I know this Bourbon Family Tree exists...Habanos Family Tree?

[SaintMickey®]

I stumbled upon this years ago and have about memorized it.

I'm a clear Sazerac>Buffalo Trace guy with my favorite bourbon being Blanton's. I have a clear Meh' side too but as this is subjective I won't rain on other's taste parade!

Wondering if anyone has seen anything like this for Cuban Cigars?

[Corylax18]

Unfortunately, just one big stump. HSA.

Somebody may have some information on pre nationalization cigar brands, but these days the marcas are really just for marketing. Brands are rolled in many factories, which move from building to building regulary, so again, are really only seperate/special in name. The sorting and grading is also done by the same people for multiple marcas. One roller may roll 10 different Marcas in a year, and not even know which ones. The labels, boxes, and seals are all made by the same companies as well. 

[SaintMickey®]

9 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

Unfortunately, just one big stump. HSA.

?Actually Laughed Out Loud on that one...

[SaintMickey®]

45 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

Brands are rolled in many factories, which move from building to building regulary, so again, are really only seperate/special in name.

Are we all smoking the same cigar irregardless of brand!? (Joking)

[Corylax18]

19 minutes ago, SaintMickey® said:

Are we all smoking the same cigar irregardless of brand!? (Joking)

Haha. There are some who would tell you yes. Blind tasting results back it up unequivocally. Look at the accuracy rate for the last few tasting comps here, none of us really know what were smoking!

That being said, I do believe there are different blends for each marca and vitola that are adhered to. For example Monte wrappers are typically much darker than cohiba, RyJs should have a reddish hue, etc. The operation/personnel that generate each are one in the same though.  

[El Presidente]

What would be interesting if someone has the time to do it, would be a Cigar Tobacco strain tree from the early 90's to now 

[Fugu]

7 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

but these days the marcas are really just for marketing. [...]  so again, are really only seperate/special in name.

Disagreed.

[Fugu]

7 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

Haha. There are some who would tell you yes. Blind tasting results back it up unequivocally. Look at the accuracy rate for the last few tasting comps here, none of us really know what were smoking!

There is many a people out there who cannot tell Champers from Crémant. Still.....

[Smallclub]

8 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

 but these days the marcas are really just for marketing. Brands […] are really only seperate/special in name.

False. You really believe the difference between Partagas, Hoyo and Cohiba is "just for marketing"?

[CaptainQuintero]

9 hours ago, SaintMickey® said:

Are we all smoking the same cigar irregardless of brand!? (Joking)

Personally I think there is now a 'core cigar model' blend which forms the base of something like 2/3 of a cigar, the final third being what sets it apart from others. This isn't for all cigars as some are very clearly individual blends from the start. But I think, especially for robustos, the 'core blend' seems to make some CC seem very similar when blending isn't quite right, or even when it is. Blind tasting between D4, RASS, Epi#2, Royal Corona etc seems to point towards something like a shared core blend which, depending on the tobacco/construction, can blur the lines between marca significantly.

 

[Corylax18]

5 hours ago, Smallclub said:

False. You really believe the difference between Partagas, Hoyo and Cohiba is "just for marketing"?

If you had read my entirety of my posts, rather than one sentence in one post you would see thats clearly not what I said. Try reading this one slowly and completely.

The different brands do (I believe) have different blends. But the tobacco is all grown, selceted, graded, rolled, sorted, banded, and taste tested by the same people. Working for the same single company that controls (almost) all the tobacco on the island. Cohiba and Monte Cristo are like Cristal and Bucanero. Two products made by the same company, in the same facility, by the same people. They have different labels and flavors though. 

The OPs original question was about a "brand" family tree. There is only one Cuban cigar brand, HSA. They have many different lines which are separated more by presentation than any other part of the cigar. I and everyone else can see the difference in the presentation. Very few of us, even the ones getting snobby now,  can pick those same cigars correctly without the bands. 

[shlomo]

15 hours ago, SaintMickey® said:

I stumbled upon this years ago and have about memorized it.

I'm a clear Sazerac>Buffalo Trace guy with my favorite bourbon being Blanton's. I have a clear Meh' side too but as this is subjective I won't rain on other's taste parade!

Wondering if anyone has seen anything like this for Cuban Cigars?

 

Cool tree/map! Never seen it before. Would love a nicely framed print to hang

[SaintMickey®]

53 minutes ago, shlomo said:

 

Cool tree/map! Never seen it before. Would love a nicely framed print to hang

Ask and  you shall receive!

