the monumentally appalling wallabies

[Ken Gargett]

this is from an email chain from a bunch of rugby mates. none of them are happy. the XXXX is necessary as what i actually wrote would have transgressed foh guidelines. 

go, clown, go. 

 

 

I was going to save the migraine.

Watched the tape this morning not knowing the result. I know we have beaten the welsh for a squillion games straight, but a lot were not convincing and given their form, if we got within 20 points, it would have been a poor showing from them. But congrats to them for the win. I'm sure they'd take it in any form.

That said, today is the anniversary of the centenary of Remembrance Day. My grandfather was one of so many thousands who fought for this country. He spent 3 1/2 years in the trenches in France. More injuries than one could count. Shot, disease, blown up several times, gassed. Others of course, suffered even more and lost their lives. They did it for this country and for us. If they had seen the wallabies play recently, I reckon they would have said 'bugger this' and packed up and come home. It is not worth it.

Positives? Good old fashioned game with some solid defence but bog average attack. Neither side really looked much like scoring a try. Kerevi did drop the ball with an open line. But he still had about ten yards to go so anything could have happened.

Our lineout pretty awful - crucial throws failed. I see they described the last throw by tolota pn as a cricket wide. The scrum was bested by wales, though better when Tupou came on. Although no doubt Fletch would have a better take on the forwards.

Pocock was awesome. Yet again. Loved that the woman doing post interviews said, 'now we welcome the wallaby captain, david pocock'. Hooper saw no humour in that at all, even if all Aussie rugby fans went 'if only'!!!

Thought Genia was next best.

Wales could have been well ahead - or at least half a dozen more - if halfpenny had kicked liked he normally does. Missing from in front 20 yards out? He'd normally get a thousand in a row.

After all the fuss about the non-penalty by the world's worst ref, that spineless tosser gardner, last week (and my lord it surely had to be a yellow and penalty every day of the week, given what we have seen for five years), I thought we escaped one when Kerevi took out halfpenny. Other than that, I thought the kiwi ref was very good.

But Cheika, to me, again showed why he is not up to this. We have the same players doing the same crap and getting the same results game after game after game, and yet for some insane reason, he thinks we'll do better if we repeat it all again the next time.

I know some people saying coleman was man of the match but he dropped balls and gave away penalties. But tried his heart out so hard to criticise.

Rodda was pretty solid but has room for improvement.

Hooper. The best reason for opposing xxxxxxxxxxxxxx I can think of. Half the time on the wing being useless. Half the time in the middle playing as hard as he can. But he is not the player he was. Worn out? He'd be an ideal infusion from the bench with ten to fifteen to go (especially if we were 30 points up). But yet again, he proved that he and the word captaincy do not belong in the same sentence, unless 'has lost the' is also there. Utterly braindead. But he is from nsw so of course we'll persist. Ditto the clown. It is an insult to the f-jones, gregans, eales, loanes and others that he is the wallaby captain. He is so so so stupid. We are fifty or sixty minutes into a game where no tries are looking like being scored and the score is 3-3. A penalty in front. Aliens from other planets who have never even heard of rugby would go, 'take the points'. A four year old schoolboy in his first game? 'take the points'. Not this moron. We kick it out and cock up the play and turn it over. But wait, the rugby gods must hate wales because they give us another penalty in another easy position. Surely he has learnt? Not a chance. Soup-for-brains does the same thing again. Kick it out and we lose the line-out. Now if we had the top line-out in the world, it would still be dumb. Ours is a schmozzle but we still do it. Later on, he decides to take the kick from a much much more difficult spot and of course, it sails over to bring us back level. This idiot could not captain the under six tiddly-winks squad.

And Cheika persists with him. Not once or twice but dozens of times. Which makes Cheika even more stupid than him. Meanwhile of course, the world's best number 7 is forced to play out of position so this imbecile can even be in the team.

Moving on out.

Beale. Kurtley, the tryline is the white line upon which those big posts stand. Not the lines up and down the side. Try running straight. Please. Try not doing it all on your own. And never ever try kicking. The only time I ever want to hear of you kicking is if you've kicked the can. Also, tackling involves more than trying to rip out the ball. Which I think you have done successfully not once this year. Grab the bloke. Hang on. Bring him down. It is not a tackle if you end up on your arse looking at the sky.

Finally, foley. You are not quade. You don't have to prove you can out-quade quade. Play sensibly. Stop the no-look crap. When the backline is all lined out (and that includes those very rare occasions when we do not have a prop at first receiver - why, clown, why?), catch and pass. Do not try some lary stupid swat-on. That cost us a great attacking position and lost us 20 metres. You are the compelling evidence why Nathan Grey should crawl into the darkest cave on the planet and never emerge. How long have you worked with him? Years? And yet you still can't tackle. What the hell is the point in having a defence coach if he can't coach defence?

Then we come to goldilocks. Ned the dead. I have no idea whether to include him in the forwards or backs. He is neither. That late stupid blatant appallingly moronic penalty - so obvious and right in front of the ref and no attempt to even make the slightest effort to roll away - cost your country a test match. This entire nation hangs its collective head in sharing your shame. Please retire from all rugby at every level immediately. And stay in the northern hemisphere.

