whale wars

[reg]

Ken, I envy your passion, but I think you are looking at it wrong. I completely agree that the governments of the world have been lacking in their involvement on the issue. That is who we should be after, trying to get them to listen and take action, rather than supporting these other guys who are not qualified.

The first line in that email sums it up for me:

"Our vessels and crews and have been ATTACKED! Lives have been threatened. A vessel has been destroyed. This day will go down in infamy."

Thats quite a stretch there...Maybe if they knew how to boat they wouldn't be in that position asking for people to throw away their money.

They are like child vigilantes, only slightly straddling the line of legality. Their tactics are juvenile and do not work well. They would be better off spending that money and lobbying the corrupt politicians.

And I believe Paul was the only one to not get a visa? Maybe not the only one but I believe I read that the organization was still holding an event, just that he wouldn't be able to be there

[DrunkenMonkey]

Ken, I envy your passion, but I think you are looking at it wrong. I completely agree that the governments of the world have been lacking in their involvement on the issue. That is who we should be after, trying to get them to listen and take action, rather than supporting these other guys who are not qualified.

The first line in that email sums it up for me:

"Our vessels and crews and have been ATTACKED! Lives have been threatened. A vessel has been destroyed. This day will go down in infamy."

Thats quite a stretch there...Maybe if they knew how to boat they wouldn't be in that position asking for people to throw away their money.

They are like child vigilantes, only slightly straddling the line of legality. Their tactics are juvenile and do not work well. They would be better off spending that money and lobbying the corrupt politicians.

And I believe Paul was the only one to not get a visa? Maybe not the only one but I believe I read that the organization was still holding an event, just that he wouldn't be able to be there

I'm curious as to why you think their tactics are so ineffective. They really have been successful at keeping whalers from their hunting for long periods of time, and they've brought a great deal of attention to this issue. Their tactics might not be entirely legal, but they have done as much as anyone to end illegal whaling.

And he didn't shoot himself.

[yossie]

I'm curious as to why you think their tactics are so ineffective. They really have been successful at keeping whalers from their hunting for long periods of time, and they've brought a great deal of attention to this issue. Their tactics might not be entirely legal, but they have done as much as anyone to end illegal whaling.

And he didn't shoot himself.

We can easily buy whale meat here. I don't think It's a success nor illegal. Anti whale hunting against only Japanese exept Inuit seems discrimination or egoism for me. Of course, I'm against killing off whales as well but can't understand people think It's cruel. yeah, maybe a cruel act but Living/eating are essentially such things. I can understand you are wondering why Japanese eat whale. It's our history like American/Australian eat cow,pig,chicken,rabbit and etc that We don't eat. I beleive we need to pay attention to others' culture.

At last, using violence to stop something is different with terroism? Japan is a member of IWC and also a democratic country. We thus discuss it there.

Thanks

[DrunkenMonkey]

We can easily buy whale meat here. I don't think It's a success nor illegal. Anti whale hunting against only Japanese exept Inuit seems discrimination or egoism for me. Of course, I'm against killing off whales as well but can't understand people think It's cruel. yeah, maybe a cruel act but Living/eating are essentially such things. I can understand you are wondering why Japanese eat whale. It's our history like American/Australian eat cow,pig,chicken,rabbit and etc that We don't eat. I beleive we need to pay attention to others' culture.

At last, using violence to stop something is different with terroism? Japan is a member of IWC and also a democratic country. We thus discuss it there.

Thanks

Yossie,

As you said, japan is a member country of the IWC. But japan is in constant and flagrant violation of both the 1986 moratorium on commercial whaling, as evidenced by the whale meat in your local shops, and the 1994 Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary, the violation of which is the target of the sea shepherd's activities. Japan's violation of these agreements is illegal, and I don't see how it can be seen otherwise, as japan is a member country of the governing body that passed these agreements, and therefore subject to them.

[DrunkenMonkey]

[quote name='yossie' date='Jan 8 2010, 10:26 AM' post='147442'

Japan is a member of IWC and also a democratic country. We thus discuss it there.

Thanks

I would also remind you that effective discussion requires the good faith of the participants.

[stargazer14]

I didnt see a link to the collision so here one is, there is another video from a 3rd boat that shows the whaling ship turning in to hit the smaller boat much better, but you cant see the damage in the other video.

It was in the news here in the states only as a 'cool video'.

[smpf67]

Yeh! It's on FOX News in the US all the time. They even had and interview with the funder (5 million dollars) of this expedition, Bob Barker from the game show The Price Is Right, on this morning.

[dcse]

A lot of coverage in Norwegian papers are we are also hunting whales for "scientific purposes"

However, with Sea Shepard flying the Norwegian flag for some odd reason, our Ministry of Foreign Affairs has filed a formal complaint to the captain of the mother ship

[KB24]

Out here in California we got some news reports of the incident. Mostly because the ship's new name is "Bob Barker." Yes, like the Bob Barker from the Price is Right. He donated $5M of his own money to the organization and helped re-furbish the ship.

