Retrohale sensation between CC and NC

[Wushy]

I started out with smoking non-cubans from multiple different brands (Oliva, Ave Maria, Drew Estate, Fuente, Padron, Rocky[tastes like rat poison now]). My very first cuban was a HdM #2 and eventually found this community. So far my cuban list is HdM, Monte, HU, LGC, Cohiba, ElReyDelMundo. 

As I was smoking a Padron 64' last weekend after watching the new Star Wars movie, I noticed that the NC cigars' retrohale is a significantly more "burny" compared to the CCs I've had so far. For instance, I had my very first El Rey Del Mundo the previous week and that thing's retrohale was as smooth as butter(I could retrohale the entire draw with no discomfort). I went all the way down to the nub retrohaling every puff and it was smooth all the way down.

As for the Padron 64', the flavors were enjoyable and the retrohale had nice aromas, but I had to limit it to about once every 5 puffs while getting progressively more uncomfortable further down the stick. 

Had anyone else here had the same experience? Maybe it's the way I'm storing them. Both my NCs and CC are stored at about 65% RH. Maybe this is why I've also slowed down on buying NC cigars as well.

[Kitchen]

I have always found Padron's to have one serious kick with the retrohale, like snarfing hot sauce.  I love Padron's but rarely retrohale with them for that reason.  Insofar as the other non-Cubans I have, I find it is hit or miss.  For me, typically the stronger the cigar, the strong the pepper in the retrohale. 

[fastkiller13]

It's probably a combination of things. First Cubans usually have some age to them which mellows them out, while NC don't get aged. Also the Padron you're mentioning is known to be a a pepper beast. I've had some very mild retrohale NC and some I could barely handle. I think there is more of a variation in NC while Cubans are different they are still Cuban if that makes sense.

[Wushy]

Thanks for the responses. Maybe I just haven't tried enough NCs to find a full flavor smooth retrohale smoke. A young H Upmann HC I tried is apparently known to have quite a kick towards the 2nd half. I definitely got the nicotine kick and mongrel, but the retrohale was still pretty tolerable. Not a huge fan of pepper kicks in my cigars.

[Danimalia]

Nicaraguan tobacco is especially famous for its pepper spice. Oliva, Padron, Drew Estate Ave Maria/AJ all use primarily Nicaraguan tobacco. And many NC cigar-makers utilize a blending technique called front-loading, where the bunch is packed so that the foot of the cigar is especially spicy, and the smoker is hit with that blast of pepper right off the bat. A lot of people, myself included, enjoy that spice. Though I actually prefer the cigar ease into it instead of blast me right after lighting. 

If you're looking for NCs that are full-flavored but offer less spice, I'd recommend the Illusione cigars that don't have ligero in them (Fume D'Amour, Epernay). And of course, Cuba does full-flavor, but medium body and strength exceptionally well. Hoyo de Monterrey is a great example.

[prodigy]

It's probably a combination of things. First Cubans usually have some age to them which mellows them out, while NC don't get aged. Also the Padron you're mentioning is known to be a a pepper beast. I've had some very mild retrohale NC and some I could barely handle. I think there is more of a variation in NC while Cubans are different they are still Cuban if that makes sense.

This is a joke right? Cubans of regular production have almost no age. Most NC are properly aged before they arrive at the store shelf. Padrons can have 4-6 years on them, liga privada 4+, fuente 2+ etc etc. Cubans of regular production, your lucky to get 6 months. Someone by all means correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I've been told by some serious aficionados.

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[Mattb82]

2 hours ago, fastkiller13 said:

It's probably a combination of things. First Cubans usually have some age to them which mellows them out, while NC don't get aged. Also the Padron you're mentioning is known to be a a pepper beast. I've had some very mild retrohale NC and some I could barely handle. I think there is more of a variation in NC while Cubans are different they are still Cuban if that makes sense.

Exact opposite on the age topic my friend. Non Cubans are often aged, Cubans are rushed to production unless it’s an EL, Reserva etc. 

[Fuzz]

2 hours ago, Danimalia said:

And many NC cigar-makers utilize a blending technique called front-loading, where the bunch is packed so that the foot of the cigar is especially spicy, and the smoker is hit with that blast of pepper right off the bat. A lot of people, myself included, enjoy that spice. Though I actually prefer the cigar ease into it instead of blast me right after lighting. 

 

Flip your cigar around, light the cap, and smoke from the foot.