Kerevi? Has a plan A. Run hard if he manages to hang on to the ball, which is usually a 50/50 proposition. Run straight (memo to Kurtley B, take notice), but there is no creativity, no sidestep, almost no offloading ability. So if the opposition can actually pull off a tackle, it is thanks for coming. There is nothing else. And surprise, other teams, being Test standard, have players who can tackle. So that is it. Which brings us to his defence. It actually does not look too bad, but then he is standing outside beale and foley, and that pair would make a witches hat look good. The reality? Heart in mouth every time.

Finally, perhaps Fletch might have some thoughts on this. There is the big push that all super rugby coaches should heed the instructions from the national coach as far as who they play and when they play them and in what positions, which I gather is largely what the kiwis do. Thorn has, as I understand it, basically said bugger off and let me do it my way. An example. Cheika wants Tui on the flank, Thorn uses him in the second row. While this might be good in theory, on what planet would anyone follow what that gibbering dill wants. Our lineout gets worse every outing. Our scrum has gone backwards. I'd wager that if we could somehow have the Reds scrum take on the wallaby scrum, it would give it a hiding. Who would you think has more experience, knowledge, coaching ability, when it comes to this stuff? I really hope that Thorn sticks to his guns.

About that migraine.

 

[JohnS]

Would you say this debacle has gone from bad to painful, Ken? I mean we are playing Italy next weekend and we a probably 50/50 to win. The recent games against Argentina were woeful in regards to skills too. I hate sounding like I'm whinging, but we need a direction that is opposite to what we are experiencing now...and I mean simple discipline, cutting out stupid errors and trying to gain field position as well as taking points via penalty kicks, as you've advocated. That's enough from me, for now!

[99call]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

go, clown, go.

nobody.................NOBODY, beats Wales 14 times in a row! Ha

I feel your pain Ken. as a Wales fan, I naturally feel the level of your disappointment to be slightly disrespectful to the quality within the Welsh side, but I know your frustration is all a part of a bigger picture of Aussie rugby, and I can completely see your frustration. 

You are most definitely right, Cheika is poison, he's like a business guru you thinks the dearth of quality can be solved with positive vibes and back patting..............it cant. What you said about the war generation is on the money. The green and gold shirt should only go to those who demonstrating, grit, guile and daring.............not just daring in isolation

With the England NZ game, The Lions tour and a number of recent results with the NH coming out on top, I think it would be pretty silly, not to generally see the gap between NH & SH starting to close. 

Also with the majority of the recent history between Wales and Aussie. it's not as if they've all been one sides spankings.   A great deal of them have been point swings in the the final 10mins.  With international rankings, you should be more upset losing to Scotland. 

 

[Ken Gargett]

2 minutes ago, 99call said:

nobody.................NOBODY, beats Wales 14 times in a row! Ha

I feel your pain Ken. as a Wales fan, I naturally feel the level of your disappointment to be slightly disrespectful to the quality within the Welsh side, but I know your frustration is all a part of a bigger picture of Aussie rugby, and I can completely see your frustration. 

You are most definitely right, Cheika is poison, he's like a business guru you thinks the dearth of quality can be solved with positive vibes and back patting..............it cant. What you said about the war generation is on the money. The green and gold shirt should only go to those who demonstrating, grit, guile and daring.............not just daring in isolation

With the England NZ game, The Lions tour and a number of recent results with the NH coming out on top, I think it would be pretty silly, not to generally see the gap between NH & SH starting to close. 

Also with the majority of the recent history between Wales and Aussie. it's not as if they've all been one sides spankings.   A great deal of them have been point swings in the the final 10mins.  With international rankings, you should be more upset losing to Scotland. 

 

fair point re scotland. and they copped dud decisions which should meant that they had beaten us more than they have.

no disrespect meant to wales (although i'd be surprised if they had not lost more than 14 in a row to the kiwis at some stage). take any win you can. hey, as a skins fan, i do not expect glorious thumpings of inferior opponents. i'm just delirious if we can hang on and bumble our way over the line. 

[99call]

2 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

(although i'd be surprised if they had not lost more than 14 in a row to the kiwis at some stage)

Ha, I think we'd have to go back to the 70s if not the 60s!.  

If there's any positives to take as just a general rugby fan.    The Japan World Cup will be fantastic. For the first time in a long time there are a few teams that could challenge the AB's and the majority of teams all look like they could get a result over one another.  

With a decent coach and some salvaging of your league, the Aussie will be back on form, there is quality there to see, just poorly directed/marshalled. 

[Ken Gargett]

24 minutes ago, 99call said:

Ha, I think we'd have to go back to the 70s if not the 60s!.  

If there's any positives to take as just a general rugby fan.    The Japan World Cup will be fantastic. For the first time in a long time there are a few teams that could challenge the AB's and the majority of teams all look like they could get a result over one another.  