[ucla695]

We can easily buy whale meat here. I don't think It's a success nor illegal. Anti whale hunting against only Japanese exept Inuit seems discrimination or egoism for me. Of course, I'm against killing off whales as well but can't understand people think It's cruel. yeah, maybe a cruel act but Living/eating are essentially such things. I can understand you are wondering why Japanese eat whale. It's our history like American/Australian eat cow,pig,chicken,rabbit and etc that We don't eat. I beleive we need to pay attention to others' culture.

At last, using violence to stop something is different with terroism? Japan is a member of IWC and also a democratic country. We thus discuss it there.

Thanks

I understand where you’re coming from on this issue. Regarding the cultural aspect of it, I think there are some important distinctions here. Chickens, cows, pigs, etc are sustainable resources and can be farmed. Whales can’t. Once they’re gone, they’re gone. Their departure will definitely affect the ecosystem. Secondly, the manner in which the animals are killed differ. One employs a more humane method and the other a more barbaric approach.

[thechenman]

Being easier to kill does not mean it is more humane. Death is death...man or animal. No one comes back from it. Still the hunter/prey scenario is part of the cycle of life. It is the way it has been and the way it will continue to be. This cultural aspect of hunting/killing whales brings my mind back to the discussions of bull fighting we have had on FOH in the past. I'm not saying it is the same thing at all...just wondering if there are those who see the way whales are captured and killed as inhumane and the way the bulls are killed as humane.

[DrunkenMonkey]

Being easier to kill does not mean it is more humane. Death is death...man or animal. No one comes back from it. Still the hunter/prey scenario is part of the cycle of life. It is the way it has been and the way it will continue to be. This cultural aspect of hunting/killing whales brings my mind back to the discussions of bull fighting we have had on FOH in the past. I'm not saying it is the same thing at all...just wondering if there are those who see the way whales are captured and killed as inhumane and the way the bulls are killed as humane.

In my opinion, the humane/inhumane argument is difficult and a distraction. The issue is legal/illegal. When The day comes that Spain has signed on to an international agreement to help prevent the extinction of bulls, then we might have a more direct comparison.

[ucla695]

Being easier to kill does not mean it is more humane. Death is death...man or animal. No one comes back from it. Still the hunter/prey scenario is part of the cycle of life. It is the way it has been and the way it will continue to be. This cultural aspect of hunting/killing whales brings my mind back to the discussions of bull fighting we have had on FOH in the past. I'm not saying it is the same thing at all...just wondering if there are those who see the way whales are captured and killed as inhumane and the way the bulls are killed as humane.

I agree, death is death. Ease of killing doesn’t play into it. What I’m talking about is the amount of suffering an animal has to endure in the process. I’d argue that whales suffer a lot more than say a cow, chicken, pig, etc…at time of slaughter/death. I object to whaling on this ground and the fact that they Japanese have agreed not to, but continue to do so under the guise of research.

[SamuraiJack]

Agreed!

[Habanos2000]

I've seen videos now that show both scenarios, the Japanese ship turning into the small ship and the small ship accelerating into the path of the Japanese ship.

I don't encourage the acts of vigilanties, which these Sea Shepard guys clearly are in my opinion. Unfortunatley they are driven to do this because of the lack of any governmental enforcement of the laws. Too often we find ourselves in unfortunate situations because our governments can get their heads out of their asses and just do the job they were elected to do.

One curious issue I'd like to understand better is the Japanese position of their ships being "scientific". Is there any validity to this claim?

[DrunkenMonkey]

I've seen videos now that show both scenarios, the Japanese ship turning into the small ship and the small ship accelerating into the path of the Japanese ship.

I don't encourage the acts of vigilanties, which these Sea Shepard guys clearly are in my opinion. Unfortunatley they are driven to do this because of the lack of any governmental enforcement of the laws. Too often we find ourselves in unfortunate situations because our governments can get their heads out of their asses and just do the job they were elected to do.

One curious issue I'd like to understand better is the Japanese position of their ships being "scientific". Is there any validity to this claim?

Yes, they're conducting research about how to keep markets supplied with whale meat.

[yossie]

I understand where you're coming from on this issue. Regarding the cultural aspect of it, I think there are some important distinctions here. Chickens, cows, pigs, etc are sustainable resources and can be farmed. Whales can't. Once they're gone, they're gone. Their departure will definitely affect the ecosystem. Secondly, the manner in which the animals are killed differ. One employs a more humane method and the other a more barbaric approach.

Hmmm.... That can not justify what Inuit can hunt whales and sounds We can hunt whales which are many. Maybe, The most important diffenrent position on whale between both you and us is whale is special animal or not. I know some of people who are against the hunting claim what whale hunting should be forbidden , cause whales are intellegnt. but We don't discriminate it for the reason.

As people regard whale as special, I also regard dogs and cat as special but don't claim Chinese and korean not to eat these. because that's their culture and many dogs and cats there, Yet I don't understand why they eat these.

[armedak]

Yossie, with all due respect the subsistence hunting by the Eskimo people on the North Slope is so far removed from the illegal commercial hunting of whales by the huge commercial Japanese ships for simple profit, it is almost laughable, if it was not so sad.

