US considering returning Cuba to terrorism list

[boopdeep]

 

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiELIQKY5hocei95OwGBxWwwAqFAgEKgwIACoFCAowhgIwkDgw0O8B?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen

[Subcomandante]

Cuba is barely hanging on. Who are they terrorizing? 

[Nino]

2 hours ago, Subcomandante said:

Cuba is barely hanging on. Who are they terrorizing? 

Their own population mostly plus Venezuela ...

[Meklown]

I'm curious to understand the American perspective on this topic. 

As with forum rules, let's try to avoid politics, and stick to the facts as much as we can. 

I understand that conflict between Cuba and America has stretched back many years, culminating in the Cold War & missile crisis where Russia placed some missiles on the island - it is pretty straightforward to understand why the embargo was being put in place at that time. However, since the end of that conflict, there hasn't been much, if any, provocation (from what I read/know - please correct me if I'm wrong) from Cuba towards America. So why is America still treating them so badly? Why still maintain the embargo? The embargo is surely hurting the Cuban citizens much more than the ruling elite?

The two key questions that spring to my mind would be - 

1. Is Cuba being punished simply for having a different governing ideology from the Americans?

2. If America claims to be "doing this for the Cuban citizens", how do they envisage the embargo or placing the country on a terrorism list helping the Cuban citizens?

[bpm32]

26 minutes ago, Meklown said:

1. Is Cuba being punished simply for having a different governing ideology from the Americans?

2. If America claims to be "doing this for the Cuban citizens", how do they envisage the embargo or placing the country on a terrorism list helping the Cuban citizens?

I’ve always assumed it’s because Cuban-Americans favor a hard line approach. Many of them are single issue voters on this, which makes their votes more powerful. There might be plenty of Americans that would favor ending the embargo, but they aren’t all in one place, and there are many other issues they care more about.

[Meklown]

4 minutes ago, bpm32 said:

Cuban-Americans favor a hard line approach

Why would they wish for that if it would be their friends/relatives back on the island who are going to suffer?

[bpm32]

22 minutes ago, Meklown said:

Why would they wish for that if it would be their friends/relatives back on the island who are going to suffer?

I’ve often wondered why myself. From a practical standpoint, Cuban-Americans do apparently send a lot of money back to relatives still living on the island, so I suspect people with US relatives do a lot better.

The anger that some older Cuban-Americans have is understandable, but respectfully, I think it’s healthier to move on. My grandfather’s family lost huge amounts of land to the communists in Southern China, and I suppose he has every right to be bitter, but he isn’t—in fact, he considers himself to be blessed.

 

[Dozerhead]

Its ironic if they put Cuba on that list while still doing business with other countries that engage in global sponsored terrorism. 

[Capt. Corona]

55 minutes ago, Dozerhead said:

Its ironic if they put Cuba on that list while still doing business with other countries that engage in global sponsored terrorism. 

Makes 100% sense, doesn't it????  But so much in the behind the scenes does, right?

[ElJavi76]

4 hours ago, Meklown said:

Why would they wish for that if it would be their friends/relatives back on the island who are going to suffer?

Being a native son of the island gives me a diff perspective. (Not right. Not wrong.)

I think for exiled Cubans it's a matter of principle. Yes, I do believe it's a skewed perspective because many of us still have family back there. I do! However, the way most of us left the island, shunned and made to feel like less than human... Tough to let go of. Cubans have one thing that works against us... We're proud to a fault. To Cuban Americans the embargo is a political stance against the Castro's, and has nothing to do with the citizens/family left behind. Ironically, I know Cubans that won't return to Cuba unless the communists are gone. They approve of the embargo but still send money to relatives. It's a sticky situation. It's one of these bite your nose to spite your face situations. You know it's not good and it proves close to nothing, but it's an amulet against the awful communists. 

Raul can die and communism might end one day... But let's be honest. The Castro's won. They beat a population into submission and had a death grip on that island for over 6 decades. Funny thing is they did it all with smoke and mirrors. If you read the history, Fidel had less than 50 guys in the Sierra Maestra at one point. Love em or hate em, the dude was a magician. 

I was born there in '76 and came to the US in 1980. You're bred to hate communism and everything it embodies. Like I said, the embargo might do very little today except comfort those who lost their life back there. Cubans can remain salty, apparently. LoL

[Nino]

6 hours ago, Meklown said:

I'm curious to understand the American perspective on this topic. 

As with forum rules, let's try to avoid politics, and stick to the facts as much as we can. 

I understand that conflict between Cuba and America has stretched back many years, culminating in the Cold War & missile crisis where Russia placed some missiles on the island - it is pretty straightforward to understand why the embargo was being put in place at that time. However, since the end of that conflict, there hasn't been much, if any, provocation (from what I read/know - please correct me if I'm wrong) from Cuba towards America. So why is America still treating them so badly? Why still maintain the embargo? The embargo is surely hurting the Cuban citizens much more than the ruling elite?

The two key questions that spring to my mind would be - 

1. Is Cuba being punished simply for having a different governing ideology from the Americans?

2. If America claims to be "doing this for the Cuban citizens", how do they envisage the embargo or placing the country on a terrorism list helping the Cuban citizens?