With a decent coach and some salvaging of your league, the Aussie will be back on form, there is quality there to see, just poorly directed/marshalled. 

i've had mates cancel their tickets for japan, so disillusioned are they. still think the all blacks will do it comfortably. 

aussie quality? is it really there? that is perhaps the one thing saving cheika - we are largely crap with no depth. but he must must must get rid of grey and dump hooper as captain. 

props? kepu well past his best and while thor might become a legend, still very young. the rest fairly average. 

hookers? we have 4-5 young ones, and one old one - TPN - and can't decide. like most positions, chieka still swaps back and forth. how the hell can any of these players ever settle and lock down a spot? that said, not one of this lot can hit the proverbial barn door with a throw. they seem to like latu but if you said the sky was blue, he's just as likely to say it isn't, lose his rag and earn a yellow. 

coleman and rodda are decent second rowers. rodda could be a ten year wallaby but still young. of course, not even eales or retalick would look much good in our lineout, given the ball rarely comes anywhere near the jumpers. 

back row. we have an insane coach who insists on playing pocock out of position, hooper who thinks he is half winger and, in the sort of joke not even robin williams could have conceived, a captain. and the depth is hannigan, who would not make the angolan thirds. the old saying, looks like jane, plays like jane. he is truly abysmal. though apparently he talks a huge game. you'd think that would embarrass himself. 

genia not a bad half but past his best and the backup is phibbs, who'd also struggle in angola. 

foley - an embarrassment. past great wallaby flyhalves must hang their heads in shame to be linked to him. the two greatest in living memory, mclean and lynagh, as well as ella and larkham, may as well be from another planet in comparison to this muppet. but who else? well, anyone. give anyone a go. because it can't be any worse. 

this week's centres, wingers, fullback? who really knows though izzy will be pfaffing about somewhere. great talent, utterly lost. and no matter how badly he plays, so will beale. apparently illegal to drop anyone from nsw. 

looking another way, who amongst this raggetty lot would make the great wallaby sides of the past. even the great reds sides? pocock. possibly izzy on a wing. that is it. the rest couldn't slice their oranges. 

 

 

[99call]

7 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

aussie quality? is it really there?

To me that try that Aussie scored against England in the world cup is a snap-shot of their problem.  The interplay between Beale and Foley, was simple, but excellent.  It worked fabulously well, but they've seemed, ever since that point to want to force it, without putting in the hard work in first. 

The core handling skill are noticeably missing, and lord knows your club teams seem to be in a world of pain. but the pack seems to be a great deal more stable than times gone by, and Genia, Pocock, Folau, Beale, their is a dusting of world class players, that are being made to look average, by lack of cohesion/direction. 

I agree that looking into the club game for talent, is like looking into the void. I just think it's going to require a long rebuild, as opposed to a quick fix. This is the problem with a country thats been such a prestigious force in world rugby,  the long rebuild, it just too hard to swallow. It's like the transport network in London, it's bloody awful, but they cannot afford the financial hurt, of tearing it up, and bringing it into the 21st century. 

If it were me, I would be content to forget about this, and the next word cup. Put young hungry kids in with the best of the old guard. Chop the money for the international game, and put it into grass roots.      Sadly though, from everything you guys say, kids just want to play League, Cricket or  AFL, an not Union.  Without heros on the TV, inspiring new talent,  I'm not sure what you can do about this.

Yep, Hooper is terrible, got to go. 

[gweilgi]

8 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

i've had mates cancel their tickets for japan, so disillusioned are they. still think the all blacks will do it comfortably. 

We just booked our tickets.  One Wallabies and one England match (we're a mixed-race couple), and three matches where nothing is at stake because neither team has a snowball's chance in hell of winning anything.  That is where the sport is, where teams play for honour rather than for trophies.  They were the matches I most enjoyed during the last world cup, and I hope to repeat the experience this time.

 

8 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

aussie quality? is it really there? that is perhaps the one thing saving cheika - we are largely crap with no depth. but he must must must get rid of grey and dump hooper as captain. 

props? kepu well past his best and while thor might become a legend, still very young. the rest fairly average. 

hookers? we have 4-5 young ones, and one old one - TPN - and can't decide. like most positions, chieka still swaps back and forth. how the hell can any of these players ever settle and lock down a spot? that said, not one of this lot can hit the proverbial barn door with a throw. they seem to like latu but if you said the sky was blue, he's just as likely to say it isn't, lose his rag and earn a yellow. 

coleman and rodda are decent second rowers. rodda could be a ten year wallaby but still young. of course, not even eales or retalick would look much good in our lineout, given the ball rarely comes anywhere near the jumpers. 

back row. we have an insane coach who insists on playing pocock out of position, hooper who thinks he is half winger and, in the sort of joke not even robin williams could have conceived, a captain. and the depth is hannigan, who would not make the angolan thirds. the old saying, looks like jane, plays like jane. he is truly abysmal. though apparently he talks a huge game. you'd think that would embarrass himself. 

genia not a bad half but past his best and the backup is phibbs, who'd also struggle in angola. 

foley - an embarrassment. past great wallaby flyhalves must hang their heads in shame to be linked to him. the two greatest in living memory, mclean and lynagh, as well as ella and larkham, may as well be from another planet in comparison to this muppet. but who else? well, anyone. give anyone a go. because it can't be any worse. 

this week's centres, wingers, fullback? who really knows though izzy will be pfaffing about somewhere. great talent, utterly lost. and no matter how badly he plays, so will beale. apparently illegal to drop anyone from nsw. 

looking another way, who amongst this raggetty lot would make the great wallaby sides of the past. even the great reds sides? pocock. possibly izzy on a wing. that is it. the rest couldn't slice their oranges. 

