Cigar Flavor...aging effected/controlled? Temperature and Humidity of Curing Barns...

[SaintMickey®]

I watched this video....and saw something that I've heard of before but it made me wonder.  How is our cigar's flavor being effected by "rushing" it to market? Rushing might be a harsh word but...@19:58 you can see the clip, using "machines and refrigeration" to achieve?

Not sure if I am falling for the "natural but controlled" argument.  30 days now...a difference of 15 days less....which they make sound like nothing but haven't they sped up the process by 50%?

I would think natural would be better...don't care how the binder looks or the dryness as they will re-moistioned ultimately. Thoughts?

http://www.jamessuckling.com/videos/cigars-heart-and-soul-of-cuba/

 

[Waah954]

Think you posted the wrong video mate.

This guy doesn't have time on holidays to smoke a No.2

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[SaintMickey®]

1 hour ago, Waah954 said:

Think you posted the wrong video mate.

This guy doesn't have time on holidays to smoke a No.2

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Corrected...interesting video as well overall.

[Waah954]

Thanks for sharing.

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[Philc2001]

9 hours ago, SaintMickey® said:

Not sure if I am falling for the "natural but controlled" argument.  30 days now...a difference of 15 days less....which they make sound like nothing but haven't they sped up the process by 50%?

I would think natural would be better...don't care how the binder looks or the dryness as they will re-moistioned ultimately. Thoughts?

I don't buy the "natural" part either... natural but controlled, not artificial? That's contradictory. If it is controlled, then it is not natural, it is artificially controlled. LOL!

The key question is what does it do to the cigars?

The process of curing and preparing tobacco for rolling is long, and I have to believe that there are ideal climate conditions that produce the best quality, so maintaining a constant temperature and humidity in the process would likely produce better finished products. The unpredictable nature of climate, with daily and seasonal fluctuation of temperature and RH on the island are bound to mess with the quality of the leaf. It may rain, or it could be unusually dry, hotter or colder than normal, etc. Even the simple fluctuation between daytime and night probably contributes to inconsistencies and variable results. Reducing or eliminating variables means they can simplify the process and consistently produce predictable results. 

Just as in our own aging process, when we take boxes of cigars and store them in our humidors, we're all trying to maintain stability and consistency of the environment for the best and most predictable aging results. So although it might seem a bit controversial, I think it is better overall for the quality and consistency of the product. Just my 2-cents.

 

[SaintMickey®]

22 minutes ago, Philc2001 said:

so maintaining a constant temperature and humidity in the process would likely produce better finished products

I agree with everything you said and I guess I was only wondering what "magic" might  be lost when we trade "time for consistency"...and I guess by magic I mean flavor.

Its just one of those things you think about at night after a couple cabernets and Habanos.

[Philc2001]

10 minutes ago, SaintMickey® said:

I agree with everything you said and I guess I was only wondering what "magic" might  be lost when we trade "time for consistency"...and I guess by magic I mean flavor.

Its just one of those things you think about at night after a couple cabernets and Habanos.

I don't think any of us can really know for sure, but I'm going with consistency = better quality, and I have to assume better quality = better tasting cigars in the long run. From what little I know, there are many other factors that have much greater influence on the flavor of a cigar, such as the specific strain of tobacco grown, the quality and mineral content of the soil the leaf is grown in, the amount of rain and sun in the growing season, when the leaves are picked, the proportions of various tobaccos in the blend, the frequency of sowing, care of the land, etc.

The curing and drying process to me seem less likely to affect flavor. Nature makes the flavor. I think this is more about getting a consistent and reliable yield to supply the rollers with usable tobacco. As they refine and improve the process they can minimize waste, and produce more cigars, which they absolutely need to keep up with demand - especially for their premium lines.

[SaintMickey®]

34 minutes ago, Philc2001 said:

The curing and drying process to me seem less likely to affect flavor. Nature makes the flavor. I think this is more about getting a consistent and reliable yield to supply the rollers with usable tobacco.

I don't want to go down a rabbit hole here but this is exactly what I was thinking regarding curing and drying but maybe with a different opinion.

Nature makes the flavor for sure and I believe that nature would much rather go at it's own pace and "usable tobacco" be DAMNED! That's just the profiteers! LOL

Good discussion...One, Two, Threee. The world may never know!

