Finding RH sweet spot ain’t easy - Tunneling problem

[PigFish]

...folks, I have 'playfully' studied this topic for decades now. Finding factual data is not easy actually. It requires a lot of research or empirical study on one's own. In order to study this, what is commonly referred to as water activity, one needs some specialty equipment, a water activity scale and a means to store hygroscopic substance with some consistency. I own both!

There is published data, but finding it requires a lot of time and a lot of reading. I know, I have done the research. I am not guessing, I KNOW what I am talking about.

I have displayed this before. This is not my original work, but the product of a billion dollar industry studying the same things we are talking about. I found it, xRefed it in CAD and reproduced it in an easy to see pdf. This chart represents burly tobacco isosteric for EMC. This will be similar, but not exact for cigar tobacco. It is good enough for our purposes.

Believe it, deny it, make excuses about it... I don't give a shit! Not understanding it is your loss, not mine.

This is how tobacco acts in the temperature/rH ranges that we talk about.

The green line tell you all you need to know about storing tobacco and the relationship between tobacco, water and heat. 9% EMC for this tobacco can be found along a host of ranges of rH and temp. My point is proven if you believe that the cigarette industry knows more than most cigars smokers. I copied this form data provided by a major cigarette producer.

Cheers! 

[MrBirdman]

9 minutes ago, PigFish said:

...folks, I have 'playfully' studied this topic for decades now. Finding factual data is not easy actually. It requires a lot of research or empirical study on one's own. In order to study this, what is commonly referred to as water activity, one needs some specialty equipment, a water activity scale and a means to store hygroscopic substance with some consistency. I own both!

There is published data, but finding it requires a lot of time and a lot of reading. I know, I have done the research. I am not guessing, I KNOW what I am talking about.

I have displayed this before. This is not my original work, but the product of a billion dollar industry studying the same things we are talking about. I found it, xRefed it in CAD and reproduced it in an easy to see pdf. This chart represents burly tobacco isosteric for EMC. This will be similar, but not exact for cigar tobacco. It is good enough for our purposes.

Believe it, deny it, make excuses about it... I don't give a shit! Not understanding it is your loss, not mine.

This is how tobacco acts in the temperature/rH ranges that we talk about.

The green line tell you all you need to know about storing tobacco and the relationship between tobacco, water and heat. 9% EMC for this tobacco can be found along a host of ranges of rH and temp. My point is proven if you believe that the cigarette industry knows more than most cigars smokers. I copied this form data provided by a major cigarette producer.

Cheers! 

Can you provide the source and some more context for this chart? Because if this is a drying table (which is where the vast majority of tobacco moisture research is conducted) then it’s useless. 

[jazzboypro]

I like the graph and the explanations that comes with it. I saw the video a while back on YT. Just out of curiosity what are most people aiming at for the EMC value ? According to my readings (i really don't know how accurate they are) i should be around 11%

[Bijan]

I'll contribute to this discussion by saying that it's A for storage and B for smoking.

Store cigars at 50F and 65% RH and they'll be more humid/moist than when stored 80F and 65% RH.

However smoking cigars at 50F and 100% RH ambient will be better than smoking them at 80F and 100% RH.

This is because we only smoke a cigar for 1-2 hours, and so what matters is not the long term steady state but what happens within those 2 hours.

Also most likely the fact that the cigar is heated by combustion would play in as well.

[Fugu]

24 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Because if this is a drying table (which is where the vast majority of tobacco moisture research is conducted) then it’s useless. 

It isn't. Ray @PigFish is right (of course ). The underlying physics / thermodynamics is universally applicable to all hygroscopic matter. It’s of utmost economic significance, tobacco just being one among a vast range of materials.

Look up e.g. here for an easy reading / understanding:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_moisture_content

Equilibrium moisture content of wood versus humidity and temperature, according to the Hailwood-Horrobin equation.

[PigFish]

20 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Can you provide the source and some more context for this chart? Because if this is a drying table (which is where the vast majority of tobacco moisture research is conducted) then it’s useless. 

Mate, I post here to help people, not to be the smartest guy in the room. I likely have 50K pages of archived reading and if you think that I am going through it again to prove it to you or anyone, then you misunderstand the meaning of goodwill.

As stated, I don't really give a shit about anyone believing me! My value is for my personal consumption and comes via the hundreds, if not thousands of personal correspondence I have received by actually, not theoretically, helping people store cigars.