OK, so you extensively critique and condemn the current team (ad their coach).  That, though, leaves the Big White Elephant In The Room Question: what is the alternative?  Who would be insane enough to take on the role as Wallabies coach at this point, less than a year before the RWC?  Who would you put up as hookers, props, flyhalves?  

Personally, I think the choice is stark.  Either stick with what there is, however unimpressive, and hope for the best (i.e. a better result than the England team in the last RWC) -- or declare Japan a lost cause, sack everyone and start from scratch looking to build something in time for France 2023.  Anything else is just slapping band aids on sucking chest wounds.  

[Ken Gargett]

8 hours ago, gweilgi said:

OK, so you extensively critique and condemn the current team (ad their coach).  That, though, leaves the Big White Elephant In The Room Question: what is the alternative?  Who would be insane enough to take on the role as Wallabies coach at this point, less than a year before the RWC?  Who would you put up as hookers, props, flyhalves?  

Personally, I think the choice is stark.  Either stick with what there is, however unimpressive, and hope for the best (i.e. a better result than the England team in the last RWC) -- or declare Japan a lost cause, sack everyone and start from scratch looking to build something in time for France 2023.  Anything else is just slapping band aids on sucking chest wounds.  

the minute before i saw your post, i got an email from an old mate (who thinks i am getting mellow - had sent him similar thoughts to what i posted). he is randwick through and through, so anything from randwick is sacred and anything nsw is almost sacred (which is more than half the problem). and despite that, his view is that if we lose to england (which we almost certainly will and i am almost hoping for a massive rout so we can expedite this - prefer to win but not holding my breath) then it is time to blow it all up and start again. 

people forget that this is effectively what we did this time last cup. cheika was brought in around now (actually, i think the anniversary would be last week) and somehow we made the final. so why not again? not ideal but not terminal. perhaps a change like this might energise the team?

as for the new coach, there'd be many hands up. could go with jake white or look around the world. head coach of one of the supposedly top teams in world rugby? they'd fall over themselves for a chance. it might be a tough gig but this is what these people aim for and there are very few opportunities. no one with coaching ambitions will say no, i'll wait till they are doing better, then take it. 

for me, the very least is that nathan grey must go. woeful. he was an awful defender when he played so why even think he could make it as a defence coach. and hooper must not be captain. pocock must go to 7. why have the world's best playing out of position? if you have dennis lillee, do you tell him he is to be the fourth change bowler or that he will be keeping? 

anyone who thinks hannigan is international standard is clearly delusional. must go. 

part of the excuse given for chieka and the team is that there are no, or few, obvious replacements. well find some. that is their job. foley has proved incompetent time after time after time. try something, anything else. it might not be any more successful but this is now the worst wallaby team ever - we have lost 8 out of 11 and the wins cheika has had are mostly sides like fiji, the states, bog average third rate teams. we have nothing to lose. and at the very least, it will provide a new group some experience that may help down the track when overcashed european teams are paying whopping salaries to the overhyped, underperforming hasbeens that currently populate the wallabies. 

[99call]

5 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

we have nothing to lose. and at the very least, it will provide a new group some experience that may help down the track

I think you've hit the nail on the head here Ken.  Unfortunately at the moment, Australia seem to be caught in a vicious circle, i.e you need the new young talent, but obviously connected to that, you need positive international results to inspire that new generation to choose rugby union.     

Unfortunately, in order to get better, it may have to get worse first.    The starting point should be Phipps. There must be a 18yr old somewhere in the country, that could out perform him with ease. 

 

 

 

 

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, 99call said:

I think you've hit the nail on the head here Ken.  Unfortunately at the moment, Australia seem to be caught in a vicious circle, i.e you need the new young talent, but obviously connected to that, you need positive international results to inspire that new generation to choose rugby union.     

Unfortunately, in order to get better, it may have to get worse first.    The starting point should be Phipps. There must be a 18yr old somewhere in the country, that could out perform him with ease. 

pretty much anyone not in a full body cast would outperform phibbs, my preferred tag for him. but here is the problem. he is yet another rusted on nsw player and therefore is a protected species. foley, beale, hannigan, phibbs, hooper, cheika, grey and so on. look at simmons. years playing for the reds and it was made clear to him that he was no longer wanted for the wallabies. dropped, dumped, exiled. he swaps to nsw and it is straight back into the wallabies. had he been playing better? no, he was actually benched for the reds so we could assist chieka with the next generation. but move to nsw and suddenly eligible again. a disgrace. 

i remember the shock on my kiwi fishing guide's face one year when i mentioned that i would support the crusaders against nsw. i would support satan against nsw. was thrown out of a pub in the hunter, along with 6 kiwis i did not know, a few years back when they first played the crusaders for the super title (and lost). my crime. supporting anyone playing nsw. they are the man u or dallas cowboys of rugby/league/cricket/you name it. 