The aboriginal Eskimos have few other food resources available on the North Slope of Alaska. They conduct their subsistence hunts in small wooden boats which have a very limited range of a few miles offshore. They use hand thrown harpoons and seal skin air bladders to float the whale back to shore. Most every able bodied person in the village partiicipates either, in the actual hunt, or the subsequent processing of the whale. The elderly of the village, too old to participate, are also given a share of the harvest. The numbers of whales harvested are very low, and none of the meat is sold for money or profit.

Also, they can't just go down to the store and buy whale meat like apparently the Japanese can. By the way, that sounds like a real cultural experience for the Japanese. I suppose next the Japanese are going to tell us that the natives of the Society Islands should be able to harvest passing ships for humans since it is part of their cultural heritage to be cannibals. The Japanese claim these commercial hunts are for scientific purposes is equally outrageous. What kind of research vessel kills and sells for profit most every "test subject" in their study group?

While I can't say I completely approve of all the tactics the Sea Shepard group uses, I have to respect their courage and dedication. Granted they may not be professional mariners, but at least they are trying to do something to stop the illegal commercial whaling by the Japanese in a political climate where no government entity seems willing to do anything.

[ucla695]

Hmmm.... That can not justify what Inuit can hunt whales and sounds We can hunt whales which are many. Maybe, The most important diffenrent position on whale between both you and us is whale is special animal or not. I know some of people who are against the hunting claim what whale hunting should be forbidden , cause whales are intellegnt. but We don't discriminate it for the reason.

As people regard whale as special, I also regard dogs and cat as special but don't claim Chinese and korean not to eat these. because that's their culture and many dogs and cats there, Yet I don't understand why they eat these.

Are the Inuits bound by an international treaty? How many actively hunt whales and what impact does their activity have on whale populations? Whether or not they are considered a special animal is irrelevant. The whale population is declining and it is one of the reasons many nations, including Japan, have signed a treaty to agree to stop hunting them. Although Japan continues to hunt whales for what it calls "research."

[yossie]

Are the Inuits bound by an international treaty? How many actively hunt whales and what impact does their activity have on whale populations? Whether or not they are considered a special animal is irrelevant. The whale population is declining and it is one of the reasons many nations, including Japan, have signed a treaty to agree to stop hunting them. Although Japan continues to hunt whales for what it calls "research."

So, If Japan and the other whale hunting countries get out from IWC and make a new agreement, their huntings will be no problem?

[tugboat]

After watching the video a couple of times in my opinion the protester's boat was sucked into the whaler’s vessel.

The angle was such that when the operator (I wont even dignify calling him captain) of the protester’s boat tried to pull out of it. It was too late. You get close to a large vessel like that underway and at that speed, it’s going to suck you right along side it. That being said according to the rules of the road the whaler’s vessel is at fault. Or at least at fault more than the protestor’s boat. Typically the courts will determine who’s at fault on a percentage basis for insurance reasons.

I love watching the show and support their cause but they are crazy and that first mate they had was about as useless as they come. He’s the one that would have ended up killing someone. I think he’s gone now.

[Ken Gargett]

After watching the video a couple of times in my opinion the protester's boat was sucked into the whaler's vessel.

The angle was such that when the operator (I wont even dignify calling him captain) of the protester's boat tried to pull out of it. It was too late. You get close to a large vessel like that underway and at that speed, it's going to suck you right along side it. That being said according to the rules of the road the whaler's vessel is at fault. Or at least at fault more than the protestor's boat. Typically the courts will determine who's at fault on a percentage basis for insurance reasons.

I love watching the show and support their cause but they are crazy and that first mate they had was about as useless as they come. He's the one that would have ended up killing someone. I think he's gone now.

ady gil was not insured. and jurisdiction becomes a huge issue.

one wonders if sea shepherd would use their funds for a legal action or just use them to continue to stop the whalers (they are as anti any nation whaling - it is not purely an anti-japanese thing).

i think we all probably agree that it is unfortunate that an organisation like sea shepherd exists, let alone acts in this manner but for different reasons. i'd love to see them disband because they'd been successful; others may have different motives.

in a perfect world, or even something vaguely approaching it, govts would be all over this and it would have been resolved. our spineless mob are the textbook example. election promises about stopping whaling and taking japan to the international court and so on. get elected and couldn't run from those promises fast enough. pulic pressure and perception with this sinking and in they rush, with exactly the same promises and crap.

the best way to solve this would be to have the harpooners leave the whales alone and shoot the politicians, starting with our grubby lot. far more blubber there.

[gfoster]

the best way to solve this would be to have the harpooners leave the whales alone and shoot the politicians, starting with our grubby lot. far more blubber there.

Smartest thing I've seen on this board ever. Positively brilliant idea.

-- Gary F.

[ucla695]

So, If Japan and the other whale hunting countries get out from IWC and make a new agreement, their huntings will be no problem?

Why would they? They agreed to the terms. What has changed? Perhaps there's more attention to their intentions than they wanted (read: guise of research)?

[Colt45]

in a perfect world, or even something vaguely approaching it, govts would be all over this and it would have been resolved.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be a need - humans would understand our place on the planet.

But to a large degree, I don't believe we do.