I'll try to give you my European perspective from my visits there as well as some links of interest :

Quote

However, since the end of that conflict, there hasn't been much, if any, provocation (from what I read/know - please correct me if I'm wrong) from Cuba towards America.

There have been many cases of Cuban interference, both military and political, in other countries affairs contrary to the western ( not necessarily US ) policies.
African conflicts like Ethiopia, Somalia, Namibia, Angola and Mozambique come to my mind plus many other interferences in Latin America from Bolivia to Nicaragua to Venezuela presently.

 

Quote

1. Is Cuba being punished simply for having a different governing ideology from the Americans?

So why is America still treating them so badly? Why still maintain the embargo? The embargo is surely hurting the Cuban citizens much more than the ruling elite?

To your #1 : No. Not since the fall of the Soviet Union and the collapse of communism.

Cuba is not socialist or communist as it claims to be, just a corrupt cleptocracy run by the military.

As for the "embargo" : The "embargo" is a common misunderstanding - which is used by the Cuban gvmt as a great and poor excuse for all and any failures and by many outside of Cuba who don't know better.

There is no embargo, Cuba is free to trade with all countries and in fact receives ca. 70% of its food from the USA, paid cash in advance.

Here some older figures :

Although economic sanctions are in place, in 2012, the United States was Cuba’s primary supplier of food and agricultural products, and humanitarian goods, a significant supplier of medicines and medical products, and Cuba’s seventh overall largest trading partner in goods.

 

Source : US Dept. of State : http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2886.ht

 

This article on food in Cuba might also open your eyes as to the so-called US embargo.

 

There is an "internal embargo" in Cuba imposed by the gvmt - which is what all dissidents accuse the Cuban gvmt. of, which consists in the economy being 75% controlled by the military - Google GAESA, the military holding company running all hotels, tourist resorts, bus companies, tour operators etc.

PS : Here is a good article explaining GAESA.

Many countries ( or rather most ) prefer not to deal with Cuba as it has never paid its debt, does not allow transfer of currency for foreign companies and even the Chinese Embassy in HAV warns its companies of dealing with Cuba.

There is an absurd two-currencies economy with Cubans earning 500 CUP or 20US$ a month but being only able to buy neccessities in tourist money CUC at overblown prices ( 1 l of cooking oil 8 CUC or 8 US$ and 2 hrs waiting in line ).

The running elite has their own shops and privileges ... the only foreign currency earning was via tourism and medical services with Cuba keeping 75% to 90% of the doctor's salaries as you can read here.

Quote

As with forum rules, let's try to avoid politics, and stick to the facts as much as we can.

This documentary will show you what the Cuban youth and the dissidents feel about their situation and repression :

https://vimeo.com/11187489

Finally - here is the Human Rights report 2019 for Cuba.

You may find why I say that Cuba terrorizes its citizens there ...

 

 

 

[Meklown]

2 hours ago, nino said:

There is no embargo, Cuba is free to trade with all countries

Thank you and @BoliDan and @ElJavi76 for the write-ups, I appreciate it a lot! It is good to know all sides of the story.

However for the quote above, I am confused because it is to my understanding that banks or other financial institutions are not allowed to trade with Cuba (or allow anyone trading with Cuba to bank with them), otherwise they risk their USD clearing capabilities. This effectively bans all trade with Cuba. It is a good thing that America is providing Cuba with food for the people, but effectively this is required because America bans anyone else from doing so? 

 

2 hours ago, BoliDan said:

The US would then be-friend (as well as arm) the opposing forces

Wouldn't this be effectively America being the "terrorist" for pursuing regime change in a foreign territory? E.g. if China tries to take over Taiwan through equivalent actions, it would expect to face international condemnation? 

[Subcomandante]

I wonder how much of it is the old fear of communism from older politicians. How much is the continued punishment for not following the rules of “do what America wants you to do”. How much is a message to other countries specifically Latin American countries to accept US intervention, coups, and puppet dictators or this could happen to you? How much is no one wants to be the guy to appear soft and ease up on Cuba, though the opposite seems to be happening with North Korea. No one wants to admit the embargo didn’t work to overthrow the Cuban govt. How much is their needs to be a boogeyman close to home to stoke fear at home. And to be honest how much does Florida being a swing state that can win a presidential election have to do with it. Wanting that Cuban American vote in Florida that favors the hardline one issue vote. I just find it hard to believe Cuba is a serious threat to terrorism like other countries. 

[El Presidente]

And here I was  thinking  who would be the first  member to get a weekend break from FOH 

 

I am so proud 

[ElJavi76]

20 minutes ago, Subcomandante said:

And to be honest how much does Florida being a swing state that can win a presidential election have to do with it. Wanting that Cuban American vote in Florida that favors the hardline one issue vote. I just find it hard to believe Cuba is a serious threat to terrorism like other countries. 