[99call]

11 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

my crime. supporting anyone playing nsw

I have to say out of the Aussie cities I've been to, I was definitely not a fan of Sydney, and can well imagine it to have many a 'prawn sandwich brigade'.  to me it had that London vibe about it, where by if you were having an epileptic fit in the street, you would be more likely filmed and posted on the internet, than actually receive any help from a passer by. 

Sadly never got up to Brisbane or Queensland in general, as (at the time in 98) it was being sold to British backpackers as the Ibiza of Oz. 

[gweilgi]

On 11/12/2018 at 8:57 AM, Ken Gargett said:

pretty much anyone not in a full body cast would outperform phibbs, my preferred tag for him. but here is the problem. he is yet another rusted on nsw player and therefore is a protected species. foley, beale, hannigan, phibbs, hooper, cheika, grey and so on. look at simmons. years playing for the reds and it was made clear to him that he was no longer wanted for the wallabies. dropped, dumped, exiled. he swaps to nsw and it is straight back into the wallabies. had he been playing better? no, he was actually benched for the reds so we could assist chieka with the next generation. but move to nsw and suddenly eligible again. a disgrace. 

Had you considered the possibility that so many NSW players are chosen because they are playing for the least bad Super Rugby team, the Waratahs?  

 

On 11/12/2018 at 8:57 AM, Ken Gargett said:

i remember the shock on my kiwi fishing guide's face one year when i mentioned that i would support the crusaders against nsw. i would support satan against nsw. was thrown out of a pub in the hunter, along with 6 kiwis i did not know, a few years back when they first played the crusaders for the super title (and lost). my crime. supporting anyone playing nsw. they are the man u or dallas cowboys of rugby/league/cricket/you name it. 

This tribalism is a very odd thing, to me.  In England, you would not dream of cheering for a French, Welsh or Irish side in, say, the Champions Cup simply because the English XV happens to be from London or Yorkshire.  I suspect you would have to look very hard to find a Kiwi who would support the Reds or the Tahs just because they are playing against the "wrong" NZ side.  

[gweilgi]

On 11/12/2018 at 2:33 AM, Ken Gargett said:

the minute before i saw your post, i got an email from an old mate (who thinks i am getting mellow - had sent him similar thoughts to what i posted). he is randwick through and through, so anything from randwick is sacred and anything nsw is almost sacred (which is more than half the problem). and despite that, his view is that if we lose to england (which we almost certainly will and i am almost hoping for a massive rout so we can expedite this - prefer to win but not holding my breath) then it is time to blow it all up and start again. 

people forget that this is effectively what we did this time last cup. cheika was brought in around now (actually, i think the anniversary would be last week) and somehow we made the final. so why not again? not ideal but not terminal. perhaps a change like this might energise the team?

as for the new coach, there'd be many hands up. could go with jake white or look around the world. head coach of one of the supposedly top teams in world rugby? they'd fall over themselves for a chance. it might be a tough gig but this is what these people aim for and there are very few opportunities. no one with coaching ambitions will say no, i'll wait till they are doing better, then take it. 

That is what will happen, eventually.  But right now, less than a year from the RWC?  I do not think so.  Many coaches who would be in contention for this hot seat will be under contract and so unavailable.  Many others, I think, will take one look at the desolate state of things and think twice ... not least because they could confidently expect the support and backing from RA that will have all the characteristics of a plate of Aeroplane jelly in a Queensland summer.  

 

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, gweilgi said:

Had you considered the possibility that so many NSW players are chosen because they are playing for the least bad Super Rugby team, the Waratahs?  

 

This tribalism is a very odd thing, to me.  In England, you would not dream of cheering for a French, Welsh or Irish side in, say, the Champions Cup simply because the English XV happens to be from London or Yorkshire.  I suspect you would have to look very hard to find a Kiwi who would support the Reds or the Tahs just because they are playing against the "wrong" NZ side.  

the least bad argument falls apart when one considers this includes players like phibbs and hannigan and others. 

love to have a session with you on the balcony with rob. the one thing he and i completely agree upon is that the start of the decline in rugby in this country aligns exactly with the moment that tribalism started to decline. when it became simply play for the highest bidder, the game here was irreparably destroyed. i spoke to blades, former wallaby prop who was from nsw but came up for a couple of seasons when he had fallen out of favour down south, about this. while he professes not to understand qlders, he told me some stories. knuckles connolly, the great qld coach, made him burn his nsw jersey in a ceremony at training. the week before the annual game (now it is just one more super rugby game but then it was massive), he would tell blades the wrong time for training. even though he was playing for us, he was not game to let blades see any of the plans or moves in case he spoke to anyone from nsw. i can tell you that for two weeks before the annual game, anyone with a nsw number plate would not be let in if they wanted to change lanes. 

as for nz, are you serious? i would strongly dispute that. perhaps we have different experiences with kiwis. auckland and canterbury? every time i have ever spoken to someone from either place, they would much prefer the hated other place lost to an aussie team than won anything. 