[fastkiller13]

I didn't know that NCs were aged that long. I was told, incorrectly it seems, that NCs sit for 6 months to get rid of the ammonia build up. I know Cubans are rushed out what I meant is that it seems to me most people seem to smoke aged Cubans. Whether they are actually aged I wouldn't know. But thanks for the info. I have a question though.

@prodigy @Mattb82  Why is it that Cubans mellow with age, but an 6 yr old Padron is a beast? Is it just the different tobacco or is the tobacco cured differently? I'm also assuming all cubans mellow with age. If I'm wrong please correct me. 

Thanks.

[prodigy]

I didn't know that NCs were aged that long. I was told, incorrectly it seems, that NCs sit for 6 months to get rid of the ammonia build up. I know Cubans are rushed out what I meant is that it seems to me most people seem to smoke aged Cubans. Whether they are actually aged I wouldn't know. But thanks for the info. I have a question though.
[mention=30918]prodigy[/mention] [mention=29869]Mattb82[/mention]  Why is it that Cubans mellow with age, but an 6 yr old Padron is a beast? Is it just the different tobacco or is the tobacco cured differently? I'm also assuming all cubans mellow with age. If I'm wrong please correct me. 
Thanks.

I'm not an expert, but it has to do with the blending. Cubans are just milder in general, yet pack much more flavor. NC do mellow with age. Try smoking a 15+ year old NC, they are great!

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[fastkiller13]

If I get the chance I definitely will. I think the oldest NC I've got is a Opus X Lost City Lancero from 2010. I think I'm actually going to go smoke it now.  

[Kitchen]

53 minutes ago, fastkiller13 said:

I didn't know that NCs were aged that long. I was told, incorrectly it seems, that NCs sit for 6 months to get rid of the ammonia build up. I know Cubans are rushed out what I meant is that it seems to me most people seem to smoke aged Cubans. Whether they are actually aged I wouldn't know. But thanks for the info. I have a question though.

It's complicated.  You have two different ages in a cigar, the age of the tobacco itself and the age of the cigar.

The older the tobaccos, the more fermentation, and smoother flavor, they will have.  However, you can only go so far before loosing flavor.  So how old the tobacco was before it was rolled has a big impact. 

But then you also need to think about the age of the cigar too.  Tobacco needs to be wet to work with, and moistening the leaves will increase fermentation.  Faster fermentation produces ammonia, which effects flavor and smoothness.  It take 6 months for this to leach out to the point of it not being noticeable, but about 2 years for it to completely leach out.  Also, it takes at least a couple of years for the oils and flavors of the different leaves to marry in the cigar. 

So the question is, how soon do you expect someone to smoke the cigar after rolling it? 

If you want it to be ready right out of the box, you will need to use older tobacco, like is the case with most non-Cubans.  But, if it is too old and someone wants to age it to the point where internal oils and flavors marry (3 to 5 years, maybe 10 years), it may start to loose its flavor.  Padron's are a good example of this; they simply do not age well because the tobacco is already so old.  They smoke great out of the box, better in a year, and then drop off. 

Now if you want the cigar to be best a few years after it has been rolled, when the oils and flavors start to marry, you should use younger tobacco.  The younger tobacco will continue to ferment and improve the flavor with out loosing any of it (at least not soon), giving time for the other stuff to happen.  This seems to be the case with Cubans.  Although I doubt they do this intentionally; more likely they can't keep up with demand and roll them when the tobacco is fermented just enough to do so. 

[torsion]

Calling @mrretrohale

[mrretrohale]

@torsion Reporting for duty!

I smoke mostly CCs but in the past when I do smoke an NC I'm usually green on the 2nd stick. Retrohaling on almost every draw would lead to many half burnt cigars and nauseous afternoons. I've learnt to slow down and cut back on the retrohale.

The nicotine content is probably the kicker, from memory the Partagas Culebras on retrohale starts out pleasant and gets really peppery towards the end of the breath. So there are unretrohaleable CCs. I've had NCs that I would enjoy retrohaling but kick my ass in the final third, the flavours are still very enjoyable but the nicotine sickness would kick in. 

[Cigar Surgeon]

15 hours ago, fastkiller13 said:

 while NC don't get aged. 

Not sure where you heard that from. Many NC cigars have tobaccos that are aged a year or more, and then the cigars are rested for another 4 - 6 months.  Some factories use tobaccos that are well over the 5 year mark.