A couple of things I agree with you on... The embargo didn't work, would be a big embarrassment for America. To hold a policy for so long, only to give it up for nothing in the end. Yes! Egg on the face. I don't think Cuba is any more dangerous than China, and I'll just leave that one right there. LoL

However, the whole Florida swing state thing. Exiled Cubans will never vote D in America. I repeat, it's bred into us to have real disdain for the left. Hopefully, just politically and not with any foolish action. So, if free elections were held tomorrow in Havana... Florida Cubans would still tilt right. Heavily! But I understand why others would think that hard-line stance would call out to single issue Cuban-American voters. 

Just my .02¢

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, Meklown said:

 

Wouldn't this be effectively America being the "terrorist" for pursuing regime change in a foreign territory? E.g. if China tries to take over Taiwan through equivalent actions, it would expect to face international condemnation? 

I suspect China would take a more direct option.

The US administration at the time is entitled to take whatever sanction action it wants....regardless how futile.

What it isn't entitled to is to disrupt international financing by fining non US global institutions facilitating direct or indirect business with Cuba. That is an embargo and  the only area i disagree with Nino on.

The world should tell them to shove their fines where the sun dont shine but they have been bullied into submission.  Shame on them.

 

 

[Nino]

3 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

What it isn't entitled to is to disrupt international financing by fining global institutions facilitating direct business with Cuba. That is an embargo and  the only area i disagree with Nino on.

The world should tell them to shove their fines where the sun dont shine but they have been bullied into submission.  Shame on them.

 

No problem @El Presidente - happy to have you disagreeing in a very civil discussion as it should be.

My only objection would be as to what "global institutions" have "direct business" with Cuba as all the foreign businessmen I have encountered in Cuba - from Spain to Argentina to Mexico to China have had bad experiences leading up to bankruptcy by not being paid by the Cuban gvmt for their services for many years, not just the current crisis.

As for financial services - I just sent some money via my German bank account to a Cuban friend last week and it arrived just fine. Just a normal transfer - bank-to-bank.

 

 

[Colt45]

12 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

The world should tell them to shove their fines where the sun dont shine but they have been bullied into submission.  Shame on them.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda - the world chose $$$ over "the good of the people"

Have a great weekend!

[El Presidente]

6 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

Shoulda, coulda, woulda - the world chose $$$ over "the good of the people"

Have a great weekend!

If only they had oil or cheap manufacturing 

...all would have been forgiven 

Have a great weekend Ross!

 

[El Presidente]

18 minutes ago, nino said:

 

As for financial services - I just sent some money via my German bank account to a Cuban friend last week and it arrived just fine. Just a normal transfer - bank-to-bank.

 

 

It is a huge issue Nino. 

Banks are fined for facilitating wire transactions involving commerce aiding Cuba. 

It is one of the main reasons suitors for imperial were light on. China works outside of the normal banking system. 

Even distributors have trouble sending money to HO or even setting up banking facilities in some jurisdictions.

Good on your German bank!

 

[Nino]

3 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

It is a huge issue Nino. 

Good on your German bank!

 

Just a normal online transaction here - although I had to download and fill a form by my bank for the transfer but that was it, sent a 700€ transfer to Cuba, arrived within 3 days there, no problems.

Again - my issue with the embargo is that of an internal Cuban one, not an specific foreign one.

But I accept your issues as the sums involved would be not comparable.

 

[Nino]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

That is an embargo and  the only area i disagree with Nino on.

I am certain you will also disagree with the internal "embargo" placed on Cubans who want to use a public beach in Varadero but the Cuban gvmt prevents them and insists that it would be "molesting foreigners".

 

[CaptainQuintero]

Why is it still in place? The original reasons have gone, the world trades freely with communist nations now, in fact many try to court their favour!

  To be honest I think the only reason why it's still in place now is that no one wants to lose face or look like they are giving in to the other. There isn't any statesperson of any note left that could act as a middleman. I suspect it will carry on as it suits both governments.

[bpm32]

5 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

Why is it still in place? The original reasons have gone, the world trades freely with communist nations now, in fact many try to court their favour!

  To be honest I think the only reason why it's still in place now is that no one wants to lose face or look like they are giving in to the other. There isn't any statesperson of any note left that could act as a middleman. I suspect it will carry on as it suits both governments.

I suppose there’s also inertia. The president doesn’t have the authority to end the embargo, and getting the US Congress to agree on something with no obvious gain for either side would be somewhat problematic. 

[Ryan]

I wonder how long the current system in Cuba would last if the embargo (or whatever it should be called) just "went away".

I've heard more than one person in Cuba tell me (quietly) "the greatest ally Castro ever had was the embargo." 

It has been the perfect excuse for a poorly managed, corrupt economy.

"No Bread?", it's the Embargo!

"Buildings falling down killing people?" Embargo! etc.

I completely believe it. There is no population of any country which likes the idea of outside influence.

A very close analogy, Ireland is also a traditionally poor agricultural Island nation, with a historically more powerful neighbour which has had all kinds of influence here, politically, economically and culturally.

We could have a Prime Minister here who is polling at 30% popularity, generally due to the economy. If a British politician says a single word against him/her, they almost immediately poll over 50%. Kind of a cultural "scr*w you guys!"

If the embargo went away, the regime would have no excuses. I think there would be rapid change. Not all of it necessarily good. Most of it, probably.