Is it me...or the wrapper leaf?

[Jimmy_jack]

I've been looking at some of the new releases. The Punch 48, Hoyo Elegantes and the Upmman Dantes as well. Is it me or do the wrappers seem very rough? Even some of the Club Allones. Rough, bumpy, dull...lack luster.

I'm not well versed in these so I could be wrong. Perhaps I've seen poor examples online? 

[RijkdeGooier]

I've had eyes and hands on all of these

1. HdM has a very nice shiny rosado wrapper from the boxes I've seen. 

2. Punch has a normal wrapper too. 

3. The Dantes I've seen are Montecristo but those boxes have a dark Maduro wrapper which can be a bit rougher. Looks to me like sungrown leaf rather than shadegrown. 

[NSXCIGAR]

The ELs typically have darker, less attractive wrappers as they use "seconds" wrappers that are deemed unsuitable for regular export production, but with 2 years of age. Compare them to the Cohiba Maduro 5 wrappers which are the finest upper tapado leaf. The Punch 48 and the Hoyo Elegantes, I can't speak to as I haven't seen any in person and only a couple of images of either. We'll see what they look like when they hit retailer shelved in real quantities.

[Mattb82]

I can only speak from pictures but many examples of the punch 48 I've seen look very bad 

[shortsqueeze]

On 3/24/2017 at 10:33 PM, Jimmy_jack said:

I've been looking at some of the new releases. The Punch 48, Hoyo Elegantes and the Upmman Dantes as well. Is it me or do the wrappers seem very rough? Even some of the Club Allones. Rough, bumpy, dull...lack luster.

I'm not well versed in these so I could be wrong. Perhaps I've seen poor examples online? 

It's not you. The last few years have been lousy harvests. But, production must go on! 

[shortsqueeze]

On 3/25/2017 at 2:55 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

The ELs typically have darker, less attractive wrappers as they use "seconds" wrappers that are deemed unsuitable for regular export production

Interesting statement. Kindly provide the source of information?

[Lotusguy]

Interesting statement. Kindly provide the source of information?

+1

I call BS unless some reasonably verifiable source for this is offered.

[Mattb82]

I can't imagine seconds on the LE wrappers because they aren't "suitable for regular production". Some LEs have some amazing looking wrappers. Monte 520 at the top of the list for me. Those are some of the best looking smoothest wrappers I've seen 

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, Lotusguy said:

+1

I call BS unless some reasonably verifiable source for this is offered.

 

3 hours ago, shortsqueeze said:

Interesting statement. Kindly provide the source of information?

No one apparently has seen this?

 

[Nico]

+1

 

I call BS unless some reasonably verifiable source for this is offered.

 

I can't imagine seconds on the LE wrappers because they aren't "suitable for regular production". Some LEs have some amazing looking wrappers. Monte 520 at the top of the list for me. Those are some of the best looking smoothest wrappers I've seen 

 

 

 

https://www.cigarjournal.com/ediciones-limitadas-inovation-born-of-necessity/

 

Although to be fair, there is several stories on how the ELs were born so I think it's necessary to point out the fact that people need to make a personal judgment on what they believe. Kind of like the whole culebra thing. Several stories there too.

 

Oh, to late..

 

Hehe, the nxs link goes to the same article. But I actually read this story on other places before cigar journal published an article about it.

 

 

Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, Mattb82 said:

I can't imagine seconds on the LE wrappers because they aren't "suitable for regular production".

I never said regular production--I said regular export production. The leaf used for ELs had previously only been considered suitable for domestic production cigars and not "Habanos." All "Habanos" are cigars of the 27 brands and are able to be exported. 

That being said, I think the leaf used for ELs has improved over time. But I can tell you having seen the wrappers on the early 2000/2001 ELs firsthand many were not as pretty as they are today. 

[Mattb82]

23 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I never said regular production--I said regular export production. The leaf used for ELs had previously only been considered suitable for domestic production cigars and not "Habanos." All "Habanos" are cigars of the 27 brands and are able to be exported. 

That being said, I think the leaf used for ELs has improved over time. But I can tell you having seen the wrappers on the early 2000/2001 ELs firsthand many were not as pretty as they are today. 

I can see early on, however at some point it appears the LE program was given priority on wrapper leaf just based on how they look now imo. I haven't been into cigars long enough to go back 10-15 years though 

[shortsqueeze]

18 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I never said regular production--I said regular export production. The leaf used for ELs had previously only been considered suitable for domestic production cigars and not "Habanos." All "Habanos" are cigars of the 27 brands and are able to be exported. 

That being said, I think the leaf used for ELs has improved over time. But I can tell you having seen the wrappers on the early 2000/2001 ELs firsthand many were not as pretty as they are today. 

Perhaps I need to re-read the article, but my interpretatation was not that the wrapper was deemed inferior or second-rate, but difficult to work with and "too dark" for export production, something entirely different than "less attractive" and "seconds." I understand where you are coming from, however.

The whole premise is silly, as there were plenty of "dark" cigars during the heydays of the late 80s and 90s. 

I agree I've seen plenty of rough looking wrapper on ELs from the very beginning of the program right through to today, but I've also seen lots of exquisite wrapper and I'm quite picky. No more or less than regular production, to be honest. In fact, some of the worst wrapper in general I've seen in 15 years has come about in the last couple years and is surely to come given the challenges facing the agricultural side of the house, which is to the point of the OP.

