From a buyers perspective. Some suggestions for HSA.

[jayjayuk]

i meant, in case i wasnt clear, an mp4 cigar case with lighter cutter ect ect ect.

[PigFish]

Rob, I don’t know if I can write something truly positive to H SA. I think that they are making some flawed decisions these days. What I can do is write something truthful from the heart and include with it some sage business advice. Furthermore I could probably spend hours writing something more eloquent but frankly finding just the right words to tell these folks how to charge me more money is not really in my best interest. If this does not fit what you want in the thread feel free to delete it. -R

Dear Mr. Biggy Wiggy

C/O H SA

Here are some suggestions that you may or may not find useful.

Trends are fine, lead them, follow them, create them or just compete in them I don’t care. What I want is a quality product. A quality product does more than just come in a fancy box with more than one band. An extra band, a glossy box and a high price does not make the cigars inside it any better. Bands and boxes are fine… you should expand your business to make them for yourself and make that a profit center BUT DON’T NEGLECT THE CIGARS INSIDE. Limited edition and special run cigars should be close to flawless. If you can’t make them that way then you should not make them at all. If you do you will risk the alienation of the consumer buying these products and cut your own throat with those products in the process. If the wrappers are not good enough don’t make the cigars! Use only the best of the best and that includes the use of the best rollers at the best factories. You should use your top name factories only for these cigars and stamp the factory name such as El Laguito proudly on the box. This is what you pay for with these products; known, display worthy quality cigars that satisfy all the senses.

People have always wished to set themselves apart from the ordinary with there choice of material goods. If that means that they need to pay extra for a cigar then so be it… God bless you in your quest but give the rich bloke his moneys worth. Give him an exceptional cigar for his money, let him know where it was rolled and have the roller sign the box. Give him one that truly sets him apart from his friend who smokes normal production product. These products should be exceptional in every way making them the envy of the smoking world and not just attractive to those who spend their money foolishly.

Lets talk about normal production for a moment. Normal production serves many people. Even though you sell a product, a luxury product ostensibly, you have a following that includes the working man. Why would you not want to make good products for him as well? There are only so many consumers of cigars in this world and your model should be that of a company that satisfies all level of consumers.

Let me introduce you to another concept, the concept is compromise. Compromise means that instead of simply destroying a product with good taste performance and a loyal following simply cut back production of these products instead of killing them off. Use a computer, track some inventories and control output with demand. Killing off lines of cigars disgruntles the consumers that like those lines. Those consumers are not going to go ahead and change their wants and tastes to follow your trends. Many of them have already figured out that more filler does not make a better cigar. They are the smoking idealists who may find cigars elsewhere when you choose to ignore them or discontinue their favorite product. At least some of those cigars could be produced in smaller numbers that create a demand for those cigars when they are in season. Don’t go back to over producing them if they don’t sell out. But continuing to produce them keeps a segment of your consuming public happy.

Do I have other ideas for you? Yes I do. But don’t think that I am going to give you ideas that are simply ways for you to charge me more for a product that I pay too much for already, no I am not going to do that? If you wish to pursue the direction of ultra luxury lines and get more per gram of your tobacco that is an honest pursuit and a fair one. I would not deny you that. But as a consumer I want good, reasonably priced cigars that satisfies my daily use of your product. I want taste performance and I want that in various sizes to suit my mood, tastes and at the same time limits my waste. In a world obsessed with waste, good tobacco is not to be used for fertilizer. Cigars of various sizes fit a niche and there are other smokers like me who are not by nature persons wishing to be wasteful with good tobacco. We want sizes that suit the time and place that we have to smoke. We don’t wish to waste our money or your tobacco simply due to a current trend where “the bigger the better.”

With the world view of tobacco use becoming more negative by the day you may wish to keep those customers who have stood by your product over the years. Not all of us are skulls full of mush that will be swayed by the word “NEW.” Rolex does not change its Oyster line to suit the new craze in behemoth watches. Porsche does not change the 911 to a hybrid and the sturgeon does not start producing pastel green eggs to match your new drapes! There are few classics in this world and you already produce some of them. Be smart enough to realize it! You are the world leader here… why emulate companies who attract consumers with gimmicks?