[Philc2001]

Mickey, please don't get me wrong, I'm with you on the general philosophy, and in fact I've been on your side of the opinion spectrum in the past concerning this specific aspect of curing. I even recall some years ago the Cubans were cooking their tobacco with open flame and ovens. Like you, I'm skeptical about some of their methods, and I believe the Cubans are compromising quality for expedience in certain aspects, so I won't argue with you that change is not all for the good. But what caused me to shift my opinion somewhat on the topic of controlling curing environments is there is scientific evidence to support it, and when done right I think it does improve the product. Chemical analysis and tests on the cured tobacco does seem to support it. Hoping to avoid the rabbit hole, I have some references worth exploring...

This Scientific Journal and This One are some examples of the research on the subject. In a different study on Flue-Cured Tobacco Curing, there are specific guidelines for temperature controls, specifically the temperature range and the rate of temperature change at every stage of curing are very important. 

Closer to home, this article: Tobacco Curing Goes High Tech, highlights the benefits of automating barn environments in the curing process. 

 

[RWhiz]

This is my perspective, as an engineer who designs and integrates automation systems for heavy industry what we see in JS's video isn't really automation.  I see their system as simply placing certain controls on what is already occurring naturally in the leaf.  They are trying to eliminate some variables which can be detrimental to the aging and curing process and be better able to predict when the leafs will be ready for the rollers.  I personally have no issue with placing these controls in their process, and believe in the long run we as customers will benefit. 

[SaintMickey®]

2 minutes ago, RWhiz said:

This is my perspective, as an engineer who designs and integrates automation systems for heavy industry what we see in JS's video isn't really automation.  I see their system as simply placing certain controls on what is already occurring naturally in the leaf.  They are trying to eliminate some variables which can be detrimental to the aging and curing process and be better able to predict when the leafs will be ready for the rollers.  I personally have no issue with placing these controls in their process, and believe in the long run we as customers will benefit. 

I really agree with what you and what everyone has said and agree that controlling variables and better predictability is sound reasoning. I am sure that the guy that first thought to put the plants under cloth was thought to be crazy and someone like me said "its going to change the flavor" LOL

But I still go back to aging 50% faster? I still wonder if it doesn't have an effect.  And I'm not even saying good or bad. Heck maybe it's better for flavor speeding up the process. I just hope they don't stare using microwaves (joking).

[cigaraholic]

The curing and drying has everything to do with the flavor of your cigars. You can grow the greatest tobacco on the planet, but if you've screwed up the curing and drying you've ruined the flavor. Same goes for a little leaf we like to grow in Northern California ???

[PigFish]

I happen to understand automation and understand its benefits and detractors. I do believe that somewhere out there, there is an optimum, the exact right conditions that provide the best results. Do I know it? No. Do the Cubans know it? I don't know, but I have to assume that they know better than I do here.

So to me the real question is, should it be looked for and strived for? The answer, yes it should.

Would I then rather choose between one barn of tobacco that may get closer to the mark, by accident, one in a thousand times, or more consistent closeness to the mark almost every time? I would choose the deliberate, controlled approach and understand that it is development in progress, always!

This argument made a rift in the 'seasoned smoker' world a little over a decade ago (as I recall). I filed it away then, as I do now as one of the rote anecdotes about walking uphill, both directions, in the snow, barefoot ... Meaning, some folks will have no change, even if it is really for the better.

As I recall, the same guys complaining about raw tobacco in cigars and QC one year, were then complaining that 'these new cigars won't age,' the next.

My 2 pennies! -the Pig

 

[Colt45]

is adding fertilizer or nutrients to the soil natural? does it change the flavor of tobacco? is human intervention part of the process / terroir?

[SaintMickey®]

31 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

is adding fertilizer or nutrients to the soil natural? does it change the flavor of tobacco? is human intervention part of the process / terroir?

Yes. Maybe. I don't know.

[inmotion]

Thanks for sharing...

[Fugu]

I too, tend to be critical of innovations (technical and other) just for the sake of, or with priority given to productivity and output while at the same time risking to compromise the quality of the endproduct. But in this case, I can't see any disadvantage of gaining control over that process, if adequately applied. There might be a certain temptation, though, to rush the process....

[MahDooRow]

On 12/31/2016 at 0:36 AM, cigaraholic said:

The curing and drying has everything to do with the flavor of your cigars. You can grow the greatest tobacco on the planet, but if you've screwed up the curing and drying you've ruined the flavor. Same goes for a little leaf we like to grow in Northern California ???

