Is there any "logic" to the numbers on Cuban vitolas?

[Jerryvonkramer]

Following the Monty line:

The 1 is a Cervantes (Lonsdale)

The 2 is a Piramides

The 3 is a Corona

The 4 is a Mareva

and the 5 is a Perla

 

There is still the Fonseca 1 which a Lonsdale, Diplomaticos 1, Upmann 1, Allones 1, Partagas 1 all discontinued.

Diplomaticos 2, Upmann 2, Partagas Serie P2 all still going.

Diplomaticos 3, Upmann 3 both discontinued

Diplomaticos 4 and 5, Upmann 4 and 5 all discontinued

 

However, there are other strange continuities. For example:

 

Juan Lopez Seleccion No.1 is a Corona Gorda, Hoyo Epicure 1 is also one.

Juan Lopez Seleccion No. 1 is a Robousto, Hoyo Epicure 2 is also one.

 

Does anyone know if there is an rhyme or reason to any of this? Something that has been bugging me for years.

 

[NSXCIGAR]

I'd guess some brands simply copied or imitated the "numbers" effectively making them somewhat standard in the early 20th century. The first brand to do it was probably a small one that wanted to seem similar to a large famous one. Also smaller producers would often contract with the largest factories like HU and Partagas to roll their cigars so it would make sense that some interchangeability in vitola and model names would occur just by virtue of that. 

It's quite possible the standard of vitolas named 1-5 may have originated with HU and then Monte which was of course rolled in the same factory. The HU naming system might have been in place since well before 1900. 

[Glass Half Full]

4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I'd guess some brands simply copied or imitated the "numbers" effectively making them somewhat standard in the early 20th century. The first brand to do it was probably a small one that wanted to seem similar to a large famous one. Also smaller producers would often contract with the largest factories like HU and Partagas to roll their cigars so it would make sense that some interchangeability in vitola and model names would occur just by virtue of that. 

It's quite possible the standard of vitolas named 1-5 may have originated with HU and then Monte which was of course rolled in the same factory. The HU naming system might have been in place since well before 1900. 

Hats off. 

[raggie]

What convenient timing. I’m reading through my Habano Moderno book and just read this section. Here’s an excerpt:

 

tldr:

“Prior to 1980, each factory had its own set of names for its cigars. If two different factories manufactured a cigar in the same size, they each called them by different names as they pleased. […]”

After 1980, “factory sizes [vitola as we call it] were consolidated across all factories, with standard names and dimensions used thereafter.

[Li Bai]

8 hours ago, Jerryvonkramer said:

Following the Monty line:

The 1 is a Cervantes (Lonsdale)

The 2 is a Piramides

The 3 is a Corona

The 4 is a Mareva

and the 5 is a Perla

 

There is still the Fonseca 1 which a Lonsdale, Diplomaticos 1, Upmann 1, Allones 1, Partagas 1 all discontinued.

Diplomaticos 2, Upmann 2, Partagas Serie P2 all still going.

Diplomaticos 3, Upmann 3 both discontinued

Diplomaticos 4 and 5, Upmann 4 and 5 all discontinued

 

However, there are other strange continuities. For example:

 

Juan Lopez Seleccion No.1 is a Corona Gorda, Hoyo Epicure 1 is also one.

Juan Lopez Seleccion No. 1 is a Robousto, Hoyo Epicure 2 is also one.

 

Does anyone know if there is an rhyme or reason to any of this? Something that has been bugging me for years.

 

 

8 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I'd guess some brands simply copied or imitated the "numbers" effectively making them somewhat standard in the early 20th century. The first brand to do it was probably a small one that wanted to seem similar to a large famous one. Also smaller producers would often contract with the largest factories like HU and Partagas to roll their cigars so it would make sense that some interchangeability in vitola and model names would occur just by virtue of that. 

It's quite possible the standard of vitolas named 1-5 may have originated with HU and then Monte which was of course rolled in the same factory. The HU naming system might have been in place since well before 1900. 

I've heard José Andrès Colmena (national brand ambassador at Tabacalera, Spain) say the numbers and letters referred to an early 20th century system, just like @NSXCIGAR mentions.

The numbers referred to the length and the letters to the cepo of the cigar.