Lastly I will give you a profile of an important consumer. ME! Frankly sirs I don’t need to buy another cigar in the near future, not from you or anyone for that matter. I buy cigars as a matter of desire and not one of need. There are many like me. I have thousands of your cigars already and I am willing to buy thousands more if you don’t squeeze me out in search of trend seekers. I am willing to continue to buy cigars based on what you have done in the past not what you are trying to do now. You should think about that a bit. I am willing to buy new cigars only if you continue to produce some cigars that I really like and ask a reasonable sum of money in exchange for them. Many of the cigars that I own are those that you claim to have little demand for. So be it. Those cigars were not wasted, you sold them to a distributor where they were bought by me and persons like me. In your attempts to saturate the market you have oversaturated some segments. You sold those cigars over time and I bought them. If you rolled them into huge cigars I would not have bought them, you would have simply oversaturated a different segment and you need to understand this. I bought them because they met a profile that I was looking for and they had a taste performance track record. You may wish to think about customers like me before you change every production model to those of the non-Cuban brands. They need gimmicks… you don’t. You sell me cigars now… they don’t. Become like them and neither one of you will sell me cigars until what I want becomes the trend again. I can afford to wait you out but do you really want to do that to a man who has proven to be one of your best customers? That would be a stupid move!

I will leave you with this last note. By attempting to capture more market and new consumers you will always risk oversaturation of a segment. You need to know and willingly accept that risk. What you call failure has created opportunity for me and as a result I have bought and consumed your product by the thousands. I am sorry that you consider this opportunity failure, it is not failure to me it is a free market finding equilibrium. The laws that pertain to free markets will not be changed by the sizes of your cigars. You may be able to optimize your product and your market segments but you will never be able to sell more cigars than the market will bear. Some of the decisions that you are making now may well cost you more market share than it makes for you.

I am proof of the past success of the Habanos line and many others on this board will back me up on what I have said here. Perhaps you should consider some of what I have said if for no other reason than I have earned the right to be heard by the numbers of cigars that I have consumed and the money that I have spent on your products.

Sincerely, Mr. Piggy

[anacostiakat]

Very good post Piggy!

While not in your league I agree with what you have to say.

[Jimmy2]

Mr. Piggy good read now i think we all want to see a pic of your stash after that letter.

[BobLobLaw]

I´ll second that!

x3 on the 10 count boxes. And I think this is something they have already been doing. As a newer smoker with limited space in a cold weather town with anti smoking laws the 10 counts are perfect IMO. Excited that PSD4 and Lusi are now in 10s and plan on getting some when I buy again. Would love to see more of this in things such as BRC, RASS, RAG, Esplendidos, etc . . . heck even PC sizes would be cool. Much better then the cardboard packs

[anacostiakat]

Mr. Piggy good read now i think we all want to see a pic of your stash after that letter.

Hell with the pics. I want to go visit!

[PigFish]

Very good post Piggy!

While not in your league I agree with what you have to say.

My friend... whoever you are, you are in my league! You buy the same products I do and probably spend more today than I do. So I have collected cigars for a number of years now, so what! I have now smoked cigars for over 25 years. In that time I have indeed smoked thousands of cigars, that is not bullshit! (not that you were saying it was)

I have bought cigars that no one else seems to want and I have smoked some great cigars as the result. Where we may be different is I have learned to trust my tastes not those of the guys at CA or some golden tongued guru elsewhere. I take some risks and buy cigars that I think will be good that are currently out of fashion. I share tips with friends in places like these and I listen to what is being said by people in the know. When Rob cleaned out PCC of coronas and lonsdales... well guess who was in line?

I am not saying that other cigars are not good. I am only saying that I know what I like. I am not saying that I own 10,000 cigars, I don't, I can't afford it. Like you, I buy a box here, a box there but sometimes I have an opportunity and I pounce. It might be du Deputes, RG CE's or even Siglo 3's but it is rarely Cohiba robustos and never Monte Edmundos. You would be impressed by the taste of the cigars I own, but not in the bands or the boxes! I don't lie here... look at the cigars that I post about; PC's, Coronas, Lonsdales, almost always about what H SA says does not sell and people don't want. Truly, no one here would be WOW'd by the cigars that I own. They are not WOW cigars, not by the looks of them anyway, they are only regular production cigars where only the taste is exceptional.