Bingo!  

[MPS]

The fermentation process is much more important in regards to flavor.


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[NSXCIGAR]

6 hours ago, Fugu said:

I too, tend to be critical of innovations (technical and other) just for the sake of, or with priority given to productivity and output while at the same time risking to compromise the quality of the endproduct. But in this case, I can't see any disadvantage of gaining control over that process, if adequately applied. There might be a certain temptation, though, to rush the process....

I think innovation is very important--as long as there is failure and competition in the market. The control and monopoly Cubatabaco exerts changes all that. New methods become the only methods. Old methods become abandoned instead of reformed or adapted to new technology or information. Unilateral, uniform innovation enforced by edict is never a good idea. When it's private money on the line, new or experimental methods are far less likely to be capriciously undertaken.

We don't have the choice of obtaining old Corojo cured using the 19th Century methods--at any price. Unfortunately, we must take what HSA gives us and all CCs will be processed the same way unless you get some farm-produced, small-batch tobacco. But even then, strains are tightly controlled so one still cannot get Corojo grown in Cuba. The term "natural" is pretty meaningless--as we are seeing. I'd be much happier with the term "traditional" to describe the way Cuban tobacco had been processed until the late 20th Century. 

There is no doubt that the new strains and the new processing methods have resulted in major changes with some obvious pros and cons. Ammonia and much of the tannic "greenness' that could be present in CCs has all but vanished. There's a creamy quality that has developed in many CCs that really didn't exist prior. However, the overall strength and richness and depth of flavor of CCs has diminished, IMO. The rich earthiness found most notably in old Partagas and Bolivar has been drastically reduced. CCs don't combust as well as they once did. Consistency has become more difficult to achieve. Which of these issues is due to the new strains or the new processing methods I doubt anyone will ever really know as both aspects changed simultaneously.

Until there's real competition again among tobacco farmers and cigar producers in Cuba we're simply at the eternal mercy of Cubatabaco and whatever kooky ideas they decide to try out on us. And ideas that take way too long to move on from when inferior. 

[SaintMickey®]

I too, tend to be critical of innovations....There might be a certain temptation, though, to rush the process....

Yes, agreed this was really my only main concern that they "rush the process". I will always believe that slower is better for things like fermentation and curing.

Great discussion all around.


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[MaxG]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

... However, the overall strength and richness and depth of flavor of CCs has diminished, IMO. The rich earthiness found most notably in old Partagas and Bolivar has been drastically reduced.  

 

I strongly agree.  I still love BBF and BRC, etc... but they are nothing like they were when I started in the mid-90s. 

- MG

 

[Philc2001]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I think innovation is very important--as long as there is failure and competition in the market. The control and monopoly Cubatabaco exerts changes all that. New methods become the only methods. Old methods become abandoned instead of reformed or adapted to new technology or information. Unilateral, uniform innovation enforced by edict is never a good idea. When it's private money on the line, new or experimental methods are far less likely to be capriciously undertaken.

We don't have the choice of obtaining old Corojo cured using the 19th Century methods--at any price. Unfortunately, we must take what HSA gives us and all CCs will be processed the same way unless you get some farm-produced, small-batch tobacco. But even then, strains are tightly controlled so one still cannot get Corojo grown in Cuba. The term "natural" is pretty meaningless--as we are seeing. I'd be much happier with the term "traditional" to describe the way Cuban tobacco had been processed until the late 20th Century. 

There is no doubt that the new strains and the new processing methods have resulted in major changes with some obvious pros and cons. Ammonia and much of the tannic "greenness' that could be present in CCs has all but vanished. There's a creamy quality that has developed in many CCs that really didn't exist prior. However, the overall strength and richness and depth of flavor of CCs has diminished, IMO. The rich earthiness found most notably in old Partagas and Bolivar has been drastically reduced. CCs don't combust as well as they once did. Consistency has become more difficult to achieve. Which of these issues is due to the new strains or the new processing methods I doubt anyone will ever really know as both aspects changed simultaneously.

Until there's real competition again among tobacco farmers and cigar producers in Cuba we're simply at the eternal mercy of Cubatabaco and whatever kooky ideas they decide to try out on us. And ideas that take way too long to move on from when inferior. 