To answer OPs question / comments: It all depends on the blend. I smoked an Atabey Misticos that was like retrohaling cotton candy and cedar, and I've retrohaled a Neanderthal that was like retrohaling habaneros and pepper. There are hundreds of thousands of tobacco combinations in the NC world to come up with a final blend.

Not everyone finds retrohaling medium plus to full bodied cigars comfortable or nuanced.

[Cigar Surgeon]

18 minutes ago, mrretrohale said:

@torsion Reporting for duty!

I smoke mostly CCs but in the past when I do smoke an NC I'm usually green on the 2nd stick. Retrohaling on almost every draw would lead to many half burnt cigars and nauseous afternoons. I've learnt to slow down and cut back on the retrohale.

The nicotine content is probably the kicker, from memory the Partagas Culebras on retrohale starts out pleasant and gets really peppery towards the end of the breath. So there are unretrohaleable CCs. I've had NCs that I would enjoy retrohaling but kick my ass in the final third, the flavours are still very enjoyable but the nicotine sickness would kick in. 

So we heard from a birdy down in Havana in November there's a good reason for that. We were told that significant testing has been done on Cuban tobacco and it was discovered the nicotine levels in Cuban tobacco are fractions of the nicotine levels in non-Cuban tobacco.

And that tracks on an anecdotal level because I can smoke a full bodied Cuban cigar first thing in the morning with no breakfast, and it doesn't phase me in the slightest.

[Fugu]

20 hours ago, prodigy said:

Cubans of regular production have almost no age. Most NC are properly aged before they arrive at the store shelf. Padrons can have 4-6 years on them, liga privada 4+, fuente 2+ etc etc

How do you know? Did NC producers finally start to introduce boxing dates?

7 hours ago, Avrus said:

So we heard from a birdy down in Havana in November there's a good reason for that. We were told that significant testing has been done on Cuban tobacco and it was discovered the nicotine levels in Cuban tobacco are fractions of the nicotine levels in non-Cuban tobacco.

That's not really new info, is it?

[sonarman81]

Hot lava thru my nostrils vs aroma. 9 times out of 10 I go with a Cuban. I can retrohale some non Cubans. Curivari comes to mind first.

[Carpenter69]

20 hours ago, fastkiller13 said:

If I get the chance I definitely will. I think the oldest NC I've got is a Opus X Lost City Lancero from 2010. I think I'm actually going to go smoke it now.  

Was the lost city out in 2010?

[Pharmacovigilant]

Like you, I find myself retrohaling the whole way down on most CC’s, especially my HdM’s and LGC’s.  But I find a lot more variation with NC’s, so for me it really depends.  For example, I love the Fuente Hemmingway Short Story and BestSellers, which I find creamy and on the milder side so I retro all thru.  But with my Padróns, as with most Nicaraguan Puros, the strength limits my retro to once every 3-4 draws and at that I only pass the final 5-10% of the drawn smoke through the sinus.  Enjoyable, but in moderation.

[Riverstyx]

@Pharmacovigilant  I agree - the Fuente Hemmingway series are about the only NC I've found that I can consistently retrohale.  I think I'm done with any Nicaraguan sticks. 

[Cigar Surgeon]

23 hours ago, Fugu said:

That's not really new info, is it?

I'm confident I've never heard of a reference to nicotine level differences specifically relating to Cuban and non-Cuban tobacco. It's definitely the first I've heard of any scientific analysis being done. 

If there's been any previous discussion on FoH on the matter, I'd love to read it. I couldn't find anything.

[mrretrohale]

On 12/19/2017 at 9:50 AM, Avrus said:

So we heard from a birdy down in Havana in November there's a good reason for that. We were told that significant testing has been done on Cuban tobacco and it was discovered the nicotine levels in Cuban tobacco are fractions of the nicotine levels in non-Cuban tobacco.

And that tracks on an anecdotal level because I can smoke a full bodied Cuban cigar first thing in the morning with no breakfast, and it doesn't phase me in the slightest.

Yet another reason to smoke cubans! 

[Fugu]

On 20.12.2017 at 11:46 PM, Avrus said:

I'm confident I've never heard of a reference to nicotine level differences specifically relating to Cuban and non-Cuban tobacco. It's definitely the first I've heard of any scientific analysis being done. 

If there's been any previous discussion on FoH on the matter, I'd love to read it. I couldn't find anything.

I was really wondering, as it had been a long standing given for me. But don't ask me for the why and wheres of that info.... But like you I also relate it to the (many) same anecdotal observations....