[Ken Gargett]

17 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

That is what will happen, eventually.  But right now, less than a year from the RWC?  I do not think so.  Many coaches who would be in contention for this hot seat will be under contract and so unavailable.  Many others, I think, will take one look at the desolate state of things and think twice ... not least because they could confidently expect the support and backing from RA that will have all the characteristics of a plate of Aeroplane jelly in a Queensland summer.  

 

i do not think that they will do it but they did it last time so there is precedent for it. link had offended the nsw hierarchy so perhaps they found it easier. far less chance with one of their own. 

of course, many coaches are under contract (although sadly, contracts in sport seem to mean so little these days) but there are others around. also, i understand that often coaches will have clauses allowing them an out if they can get a national gig. they could look at any of the aussie super coaches to start - no issue getting them. whether they'd want them is another matter. i think you'd be surprised at the number who'd turn it down if they had the chance. very very few. this is what they aim for, and most of these guys have the ego to assume that they will succeed so everything will follow and fall into place. take a side like the wallabies into a WC? if they managed to beat wales, they could get an easy quarter. so at the very least, the new coach should have every chance of getting them to the semis. that would be seen as impressive and likely get him a good extension or at least plenty of chances for really good gigs elsewhere. 

i used to think as you do when looking at the local league comp. i'd think who on earth would want to take some of the sides on. turns out, a great many. they want the opp. the cleveland browns would have been coachless for ages if that applied. there'll be plenty lining up. 

[99call]

10 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

there'll be plenty lining up. 

Would be tasty to see Australia pick up Warren Gatland, as NZ have always been very pissy with the notion of him getting the job with the ABs. Could see a lot of fireworks 

Post world cup, I could see the musical chairs in the following owners. 

AB's,        Schmidt and Andy Farrell travel as a package to NZ

England   To either go Oldschool with Dean Richards, or Rob Baxter from Exeter Cheifs

Wales       Done and dusted with Wayne Pivac, though I hope to god he takes Stephen Jones with him from Scarlets

Aussie,     Davie Rennie, Vern Cotter, Warren Gatland, Larkham to step up? Scott Robertson? .....................Ultimately they have to empty the bank for Schmidt, but cant see it

Ireland,     ???????? hard to see them upgrading from Schmidt, I imagine the new comer to get a raft of abuse

SA            I think Rassie is going to be in place for a long time, regardless of results

Scotland   Gregor Townsend for another world cup cycle. 

France,     Who bloody knows, but if someone could get to grips with them, they have all the talent, and money

 

[gweilgi]

7 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

the least bad argument falls apart when one considers this includes players like phibbs and hannigan and others. 

Why so?

Consider firstly that in any sport, the best local team will always be over-represented in the national side.

Secondly, it does matter for a team's performance how well players know each other, how long they have played with each other.  Well, at least in theory ... the current Wallabies seem to be bent on disproving me on that score.

 

7 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

love to have a session with you on the balcony with rob. the one thing he and i completely agree upon is that the start of the decline in rugby in this country aligns exactly with the moment that tribalism started to decline. when it became simply play for the highest bidder, the game here was irreparably destroyed. i spoke to blades, former wallaby prop who was from nsw but came up for a couple of seasons when he had fallen out of favour down south, about this. while he professes not to understand qlders, he told me some stories. knuckles connolly, the great qld coach, made him burn his nsw jersey in a ceremony at training. the week before the annual game (now it is just one more super rugby game but then it was massive), he would tell blades the wrong time for training. even though he was playing for us, he was not game to let blades see any of the plans or moves in case he spoke to anyone from nsw. i can tell you that for two weeks before the annual game, anyone with a nsw number plate would not be let in if they wanted to change lanes. 

And this is supposed to be productive how exactly?  If fans, officials, players and coaches are keener to pull down players from the "wrong" state than to support the national side, what possible benefit can there be in this tribalist splitting attitude?  

As for the issue of playing for the highest bidder, I do have some sympathy for players.  Theirs is a short working life.  Any match can be their last (see Rob Horne).  A million dollars per year sounds like a lot, but after the ATO, the managers, the agent and assorted hangers-on have taken their cut, any player is lucky to take home half that.  Ten years of good earnings may have to last them a lifetime.  

 

7 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

as for nz, are you serious? i would strongly dispute that. perhaps we have different experiences with kiwis. auckland and canterbury? every time i have ever spoken to someone from either place, they would much prefer the hated other place lost to an aussie team than won anything. 

OK, I will admit to having heard rumblings about Auckland, but I never had the impression that this was a widespread attitude among Kiwis generally.  But then, I have not spent all that much time over there.  Can't stand their bloody sauvignon blanc....

[JohnS]

I'd like to think that the issue of the quality of Australian players is something that will take time to progress, however, the quality of our tactical play can be improved very quickly. Frankly, I'm exasperated with Australia's continual persistence in not taking 3-point penalty kicks on offer. This cost us the game against Wales 9-6 last weekend. Why do we do this when no other reputable team in World Rugby do this? It's simply madness.

[99call]

2 minutes ago, JohnS said:

Why do we do this when no other reputable team in World Rugby do this?

The AB's a bit more inclined to kick for sticks, but gladly Barretts toblerone boots, means it often has little impact.  