I concur mostly, but despite Cubatobacco's monopoly in Cuba, they do have to compete on a global cigar market. The methods we are discussing here have been proven elsewhere by a variety of NC cigar producers like Fuente, Padron, Oliva and so on. I don't believe the Cubans are pioneers in these methods, if anything, they are late adopters. The industry as a whole innovates to compete, and the Cubans have to adapt or risk losing market share just as in any other enterprise. One look at any Top-10 Cigar list, or CA's recent Top-25 is evidence enough to show that cigar smokers have other options. 

While the jury may still be out on the effects on flavor and long-term aging, I'm finding recent production Cuban cigars seem to be more approachable at a younger age than they used to be. Whether that is the byproduct of the "controlled" curing process or other factors, I can't be sure, but I suspect CT/HSA have methodically made it so specifically to be more competitive with NCs. Similarly, the progression towards fatter cigars seems to be motivated by competition with NCs. I have to believe that this competitiveness will keep the Cubans motivated to make better products, rather than risk losing market share in favor of blind idealism. But  when it comes to communist ideology I wouldn't take anything for granted.

 

[NSXCIGAR]

4 hours ago, Philc2001 said:

I concur mostly, but despite Cubatobacco's monopoly in Cuba, they do have to compete on a global cigar market. The methods we are discussing here have been proven elsewhere by a variety of NC cigar producers like Fuente, Padron, Oliva and so on. I don't believe the Cubans are pioneers in these methods, if anything, they are late adopters.

Do we know that these newer techniques are in fact already in use by NC producers? IOW, is Cuba simply adopting processing methods already in use or are the methods different? I can certainly give Cubatabaco a break if they're simply looking around them and attempting to adopt newer, proven methods. In that case, the experimentation and innovation has already been done. However, I'd suspect that some producers use methods that are not fully disclosed.

[Philc2001]

I thInk we have to confirm we are all discussing the same thing. As you may all be aware, there are generally 3 stages of preparing tobacco for rolling; (1) Harvesting, (2) Curing, (3) Fermenting. There is often a 4th step in the process for aging or special treatment of the leaves before they reach a roller; for example Fuente ages Anejo wrapper leaves in rum barrels for a year, and Drew Estate uses oils and other aromatics before and even after rolling.

What the video was referring to, and what I have been discussing in this thread is the environmental controls of the air curing tobacco barns. The process involves hanging the tobacco leaves on sticks in a barn (which you see in the video) for 4-8 weeks to dry them out until they reach the desired color and moisture content. The barns where the curing takes place have a variety of vents at ground level and in the roof, and usually have some means of regulating heat.

What the man is showing us in the video is nothing more than the environmental controls they are using in the curing barns. In the old days the farmer would hang the tobacco in the barn, and then watch the thermometer for weeks until the desired color was reached. If the temperature or the humidity got outside the desired range, and he was actually paying attention, the farmer would manually open or close the vents or the barn doors to regulate the temperature and humidity in the barn. As you can imagine without some kind of artificial means of regulating the environment the process would be rather prone to the whims of Mother Nature. What you see in the video is the Cubans are exercising more precise control over environmentals in the barn, plain and simple. Welcome to the 20th century! It is not clear whether the Cubans are manually controlling the vents, or if they are using automated devices, but there is nothing new here, these systems have been mainstream all over the world for 15-20 years.

This is really no different than what we all do at home in our humidors. Some of us use more sophisticated controls for temperature and humidity, others just regulate humidity. But I don't think any of us would risk our precious cigars purely to "natural" or ambient means of humidification. We all use either beads, Boveda, or active humidity controls, so why would anyone expect the curing process to be any different? Farmers have $millions tied up in their tobacco crops, so leaving the process to chance is risky and could lead to a lot of waste.

Now, there are a variety of ways cigar makers (and Cubans in particular) may try to push the tobacco preparation stages, whether by cooking the tobacco especially in the fermentation stage, or in shorting the aging stage before they send the tobacco to the rollers, but that is a different topic than what we are discussing here.

Again, what the video was focused on in the segment that was highlighted is merely the curing barn control systems. I suspect what has some people concerned is the commentary suggests they have reduced curing time by a third from ~45 to ~30 days. I don't think that's a big deal, and it seems reasonable to me. Through more precise controls they have taken some of the guess work out and achieved a more consistent means of getting the tobacco ready for fermentation. I hope I'm not missing the point, or minimizing the importance of the topic.


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