This one came in my PM this am... and brought me to post on this thread.

Dear Piggy,

 

first of all I want to thank you for such a great scientific explanation behind the optimum cigar environment, in relation to their rH and temperature. As a new people in cigar world, you have helped a lot....

 

My friend THAT is why I post this stuff. Real people getting real benefits from my knowledge. I am not in it for the debate win, I am in it for the service to this community as I have done for near 20 years now.

Now about this mate. You quote some authoritative scientific proof showing the opposite, that I am wrong! Happy researching!!! -LOL

I was  @summoned to this thread for good reason. It is because I have proven to many that I know what I am talking about. That said, the floor is yours.

Cheers! -Ray

 

[MrBirdman]

Cool. Learn something new everyday I guess. Clearly I touched a nerve so I’ll leave it at that. 

This is why I do law for my profession and just smoke cigars. 

 

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

It isn't. Ray @PigFish is right (of course ). The underlying physics / thermodynamics is universally applicable to all hygroscopic matter. It’s of utmost economic significance, tobacco just being one among a vast range of materials.

Look up e.g. here for an easy reading / understanding:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_moisture_content

Equilibrium moisture content of wood versus humidity and temperature, according to the Hailwood-Horrobin equation.

Thank you for posting an article rather than just a chart without context. This actually explained it really well!

[PigFish]

44 minutes ago, jazzboypro said:

I like the graph and the explanations that comes with it. I saw the video a while back on YT. Just out of curiosity what are most people aiming at for the EMC value ? According to my readings (i really don't know how accurate they are) i should be around 11%

The EMC is largely of little interest to me. What I was looking for when I did my research was the relationships. EMC will vary due to differences in tobacco. The proper EMC will become empirical to your smoking and storing.

My advice is forget about trying to trace/track EMC as a unit of measure. Track taste and cigar experience performance from changing your storage regimen. Winning is about making your cigars as good as they can be, not knowing the EMC.

All, my humble opinion! Cheers! -tP

[jazzboypro]

2 minutes ago, PigFish said:

The EMC is largely of little interest to me. What I was looking for when I did my research was the relationships. EMC will vary due to differences in tobacco. The proper EMC will become empirical to your smoking and storing.

My advice is forget about trying to trace/track EMC as a unit of measure. Track taste and cigar experience performance from changing your storage regimen. Winning is about making your cigars as good as they can be, not knowing the EMC.

All, my humble opinion! Cheers! -tP

Thanks for the info. Lots of experiments to do here. Should be interesting. Thanks again for all the info.

[PigFish]

29 minutes ago, jazzboypro said:

Thanks for the info. Lots of experiments to do here. Should be interesting. Thanks again for all the info.

EMC data is empirical based on the material. If you are really interested in this, you should own something like this:

and also have the means to store with some precision with instruments with verifiable accuracy. Choose and electromagnet balance over a torsion (MHO).

This interest can turn into a project of considerable cost in a hurry, just to let you know. I make my own precision storage as you likely know and I just happen to own one of these scales!!! -LOL

... then there is the cigar costs. I have likely destroyed 150 Partages Chicos and other cigars playing the EMC game. A good reading generally takes a whole Chicos, chopped up to feed the beast! Frankly, while I had some fun doing it, I would have been better off just smoking the cigars and living in ignorace.

Enjoy the ride! -R

[SCgarman]

24 minutes ago, PigFish said:

EMC data is empirical based on the material. If you are really interested in this, you should own something like this:

and also have the means to store with some precision with instruments with verifiable accuracy. Choose and electromagnet balance over a torsion (MHO).

This interest can turn into a project of considerable cost in a hurry, just to let you know. I make my own precision storage as you likely know and I just happen to own one of these scales!!! -LOL

... then there is the cigar costs. I have likely destroyed 150 Partages Chicos and other cigars playing the EMC game. A good reading generally takes a whole Chicos, chopped up to feed the beast! Frankly, while I had some fun doing it, I would have been better off just smoking the cigars and living in ignorace.