Brought up on NH rugby Union we find it pretty perplexing Aussie and NZ'd seeming disregard for having a 85 to 90% kicker.   I nearly spat my tea out, when Beauden went for a drop goal the other day. Every NZ mate I have, seems to have some unfathomable hatred for the drop goal, as an option. Of course a try is preferable, and a missed drop goal, is a disaster, but, both place kicking and drop kicking are skills that can be practiced to a point of having 90% confidence you'll get the positive result,......so why not value it?

I feel your frustration, i think a great deal of teams these days, seem to be mentally projecting how many points they are likely to concede, and in parallel to that, how many they need to score (it's completely backwards logic to me) but when I see 57-64 score lines in super rugby, maybe it can just about see where it's come from. 

In short there is no excuse, not to take an easy three, especially when lineouts/driving mauls have become so technical, and prone to failure. 

I do think Australia at this difficult juncture,  just need a simple game plan of territory, brutal accurate defence, and kicking sticks, and rebuild around that. 

[JohnS]

10 minutes ago, 99call said:

I do think Australia at this difficult juncture,  just need a simple game plan of territory, brutal accurate defence, and kicking sticks, and rebuild around that. 

Yes, this simple game plan sums it up for me.

[Ken Gargett]

4 hours ago, gweilgi said:

Why so?

Consider firstly that in any sport, the best local team will always be over-represented in the national side.

Secondly, it does matter for a team's performance how well players know each other, how long they have played with each other.  Well, at least in theory ... the current Wallabies seem to be bent on disproving me on that score.

this is perfect world stuff.

since i have been alive, there has always been endless arguments that we suffer the opposite in australia. victorian mates have long believed nsw gets the benefit of selectors/admin in cricket (just at the moment, it might be WA). as has qld and other states. long been a feeling that if you want to play for australia, move to nsw and your chances skyrocket. definitely the same for league. origin and then national comp changed that a bit but there was a time when the national team would have 1 or 2 qlders as tokens to a national game. the rest nsw. but if a qlder move to nsw, played for them, then every chance of selection. the famous example where the selectors rejected artie beetson at his best. insanity. 

so many examples from the other states in cricket. 

rugby ditto. there was a tour of nz early 80s?, i think, possibly 82?, where a large number of the top Queensland players had finally had a gutful of the way queensland was treated and withdrew in protest.

look at paul mclean. despite the endless fawning over ella and myth-building by the sycophantic southern press (and sure, he was a very fine player but he did not invent rugby as he'd have you believe), god himself will not convince me he could match mclean. and yet mclean was in and out of the team for ella, or papworth or wright or m?someone but he was simply so good they had to keep bringing him back (he you doubt me, andrew slack, the grand slam captain who played with and against both ella and mclean for many years described mclean as the most complete player he ever saw, the greg chappell of rugby and said that anyone who thinks ella was a better player than mclean either never saw mclean play or doesn't understand rugby - and who am i to argue). dropping gould for glen ella. one of squillions of examples (and one that had to be immediately reversed after one test). southern crap. so many examples. 

tell me that if quade had been from nsw that he would not have had a very different career. 

the best local team should be over-represented but history has shown us that very often, it is not so. 

 

4 hours ago, gweilgi said:

 

And this is supposed to be productive how exactly?  If fans, officials, players and coaches are keener to pull down players from the "wrong" state than to support the national side, what possible benefit can there be in this tribalist splitting attitude?  

 

hang on, that is putting words in my mouth. i might detest nsw and support whoever plays them but when they play for australia, different thing. as a kid, one supported uni - their great rivals were brothers and we hated them with deserved passion. but they had so many wonderful players of whom i was a massive fan - tony shaw, mclean, handy, moon, may others. and they had 100% unquestioned support when they played for qld. i have been a huge fan of many nsw players and they have full support when playing for australia, if they deserve it and plenty today do not. campo, kearns, burke and many more. 

as for possible benefit, in those days we had a world class side. today we don't. perhaps all this has far more to do with it than we think. sadly, no going back. 

 

4 hours ago, gweilgi said:

As for the issue of playing for the highest bidder, I do have some sympathy for players.  Theirs is a short working life.  Any match can be their last (see Rob Horne).  A million dollars per year sounds like a lot, but after the ATO, the managers, the agent and assorted hangers-on have taken their cut, any player is lucky to take home half that.  Ten years of good earnings may have to last them a lifetime.  

 

OK, I will admit to having heard rumblings about Auckland, but I never had the impression that this was a widespread attitude among Kiwis generally.  But then, I have not spent all that much time over there.  Can't stand their bloody sauvignon blanc....

agree with the savvy but i do not discriminate. detest all savvy, not just theirs. 

[gweilgi]

10 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

this is perfect world stuff.

since i have been alive, there has always been endless arguments that we suffer the opposite in australia. victorian mates have long believed nsw gets the benefit of selectors/admin in cricket (just at the moment, it might be WA). as has qld and other states. long been a feeling that if you want to play for australia, move to nsw and your chances skyrocket. definitely the same for league. origin and then national comp changed that a bit but there was a time when the national team would have 1 or 2 qlders as tokens to a national game. the rest nsw. but if a qlder move to nsw, played for them, then every chance of selection. the famous example where the selectors rejected artie beetson at his best. insanity. 