-Piggy

[PigFish]

Sorry, I had to step away!

Here is a little tidbit to make you all laugh. I only write like a pretentious son-of-a-*****! I am anything but. The reason I had to finish up my last post was Lady Piggy was waiting to give me a haircut. Yup… I am mostly bald and I am too cheap to pay a barber! Why should I, a pair of horse clippers works well for me and I can spend the bread on another cigar?

I spent the day in blue jeans and a tank top scratching one of my mares neck and smoking a lonsdale. That was after shoveling horse ****! I am not a pretentious guy, I only write like one. Hell, ask Rob. I am an everyday slob who loves getting a good deal on a good cigar. I am one of his cheapest customers. I wear steel toed boots, love/hate horses, ride a Harley and pick my nose when no one is looking.

Well, if that has blown my letter to the boys at H SA, they can **** off too! The thing that I wanted them to know is that I smoke cigars, quite a lot of them and I don’t drive a Mercedes and I did not go to Oxford.

I am no guru guys, just a guy like you who enjoys Habanos and knows what he likes. Thanks for reading.

-Piggy

[zuma]

I am no guru guys, just a guy like you who enjoys Habanos and knows what he likes. Thanks for reading.

I like this little piggy.... and the way he thinks... and the way he's expressed his views...

On'ya!

[El Presidente]

Some sensational replies guys. Good suggestions and commentary from the heart, from zealots who have the best interests of the Habanos at heart.

I had a conversation with people within HSA overnight.

The final discontinued list for 09 has not been determined (signed off on).

There is an internal battle with lines drawn on two sides. One side is pushing for deletion of cigars which do not meet ROI benchmanrks. The other side is battling hard to keep them on the basis of history and balance.

The forces of "good" are having a hard time coming up with ideas to save them. You have brought forward some excellent reasons why to do so.

If you have any more, keep them coming.

[rckymtn22]

I would like to thank Harry and Mr. Piggy for their excellent posts. Hard to top them for their ideas.

[Jimmy2]

Please don't stop making the Punch SS#1 it is one of the last of the old school Cubans cigars from the robust flavor to the size.

I think out of all the cigars on the final cut list this one should not go !! Its a classic !!! A master piece from cap to foot!!!!

And how could you take away another cigar form the Punch line up do you know the history of this line !!!!

Hell i am going to smoke one outside right now.

[mkz]

Please don't stop making the Punch SS#1 it is one of the last of the old school Cubans cigars from the robust flavor to the size.

Perhaps the issue with the SS1 is in the packaging. How about cutting it down to a cab of 25 instead?

[Guest Robson]

Rob, I don’t know if I can write something truly positive to H SA. I think that they are making some flawed decisions these days. What I can do is write something truthful from the heart and include with it some sage business advice. Furthermore I could probably spend hours writing something more eloquent but frankly finding just the right words to tell these folks how to charge me more money is not really in my best interest. If this does not fit what you want in the thread feel free to delete it. -R

Dear Mr. Biggy Wiggy

C/O H SA

Here are some suggestions that you may or may not find useful.

Trends are fine, lead them, follow them, create them or just compete in them I don’t care. What I want is a quality product. A quality product does more than just come in a fancy box with more than one band. An extra band, a glossy box and a high price does not make the cigars inside it any better. Bands and boxes are fine… you should expand your business to make them for yourself and make that a profit center BUT DON’T NEGLECT THE CIGARS INSIDE. Limited edition and special run cigars should be close to flawless. If you can’t make them that way then you should not make them at all. If you do you will risk the alienation of the consumer buying these products and cut your own throat with those products in the process. If the wrappers are not good enough don’t make the cigars! Use only the best of the best and that includes the use of the best rollers at the best factories. You should use your top name factories only for these cigars and stamp the factory name such as El Laguito proudly on the box. This is what you pay for with these products; known, display worthy quality cigars that satisfy all the senses.