[NSXCIGAR]

59 minutes ago, shortsqueeze said:

Perhaps I need to re-read the article, but my interpretatation was not that the wrapper was deemed inferior or second-rate, but difficult to work with and "too dark" for export production, something entirely different than "less attractive" and "seconds." I understand where you are coming from, however.

The whole premise is silly, as there were plenty of "dark" cigars during the heydays of the late 80s and 90s. 

I agree I've seen plenty of rough looking wrapper on ELs from the very beginning of the program right through to today, but I've also seen lots of exquisite wrapper and I'm quite picky. No more or less than regular production, to be honest. In fact, some of the worst wrapper in general I've seen in 15 years has come about in the last couple years and is surely to come given the challenges facing the agricultural side of the house, which is to the point of the OP.

I suppose the issue is what the definition of inferior or second-rate is. I think the wrappers being less aesthetically pleasing (in HSA's eyes) and thicker and harder for the torcedors to work with and also having potential combustibility issues (which I think has been borne out over the years) is sufficient for the classification of this wrapper leaf as sub-optimal. Now, I agree that color really shouldn't be an issue, and if it were that characteristic alone determining its classification, I would probably question it. But the fact is that the wrappers are also thicker. So I think HSA has a legitimate basis for downgrading the wrapper.

Again, whether or not this is still the case today, I'm not arguing. In the early days of the ELs, they were not really considered a high-end production. Pricing was much closer to regular production. Only the global brands were used. Now, I think the EL program has somewhat morphed into a showcase release and much more care is taken with its production. Until the late 2000s, I could count on one hand the number of memorable EL releases. Most were plagued with that forest-floor trademark EL flavor, weren't true to their marca's DNA, and suffered from poor burning and construction--the 07 Hoyo Regalos and its fireproof wrapper being the worst offender of all (although if you can find Regalos with lighter wrappers that burn, I think the Regalos was actually one of the best ELs of the time).

However, the EL program has really stepped up its game. I'd say since 2010, more than 50% of the releases have been good to very good, and very recently, the batting average has been even higher. And I can definitely confirm that overall wrapper quality and appearance have come a long way since the early days of the program. I think this mainly comes down to simply selecting much better tapado leaf--something they didn't really care about in the earlier days. Prices, however, have risen commensurately for the ELs, something that they probably could only do after selecting better quality wrapper.

[Nico]

I think one argument that can be made is that, since the wrapper were used for domestic production, it is the reason it's inferior. HSA seems to be a company that uses the best tobacco for export and uses the 2nd grade for domestic production, cheaper cigars, and for other cheaper stuff like cigarillos. I can't help but think that if they viewed the wrapper to be suited for premium cigars they would've used it before the year 2000, but for some reason they didn't. They decided (or rather reevaluated) it to be used during a raw material crisis. A little to coincidental if you ask me...


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

[Lotusguy]

Fair points above. I would qualify my statement that the more recent LE (at least since 2008) didn't have worse wrappers than regular production. Darker most of the time, yes.

[shortsqueeze]

Interesting discussion. My perspective differs a bit. I thought some of the early releases, Montecristo Robustos, Partagas Serie D No. 3 and HdM Piramides for example, were terrific cigars whereas I have been less enamored since. Coincidentally, or not, I liked the re-releases of both the Monte and the Partgas and some others (Cohiba Piramades for example). 

I have also always found the ELs more like each other than the brand they purport to represent, a not too uncommon criticism. 

All that said, I'm looking forward to try the Dantes when it hits the mainstream.

Back to the topic of earlier discussion, the state of wrapper today and going forward, I went back a number of years and looked at some of the LFTHs that I participated in and the aesthetics were just no comparison to, generally speaking, what I've been seeing today (in favor of the former) and what I fear we will be seeing for the next year.

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, Lotusguy said:

Fair points above. I would qualify my statement that the more recent LE (at least since 2008) didn't have worse wrappers than regular production. Darker most of the time, yes.

I agree, but I put the time closer to 2010, and this is also around the time I noticed 1) EL prices rising and 2) more of the marca's DNA and a higher batting average for the releases. 

5 hours ago, Nico said:

I think one argument that can be made is that, since the wrapper were used for domestic production, it is the reason it's inferior. HSA seems to be a company that uses the best tobacco for export and uses the 2nd grade for domestic production, cheaper cigars, and for other cheaper stuff like cigarillos. I can't help but think that if they viewed the wrapper to be suited for premium cigars they would've used it before the year 2000, but for some reason they didn't. They decided (or rather reevaluated) it to be used during a raw material crisis. A little to coincidental if you ask me...

I think that's the whole idea. The EL program only exists because of a wrapper shortage due to HSA cranking out 250 million cigars per year by 1999-2000. Understandable, I suppose. Also from 2000-2004 all but two EL releases were Robusto or larger, so it appears they did in fact use the leaf for larger cigars. But they wanted to differentiate the cigars from regular production, under the premise of preserving some kind of integrity with respect to regular production. That's a bit of a laugher to be honest, but, ok. 

I do think Altadis coming in in 1999 was probably the main factor for the idea of something like a Limited Edition special release. I don't think it's a coincidence that 2000 saw the first EL, and with that success, the LCDH and REs burst onto the scene after only 4 and 5 years, respectively. And almost immediately after Altadis came in, a tremendous number of regular production cigars were announced to be cut. IMO, both the special releases and the cuts in regular production are likely due to Altadis coming in with new ideas. And here we are today.