Enjoy the ride! -R

"Ignorance is Bliss!"- Anonymous

[gormag38]

18 hours ago, PigFish said:

If you are really interested in this, you should own something like this:

Funny that you posted this here. I work in a lab at a waste water facility where we have an anerobic digester to help get rid of industrial by product and other waste. The key being the production of methane gas to help offset cost/bring in a profit (eventually lol). Knowing the moisture content is a huge component of running an efficient municipal plant. (pumping sludge/disposing of sludge and removing struvite with excess water takes ALOT of money)

Anyways, I just calibrated a couple of these instruments and found them to be pretty spot on with the results I obtained from an EPA method. If anyone is looking to fork over the money to buy one of these 'moisture content balances' I think they'd be pretty happy with the accuracy. 

[Uwiik]

While following @PigFish theories and applying it for my own taste just as he suggested, I went back to my original setup but increased the temp slightly. Now it’s sitting at 62-63 RH at 67-68F/19-20C, anecdotal/totally false or not but my smoke this morning (NC) was slightly more enjoyable and I experienced less burn issue, my Casdagli DOTW Cremello got at least 20-30% of its creaminess back where last week it was all peppery and nothing else, my lips weren’t burning hot either this morning. Due to this, I had a pleasant conversation with my lovely wife and I am happier...much, much happier knowing that at least I am on the right track and all is good in life.

Million of thanks to Ray for his patience and passion in helping fellow members of this forum, you’re a champ!! 

[PigFish]

10 hours ago, Uwiik said:

While following @PigFish theories and applying it for my own taste just as he suggested, I went back to my original setup but increased the temp slightly. Now it’s sitting at 62-63 RH at 67-68F/19-20C, anecdotal/totally false or not but my smoke this morning (NC) was slightly more enjoyable and I experienced less burn issue, my Casdagli DOTW Cremello got at least 20-30% of its creaminess back where last week it was all peppery and nothing else, my lips weren’t burning hot either this morning. Due to this, I had a pleasant conversation with my lovely wife and I am happier...much, much happier knowing that at least I am on the right track and all is good in life.

Million of thanks to Ray for his patience and passion in helping fellow members of this forum, you’re a champ!!

Cheers brother! Thank you for the complement. -R

[Uwiik]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

Cheers brother! Thank you for the complement. -R

Thank you for the invaluable knowledge brother!!! 

[jazzboypro]

19 hours ago, Uwiik said:

While following @PigFish theories and applying it for my own taste just as he suggested, I went back to my original setup but increased the temp slightly. Now it’s sitting at 62-63 RH at 67-68F/19-20C, anecdotal/totally false or not but my smoke this morning (NC) was slightly more enjoyable and I experienced less burn issue, my Casdagli DOTW Cremello got at least 20-30% of its creaminess back where last week it was all peppery and nothing else, my lips weren’t burning hot either this morning. Due to this, I had a pleasant conversation with my lovely wife and I am happier...much, much happier knowing that at least I am on the right track and all is good in life.

Million of thanks to Ray for his patience and passion in helping fellow members of this forum, you’re a champ!!

I thought it would take more than a week for a change of RH/TEMP to have any impact on cigars especially if the humidor contains a lot of cigars. I need to test that.

[vladdraq]

The wrapper humidity changes instantly, probably the binder follows in a few hours.

[Uwiik]

On 11/13/2023 at 4:09 AM, PigFish said:

You should also take a hard look at what you use for reporting your conditions... your thermometer/hygrometer. Some of these gadgets are way... way wrong.

Cheers!

This got me thinking. I calibrated my hygrometer for 24hr at 18.5C (65F) with a couple of 60 grams 62% Boveda in a small airtight container, container is so small it just fit the Bovedas and one hygrometer tightly. Many people said Boveda always overshoot by 1-2% in a small airtight container, is it true? If it’s true then I need to re calibrate my hygrometer taking Boveda overshoot tendency into account. Please advise, thanks so much!! 

[Ford2112]

7 hours ago, Uwiik said:

This got me thinking. 

Oh man. That always gets me in trouble! I say keep it simple, try and get a consistent temp and rh over an extended period of time. Your cigars aren't delicate little things.

[GoodStix]

7 hours ago, Uwiik said:

 I calibrated my hygrometer for 24hr at 18.5C (65F) with a couple of 60 grams 62% Boveda in a small airtight container…. Many people said Boveda always overshoot by 1-2% in a small airtight container, is it true? If it’s true then I need to re calibrate my hygrometer taking Boveda overshoot tendency into account. Please advise, thanks so much!! 