People have always wished to set themselves apart from the ordinary with there choice of material goods. If that means that they need to pay extra for a cigar then so be it… God bless you in your quest but give the rich bloke his moneys worth. Give him an exceptional cigar for his money, let him know where it was rolled and have the roller sign the box. Give him one that truly sets him apart from his friend who smokes normal production product. These products should be exceptional in every way making them the envy of the smoking world and not just attractive to those who spend their money foolishly.

Lets talk about normal production for a moment. Normal production serves many people. Even though you sell a product, a luxury product ostensibly, you have a following that includes the working man. Why would you not want to make good products for him as well? There are only so many consumers of cigars in this world and your model should be that of a company that satisfies all level of consumers.

Let me introduce you to another concept, the concept is compromise. Compromise means that instead of simply destroying a product with good taste performance and a loyal following simply cut back production of these products instead of killing them off. Use a computer, track some inventories and control output with demand. Killing off lines of cigars disgruntles the consumers that like those lines. Those consumers are not going to go ahead and change their wants and tastes to follow your trends. Many of them have already figured out that more filler does not make a better cigar. They are the smoking idealists who may find cigars elsewhere when you choose to ignore them or discontinue their favorite product. At least some of those cigars could be produced in smaller numbers that create a demand for those cigars when they are in season. Don’t go back to over producing them if they don’t sell out. But continuing to produce them keeps a segment of your consuming public happy.

Do I have other ideas for you? Yes I do. But don’t think that I am going to give you ideas that are simply ways for you to charge me more for a product that I pay too much for already, no I am not going to do that? If you wish to pursue the direction of ultra luxury lines and get more per gram of your tobacco that is an honest pursuit and a fair one. I would not deny you that. But as a consumer I want good, reasonably priced cigars that satisfies my daily use of your product. I want taste performance and I want that in various sizes to suit my mood, tastes and at the same time limits my waste. In a world obsessed with waste, good tobacco is not to be used for fertilizer. Cigars of various sizes fit a niche and there are other smokers like me who are not by nature persons wishing to be wasteful with good tobacco. We want sizes that suit the time and place that we have to smoke. We don’t wish to waste our money or your tobacco simply due to a current trend where “the bigger the better.”

With the world view of tobacco use becoming more negative by the day you may wish to keep those customers who have stood by your product over the years. Not all of us are skulls full of mush that will be swayed by the word “NEW.” Rolex does not change its Oyster line to suit the new craze in behemoth watches. Porsche does not change the 911 to a hybrid and the sturgeon does not start producing pastel green eggs to match your new drapes! There are few classics in this world and you already produce some of them. Be smart enough to realize it! You are the world leader here… why emulate companies who attract consumers with gimmicks?

Lastly I will give you a profile of an important consumer. ME! Frankly sirs I don’t need to buy another cigar in the near future, not from you or anyone for that matter. I buy cigars as a matter of desire and not one of need. There are many like me. I have thousands of your cigars already and I am willing to buy thousands more if you don’t squeeze me out in search of trend seekers. I am willing to continue to buy cigars based on what you have done in the past not what you are trying to do now. You should think about that a bit. I am willing to buy new cigars only if you continue to produce some cigars that I really like and ask a reasonable sum of money in exchange for them. Many of the cigars that I own are those that you claim to have little demand for. So be it. Those cigars were not wasted, you sold them to a distributor where they were bought by me and persons like me. In your attempts to saturate the market you have oversaturated some segments. You sold those cigars over time and I bought them. If you rolled them into huge cigars I would not have bought them, you would have simply oversaturated a different segment and you need to understand this. I bought them because they met a profile that I was looking for and they had a taste performance track record. You may wish to think about customers like me before you change every production model to those of the non-Cuban brands. They need gimmicks… you don’t. You sell me cigars now… they don’t. Become like them and neither one of you will sell me cigars until what I want becomes the trend again. I can afford to wait you out but do you really want to do that to a man who has proven to be one of your best customers? That would be a stupid move!