I would venture the opinion that this is less to do with a general prejudice in favour of NSW and more to do with the rot in the upper reaches of RA.  When the sport is run by rent-seeking nest-feathering functionaries who hold themselves in too high a regard, any team in any sport in any country will be in trouble.  

 

10 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

 

tell me that if quade had been from nsw that he would not have had a very different career. 

I'd be inclined to tell you so.  When he's on form, he is brilliant.  But he is erratic, and undisciplined.  I gather there are good reasons why the Reds dropped him...

 

10 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

as for possible benefit, in those days we had a world class side. today we don't. perhaps all this has far more to do with it than we think. sadly, no going back. 

I honestly do not believe any nation can maintain uninterrupted world-class status in any sport.  Winning teams get old.  There may be a shift to other sports (or codes).  The next generation may, by the laws of probability, quite simply not produce the number of outstanding players.  Look at Germany in soccer right now, or the West Indies in Cricket.  They once were giants.  The All Blacks, too, will have their time in the dumps.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

 

agree with the savvy but i do not discriminate. detest all savvy, not just theirs. 

You have a problem with Pouilly-Fumé?  

 

[Ken Gargett]

6 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

I would venture the opinion that this is less to do with a general prejudice in favour of NSW and more to do with the rot in the upper reaches of RA.  When the sport is run by rent-seeking nest-feathering functionaries who hold themselves in too high a regard, any team in any sport in any country will be in trouble.  

 

you are both right and wrong. absolutely spot on about the rot in RA. a large part of the problem is that they are, and have always been, rusted on nsw lackies and spivs. and that dribbles down through the entire system. and so we have the strong bias to nsw institutionalised. so it is effectively both what you say and what i think, i believe. 

if marty has happened across this thread, look forward to his thoughts. not sure they'd be praising nsw or the RA and he has plenty of personal experience with both. i've sent him an email to see if he'll add thoughts. 

 

6 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

I'd be inclined to tell you so.  When he's on form, he is brilliant.  But he is erratic, and undisciplined.  I gather there are good reasons why the Reds dropped him...

 

I honestly do not believe any nation can maintain uninterrupted world-class status in any sport.  Winning teams get old.  There may be a shift to other sports (or codes).  The next generation may, by the laws of probability, quite simply not produce the number of outstanding players.  Look at Germany in soccer right now, or the West Indies in Cricket.  They once were giants.  The All Blacks, too, will have their time in the dumps.  

 

i'll leave quade for another day but i remain convinced he would have played many more times for the wallabies had he been from nsw. 

granted what you say but there are exceptions and, as much as i hate it, the kiwis are largely one. as was pointed out to me recently, apparently we did not beat the kiwis between 1934 and 1979. they were pretty good for the 30-40 years before that. the 80s and 90s, things far more even but you could not say the kiwis slumped. they lost very few games and i think came out largely even with us. and since then we have been their whipping boy.

sadly, doubt any of us will live long enough to see this slump. 

 

6 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

 

You have a problem with Pouilly-Fumé?  

i would drink it ahead of some things - scorpion wine, african hots, curdled milk, metho. but i would not bother with good money for a bottle. if i had to buy a savvy, possibly dog point section 94. can't think of too many others. 

[Smokin_Safari]

Something about a migraine?

I cannot agree or disagree about individual players as we all look upon those we love to hate with tinted glasses – to remain objective, the only common thing about the performance of ARU RA (how much did they pay the re-branding consultants for that one?) over the last 14 years of fan’s agony is the administration.

You cannot run what was recently a popular national sport from behind closed doors, dictating prescriptive talent engagement, hand-wringing from one crisis or budget year to the next, or condoning what is now coming to light, a “shut your trap” culture. You should demand diversity across administration, coaching and most importantly, ideas. The ultimate and disgraceful result of this endemic failing was not one of the pitch players against Wales went to the current captain and asked Why The F are we not going for 3? Not one, as not because they couldn’t but because the non-stop administrative hand-bagging they would receive later.

Ball tampering blew up Cricket Australia following a long history of opaqueness, favouritism and single-mindedness – me suspects a similar event is overdue at RA. Just like a successful business, a successful team nurtures new ideas and new blood but the core values remain the same (read : ABs). you have no chance if the core is rotten.

Will Carling reminded us over here recently of the knifing he received for the ‘old farts’ comment but this did ultimately lead to a turnaround. I can't wait to see what Parling does in Melbourne – given the chance, I suspect something like Thorne – back to basics - you commit, you work, you achieve your goals or you’re out. Winning is an ultimate outcome, not the first.

Coaches – look at the path taken by the current coach (my pc crashes if I type his name) through Europe after Randwick. There are plenty of coaches willing and critically, very able, to step up from Pro14, 4N premiership and T14. I personally know that Schmidt would jump at it but is wary of the offer of, “Let’s just play it by ear until we find someone better…”

I may even mention it to our local -10s coach tomorrow – his only English words are, “Hello” and “Fxxx” but I am sure he would do better than the clown - at least here in France, the first thing you learn in rugby is how to tackle.

Unfortunately the game will be gone before the administrators.

Marty