I’m no expert, but I’ll share what I’ve experienced. I’ve calibrated many hygrometers, many times, using Boveda 75% calibration kits. They recommend calibrating at a temp between 65 and 75F. So I always calibrate at 70F. And for a few days. 24 hours isn’t enough, they change slightly if you give it another day or two. You’ve used 65F, perhaps 70F (smack in the middle of their recommended range) might be best. After calibrating, I’ve moved the hygrometers into a small airtight container with a new 12 pack (after opening them all) of 62% Bovedas at 70F.  I’ve found that (after a couple days) the hygrometers read 63%.

[Uwiik]

12 hours ago, Ford2112 said:

Oh man. That always gets me in trouble! I say keep it simple, try and get a consistent temp and rh over an extended period of time. Your cigars aren't delicate little things.

I am that OCD 😝, tend to overthink everything, perhaps due to my “high demand” childhood where perfection was demanded at everything at all times, my mom was a tiger mom God rest her soul.

Thanks for reminding me and push my brake for me, but this is definitely not done yet, I’ll ask a few more questions so the next victim of cigar OCD can read this thread long into the future/ 😁

I’ll ask anyway now,  there is no way I ruined the oil and sugar on my cigar by doing 60-61% at 69-70F for 4 days right? Cigar travels by plane on a cargo hull are exposed to extreme temperatures and humidity, 20-35% is common down there and the cigars are fine enduring that extreme stress? Despite many here vouching for 60-62% at 70F as the perfect setup but the result for me was definitely way too dry, at least for my palate and now I am still super paranoid that I might somehow permanently evaporated some of the goodies during my experiment. I smoked a Montecristo Petit Edmundo from a known good box last night and it was definitely still tasted burning hot, harsh and tasteless but my Padron has continued to recover nicely. Smoked another Padron just now and I can definitely tasted more pronounced creaminess that I can still taste long after the last puff… 

To answer @GoodStix, using your logic is it safe to assume that my Govee are reading approx 1% lower than reality? I don’t use 75% Boveda for calibration because every time I use 75% the subsequent 2nd calibration confirmation using 65% Boveda always showed quite a discrepancy. My logic told me since I will be running 65-67F at 62-65% RH so I should calibrate my Govee using similar parameters? 

[PigFish]

If you have a relatively good scale you can watch cigars take or lose water in ambients that range significantly from your humidor. It is the small incremental changes deep in the cigar that take more time.

Like a head of lettuce will often display oxidation and deterioration of outside leaves, you may still net a nice salad from what is inside due to the nature of how water moves in hydroscopic matter. The comparison is for illustration of a point only!

[PigFish]

… agree with statements from above. Cigars are pretty robust creatures.

Take a cigar of no significant value. Clip it and toss it in the glove box of your car. Leave it there for a month. Pull it out and smoke it with an open mind. If it is Cuban. You may be delighted with what you find. If not, it could be you don’t like dryer tobacco, or the cugar was not so good in the first place. 

[Uwiik]

5 hours ago, PigFish said:

If you have a relatively good scale you can watch cigars take or lose water in ambients that range significantly from your humidor. It is the small incremental changes deep in the cigar that take more time.

Like a head of lettuce will often display oxidation and deterioration of outside leaves, you may still net a nice salad from what is inside due to the nature of how water moves in hydroscopic matter. The comparison is for illustration of a point only!

I rest my case and I’ll have a good sleep tonight, thanks!! 

[GoodStix]

12 hours ago, Uwiik said:

To answer @GoodStix, using your logic is it safe to assume that my Govee are reading approx 1% lower than reality? I don’t use 75% Boveda for calibration because every time I use 75% the subsequent 2nd calibration confirmation using 65% Boveda always showed quite a discrepancy. My logic told me since I will be running 65-67F at 62-65% RH so I should calibrate my Govee using similar parameters? 

I don't know for certain.  I can only say that when Boveda has a 62% or 65% pack, you have to ask yourself "yes, but at what temp?".  RH is relative to temp.  I've never seen Boveda state the temp for its 62% or 65% packs.  But they do with the 75% calibration kits, namely 65F to 75F.  Given no other info from Boveda, I assume the same temp range for the 62% and 65% packs, meaning I expect that at 70F (mid-range) a 62% pack will result in roughly that.  In my experience (as posted earlier above) the actual result has consistently been 63% at 70F.  If if drop the temp, the RH reading is (of course) higher.  But I calibrate at 70F, so I only really pay attention to that.