I will leave you with this last note. By attempting to capture more market and new consumers you will always risk oversaturation of a segment. You need to know and willingly accept that risk. What you call failure has created opportunity for me and as a result I have bought and consumed your product by the thousands. I am sorry that you consider this opportunity failure, it is not failure to me it is a free market finding equilibrium. The laws that pertain to free markets will not be changed by the sizes of your cigars. You may be able to optimize your product and your market segments but you will never be able to sell more cigars than the market will bear. Some of the decisions that you are making now may well cost you more market share than it makes for you.

I am proof of the past success of the Habanos line and many others on this board will back me up on what I have said here. Perhaps you should consider some of what I have said if for no other reason than I have earned the right to be heard by the numbers of cigars that I have consumed and the money that I have spent on your products.

Sincerely, Mr. Piggy

Great post Mr. Piggy!

[anacostiakat]

Sorry, I had to step away!

Here is a little tidbit to make you all laugh. I only write like a pretentious son-of-a-*****! I am anything but. The reason I had to finish up my last post was Lady Piggy was waiting to give me a haircut. Yup… I am mostly bald and I am too cheap to pay a barber! Why should I, a pair of horse clippers works well for me and I can spend the bread on another cigar?

I spent the day in blue jeans and a tank top scratching one of my mares neck and smoking a lonsdale. That was after shoveling horse ****! I am not a pretentious guy, I only write like one. Hell, ask Rob. I am an everyday slob who loves getting a good deal on a good cigar. I am one of his cheapest customers. I wear steel toed boots, love/hate horses, ride a Harley and pick my nose when no one is looking.

Well, if that has blown my letter to the boys at H SA, they can **** off too! The thing that I wanted them to know is that I smoke cigars, quite a lot of them and I don’t drive a Mercedes and I did not go to Oxford.

I am no guru guys, just a guy like you who enjoys Habanos and knows what he likes. Thanks for reading.

-Piggy

Just a poor boy from the ghetto, Piggy! But I must say I like your style, Brother!

[Aficionado]

Many things have been a reasonably written.

The problem is that since almost 20 years, the production of cigars in Cuba decided by idiots.

do you remember? 1992 premiere issue of Cigar aficionado and ranking robustos ?

Flor de Cano Short Churchill 92pkt, lost by 1 point with a almost double expensive-Cohiba Robusto and what?

Why produce a good cheap cigar, by the wise men of the better Cubatabaco cease production. and cut money for the Cohiba.

Where to start Cuba, Ends reasonable thinking.

[chrisguinther]

Does anyone know if HSA tracks the sales of vitolas after it has been announced they are discontinued? I'm just curious if enough of a sales push would change their minds.

[qman22]

Perhaps the issue with the SS1 is in the packaging. How about cutting it down to a cab of 25 instead?

I am thinking the same thing. Sometimes, due to $ issues, it just isn't feasible to buy cabs of 50 at a time. I also support the idea of more 10 count boxes.

[greenpimp]

First of all, though I have some disagreements with vitola size/branding, I think overall HSA has had a tremendously positive influence on Cuban Cigars. The boxes I buy today are, overall, superior in quality to the same ones I was buying 5 or 6 years ago.

1) I would love to see limited re-releases of long-gone classics, like the Partagas Lonsdales, Punch SS#2, Por Larranaga Magnums, etc. And/or cigars made from the classic Corojo leaf. To be sold only at LCDH's, in limited releases. I really think HSA would be surprise how quickly they would sell out 10,000 boxes of a Heritage or Connoiseur's limited release kind of offering, even at a substantial price.

2) Instead of trying to follow trends, LEAD. YOU HAVE THE BEST TOBACCO LEAF IN THE WORLD. As has been already eloquently stated, it is unnecessary to chase what the Non-Cuban brands are doing. They are, and always have been, chasing YOU. Thinner cigars are now coming "back" into fashion on the non-Cuban front, and there is danger of HSA still chasing the fat cigar trend. Stay true to your roots and what makes a classic Cuban cigar great. Thinner, stronger, richer.