Let's take the Partagas D4 for example:

D = 50 rg.      4 = 124 mm

The D4, D5, D6 all have a 50 RG. The Monte 4 as (approximately) the same length as a D4, 129mm and 124mm. The P in P2 must refer to the 52 rg and the 2 to 156mm.

Those are only remains of a former classification system which is neither in place nor accurate anymore.

I couldn't find anything more about that matter outside of that interview, so take it for what it is, but I found that interesting. 👍

[ATGroom]

@NSXCIGAR has basically said it.

The names are just marketing,

Pre-revolution, most of the big factories had a few brands in their stable, so they might have some standardisation between their line names across their brands, ie, Montecristo and H. Upmann for "this is the strong version, this is the light one" marketing.

Post-revolution the new cigars are all managed centrally, so the logic sometimes goes "we don't have a piramides in Partagas, let's add one, we'll call it No.2 like the Montecristo." Other times it goes "we have a Connoisseur No.1, let's add a slightly bigger one and call it No.2."

But beyond that, there is no rule like "all 2s equal X." They call them what they call them based on whatever logic fits their branding when the cigar is created. Ie, Monte No.2, Monte Especiales No.2, Cohiba Siglo II, Upmann Connossieur No.2, Hoyo Epicure No.2, Partagas Maduro No.2, Partagas Serie du Connasisseur No.2, Romeo Cedros de Luxe No.2, Romeo No.2, La Gloria Medaille d'Or No.2 are all different sizes.

[Jerryvonkramer]

Terrific information here, thanks all!!

[KCCubano]

14 hours ago, ATGroom said:

@NSXCIGAR has basically said it.

The names are just marketing,

Pre-revolution, most of the big factories had a few brands in their stable, so they might have some standardisation between their line names across their brands, ie, Montecristo and H. Upmann for "this is the strong version, this is the light one" marketing.

Post-revolution the new cigars are all managed centrally, so the logic sometimes goes "we don't have a piramides in Partagas, let's add one, we'll call it No.2 like the Montecristo." Other times it goes "we have a Connoisseur No.1, let's add a slightly bigger one and call it No.2."

But beyond that, there is no rule like "all 2s equal X." They call them what they call them based on whatever logic fits their branding when the cigar is created. Ie, Monte No.2, Monte Especiales No.2, Cohiba Siglo II, Upmann Connossieur No.2, Hoyo Epicure No.2, Partagas Maduro No.2, Partagas Serie du Connasisseur No.2, Romeo Cedros de Luxe No.2, Romeo No.2, La Gloria Medaille d'Or No.2 are all different sizes.

One must wonder what the ring gauge will be for the H.Upmann Connossieur No 8 when that hits the market down the road.

[NSXCIGAR]

12 hours ago, KCCubano said:

One must wonder what the ring gauge will be for the H.Upmann Connossieur No 8 when that hits the market down the road.

Don't know but Partagas goes both ways with the Serie line. P1 is smaller than P2, E1 larger than E2 and D5 & D6 smaller than D4. 

In terms of vitola name however it's almost universal that the higher the number the larger or longer the cigar with the exception of the D5 and D6 which are vitola names and do give credence to the "D" having been historically used for 50 RGs. 

[ATGroom]

8 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

In terms of vitola name however it's almost universal that the higher the number the larger or longer the cigar 

Not sure you've totally thought that through... I'd say the opposite is true or at best there is no trend...🤪

 

I.e., Monte, Upmann, Diplomatico 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (lower number is bigger cigar)

Cohiba Siglo (bigger is bigger)

Romeo Tubos 1, 2, 3 (smaller is bigger)

Upmann Connoisseur (bigger is bigger, but it's only two cigars and there are also letters)

Hoyo Epicure (smaller is longer and thinner)

Partagas Maduro (1 is middle length and girth, 2 is shortest and fattest, 3 is longest and thinnest)

La Gloria Medaille d'Or (smaller is longer)

Partagas Serie (smaller number is longer cigar, except when it's P and some of the ELs)

[NSXCIGAR]

16 hours ago, ATGroom said:

Not sure you've totally thought that through... I'd say the opposite is true or at best there is no trend.

Yes, I meant smaller the number the larger the cigar and only in terms of vitola name, e.g. Hermosos 1-4, Maravillas 1-4 (although the recent Maravillas No. 5 is larger than the No. 2). So recently the trend has been no consistent pattern.