder if this is the same Lithium used as a sedative? I know I seem to get a little more and different "buzz" from a Cuban cigar.

John

[Colt45]

So is there room in your search for why you perceive such a difference in overall flavor qualities

for such more-or-less intangibles as expectations, general openness to new experiences, stuff like that?

Of course - it's an open topic. My only wish is that it would not become the typical x vs. y. I'll try to expound a bit more. It was a nice day - sun shining,

birds out, a few squirrels playing their games. The cigar I chose is one I've smoked before. As it tends to do when I'm sitting alone in these situations,

my mind wanders, at times solving all the world's problems, but more often than not, creating new ones.

But in this case, as already mentioned, I began to think about the differences (as I perceive them) and the whys. I do smoke with an open mind, and I

didn't dislike the cigar - if anything I tend to look at / for the positive attributes. So I sit and ponder - what is it? Is it really just a simple matter of

soil etc? And if that's the case, what is it that makes Cuba so unique in the caribbean? Is it what the cows eat and how it becomes fertilizer, a complete

symbiotic relationship? (I've no idea what type of fertilizer is used ) And so on......

And we could flip it around and ask what gives let's say, Nicaraguan tobacco it's unique characteristic, but to my taste, I find it shares more similarities

to Honduran and Dominican tobacco than it has vast differences. And I guess it is fair to say that I do prefer Cuban tobacco and am looking at it from

that perspective. Interestingly (perhaps) enough, I enjoy wines from all over the world, for both unique and similar characteristics. Last week I had

a rosso piceno from Le Marche region in Italy, a wine I used to drink more of, but hadn't seen in a while. One of the things I like about it is though you

do get a good sense of the fruit, it has a fairly astringent finish - to some it might seem a clash, but I enjoy it.

But perhaps, as Bolivr has mentioned, this might be the type oy "mystery" best left unsolved

[sama]

great topic... i do think that subtle differences in the environment, processing, ect. all play a part giving tobaccos from different regions their unique characteristics. i don't think it is as simple as just one single element (soil) although that must play a major roll. but i do agree also that it isn't a question of better or worse, it is more a matter of preference. as a general rule i personally prefer cuban tobacco, but at times i am in the mood for the clean, spicy, bold flavors of a nic. puro like an illusione. the differences are undeniable... however i think none of us can really know what exactly causes this since there are so many variables (and secrets)

[Wiley]

I don't discount the soil theory. I just think it's more than that. I enjoy some of the flavors I find in non-Cuban tobacco. However, I often find that tobacco rolled up into perfect little straws, screwing up the whole thing. This is my number one problem with non-Cubans.

Non-Cubans are mostly fat, while I prefer narrow cigars.

Many of the better non-Cubans are much more expensive than your average Cuban.

Many of the non-Cubans I've smoked fall along the extremes of being very mild, or very strong/full. I suppose the mild cigars are for new fathers, and the very strong cigars are trying to smack you so hard you don't notice the lack of complexity or good flavors.

[cigarros]

If you know cigar culture in Russia counts not a lot of time as in the USA and Europe. And it's obvious for me when I communicate with beginners who compares the Havanas and NC cigars.

Unanimously russians beginners tells that the Cuban cigars more sated'em in aroma and they are is more various in tastes than NC. I answer them they're will be always differents cigars. Like a women. One's blonde, another brunet... Which will be better? I don't know. Every Jack has his Jill......

I wouldn't lie and impose my own point of view. I want only each beginners has made theirown choice. I think that any who smokes cigars constantly, sooner or later comes to the best tobacco for cigars - to the Cuban tobacco. Who has never tasted bitter, knows not what is sweet)))

[mazolaman]

I don't believe you can point to just one aspect of the entire process and say it is the defining criteria that makes a Cuban cigar "great". I feel it's the entire chain of events, starting with the soil, the fertilization, the seed, the sun, the temp, the humidity... you get it. The sum is far greater than its parts.

This is what the French mean by the word "terroir",the whole process and environment.They obsess about this word with wine,cheese,everything.They understand that these natural products are a sum of some unique parts,and circumstances.

There are no cigars like Cubans....

[Tricrescent]

I believe it’s the particular strains of yeast and bacteria which are endemic to Cuba’s particular soil/environment. Anyone who brews beer or makes bread learns that the yeast and bacteria native to each individual brewery or bakery (or household) give that beer or bread its distinctive flavor profile.

San Francisco sourdough bread can only be made in San Francisco. If the yeast is brought to another environment, over a short time it will be overrun by the local yeast and you’ll have whatever flavor that yeast imparts, just not the San Fran. taste (close, but no cigar!). Same with Belgian beers where each brewery has cultivated their yeast over a period of as much as hundreds of years. This, I believe, is where each individual cigar factory’s distinct flavor profile comes from. The yeasts that develop over time in each fermenting shed or room is consistent and endemic to only that area while still sharing the overall characteristics of the larger region.

French wine has as distinct a taste (clean, fresh, airy) as Cuban cigars do (clean, fresh, airy), [my descriptions, of course]. I might prefer another country’s wine most of the time, but when I want the taste I find in French wines, I can pick up any bottle from France and in the background and foreground will be what I descibe as clean, fresh and airy. This is why some of us can rightly assert that we can pick a cuban cigar in a blind taste from a gaggle of non-cubans.