[sinnyc]

Instead of trying to follow trends, LEAD. YOU HAVE THE BEST TOBACCO LEAF IN THE WORLD. As has been already eloquently stated, it is unnecessary to chase what the Non-Cuban brands are doing. They are, and always have been, chasing YOU. Thinner cigars are now coming "back" into fashion on the non-Cuban front, and there is danger of HSA still chasing the fat cigar trend. Stay true to your roots and what makes a classic Cuban cigar great. Thinner, stronger, richer.

Preach it, brother!

- Tim

[Wiley]

I'd love to see a detailed explanation from them of why simply reducing the quantity produced of less popular cigars is not a viable alternative to discontinuing them.

I really don't think they fully comprehend what they're doing. Alienating the loyal customers for the sake of the occasional ones... unwise.

[El Presidente]

I'd love to see a detailed explanation from them of why simply reducing the quantity produced of less popular cigars is not a viable alternative to discontinuing them.

I really don't think they fully comprehend what they're doing. Alienating the loyal customers for the sake of the occasional ones... unwise.

Let me put a HSA hat on (play devils advocate).

The thought process is that each cigar must have a benchmark return on investment. Opportunity cost must be taken into account in determining this ROI.

So to maintain a 100,000 annual production of SS1 we need to maintain packaging options, apportion that tobacco for the cigar as opposed to putting it elsewhere where I can sell the product 20 times faster.

No we do not wish to alienate, however there are economic fundamentals we all need to keep in mind.

Would it shock you that we sell more Montecristo Edmundo in a month than Punch SS1 in a decade?

We do not believe the market is ignorant. They are making choices every day and are shaping our direction.

[IceChant]

I'll be yes man for Mr. Piggy, if I pay high price for cigars I want the highest quality possible.

I'll be happy to see more maduro cigars in lower price and in different sizes than the Cohiba 5 Maduro.

Consistent strong cigars is something I'm looking for but it might be only me.

As been said more boxes of 10 will be great.

To clear up as I'm not sure, what are the classic sizes ? I know corona is the basic size.

[PigFish]

I believe that this thread needs a little levity.

Sometime ago I happened on a meeting of H SA executives and at the time they were all wearing their H SA hats. You may recognize the hats as incompetent executives around the world wear similar ones, there may in fact be an individual wearing one in the office/cubical/urinal next to you. Be wary of persons wearing such hats due to the fact that a narrow mind resides in a correspondingly small cranium which lends itself to this particular fedora.

Rob… dear friend, you may want to reconsider using the term “wearing my H SA hat!” I love you brother, I know you are putting up a good fight for me but I like your FoH hat much, much better! -Ray

[CigarZen]

Let me put a HSA hat on (play devils advocate).

The thought process is that each cigar must have a benchmark return on investment. Opportunity cost must be taken into account in determining this ROI.

So to maintain a 100,000 annual production of SS1 we need to maintain packaging options, apportion that tobacco for the cigar as opposed to putting it elsewhere where I can sell the product 20 times faster.

No we do not wish to alienate, however there are economic fundamentals we all need to keep in mind.

Would it shock you that we sell more Montecristo Edmundo in a month than Punch SS1 in a decade?

We do not believe the market is ignorant. They are making choices every day and are shaping our direction.

Rob -- first, what about vitola/marques into which consumers mature?

When I first started smoking havanas more a few years ago I mostly bought robustos, DCs, Churchills, and No2s -- mostly from the major lines. As I became more experienced I moved into other vitola: Laguito No 2, corona gorda, belis. I tried Juan Lopez, Le hoyo series, La Glorias. I sampled PC, TPC, lonsdales, and coronas. I moved into smoking milder cigars that aged well like Quai dOrsay and Por Larranaga, and sampled thinner gauge in the major brands -- much to my liking. But if they were eliminated I never would have had that chance.

When I was younger I never like H Upmann, I viewed them as old man cigars. I am not sure if my palate changed or I stopped smoking them fresh and let them age -- but HU is now one of my favorite brands.

Second, what about a variety to suit different moods? I may run on a streak of enjoying PSD4s, then tire of them, and move to Punch SS1s or La Gloria Medal No 1.

On different topic quality is key, and great strides have been made in quality of construction. But how about special cigars bringing back the strains of the early 90s -- old style corojo? Not the hybrid. Remember that -- that is probably what made you fall in love with Lanceros.