Small

http://www.storenvy.com/products/9523360-small-whiskey-tree-poster?gclid=CjwKEAiA4dPCBRCM4dqhlv2R1R8SJABom9pH_BJqtmL3zuEvKAhpXJAgYZ8lLTPeJ3rBk7KWx0dznBoCsRLw_wcB

Large

http://www.storenvy.com/products/9523468-large-whiskey-tree-poster?gclid=CjwKEAiA4dPCBRCM4dqhlv2R1R8SJABom9pH2GCCy1NGYpM2aJCRO9MvS5HpYYDAlgOYqZsJE27TLhoCskDw_wcB

[PigFish]

This always seems to be a contentious topic. Who is going to argue what another guy/gal tastes or does not taste.

I don't taste brands. Maybe it is just me. Maybe it is just the vast majority of us that would take part in a blind tasting and get it wrong. The fact remains, people who drink Coke can distinguish it from Pepsi... It does have a brand taste and those that consume it can prove it...! And that is the point then isn't it, if your vast majority of consumers can tell 'their' brand form another? I cannot speak for the experiences of anyone here other than myself. But it appears to me from the evidence of smoking cigars for 30 years, that Cuban quality leads itself into a pit where few can taste much of what they 'claim' to taste when actually blindly tested on it.

I am willing to accept what a guy tells me about himself. But I am also keenly aware of bullshit! And I see a lot of BS in the cigar world. I have proven a lot of it personally pushing the prevailing view that rH is all that matters, a false position, off this forum. It has taken many many years to do it. Frankly it requires proof...

Often the same friends speak up to defend the Cuban brand myth. Yes, I call it a myth because for me, that is want it is.

Proof, yes I take what I see (blind tastings) and know personally and state is as evidence. The burden of proof is not on me, now is it. The burden of proof is on Tabacuba and their loyalist to prove that it exists, beyond that of accident. Me, I can accept that I have the tastes of a goat, if that may be. However, I am not going to accept that asscertaion without requesting that the one making it, prove to me that theirs is better than mine.

So as the same players come out and proclaim that brand tastes exist, they claim with it ostensibly, that they taste better than I do. Okay, I say prove it!

You see, in some ways I also compete in the cigars world. I sell humidor stuff. There is not much of a secret about it. When someone wants to know how something works, I prove my work... I don't allow myth and BS to speak for me.

It is easy to sit behind a keyboard and make claims. What is hard is putting your work out there for your peers to judge. What is hard is backing up your opinions!!! Branding means that a guy can smoke random cigars from random years and pick out the Bolivars, Cohibas, Partagas etcetera... Not once by accident, but time and time again. Frankly, if you consider branding and we as a group as consumers, the point is already proven. Yes, a few can say that we have no taste... but the proof is in the blind tastings. And when a majority of customers 'prove' they cannot tell one cigar from another, there is no other evidence required. The evidence stands alone, alone, well maybe not, it stands with the blind loyalist and the braggart...

-Piggy

[PatrickEwing]

7 hours ago, SaintMickey® said:

Ask and  you shall receive!

Small

http://www.storenvy.com/products/9523360-small-whiskey-tree-poster?gclid=CjwKEAiA4dPCBRCM4dqhlv2R1R8SJABom9pH_BJqtmL3zuEvKAhpXJAgYZ8lLTPeJ3rBk7KWx0dznBoCsRLw_wcB

Large

http://www.storenvy.com/products/9523468-large-whiskey-tree-poster?gclid=CjwKEAiA4dPCBRCM4dqhlv2R1R8SJABom9pH2GCCy1NGYpM2aJCRO9MvS5HpYYDAlgOYqZsJE27TLhoCskDw_wcB

Easiest Christmas shopping of the year! Thanks SantaMickey!!

[Graceland]

as always Ray,

an enlightening read....

cant say I disagree

[Fugu]

Couldn't disagree more, Cory and Piggy... There is quite a bit of mixing up of facts, assumptions, hearsay and opinion (belief). For the good argument's sake: (I wasn't actually wanting to slip into that debate again....) 

10 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

The different brands do (I believe) have different blends. But the tobacco is all grown, selceted, graded, rolled, sorted, banded, and taste tested by the same people. Working for the same single company that controls (almost) all the tobacco on the island. Cohiba and Monte Cristo are like Cristal and Bucanero. Two products made by the same company, in the same facility, by the same people. They have different labels and flavors though.

But tells us what? Shall this serve as an argument pro or contra a marca "family tree"? The fact that they stem from the same "producer" proves downright nothing in that context. In actual fact, it even is not the 'same' producer, in a strict sense (it is a tad more complex as it might appear). And you are contradicting yourself, Cory (perhaps I misunderstood), when conceeding that there are different blends existing but at the same time stating marcas were only for "marketing". How'd you identify and assign those blend-profiles if it weren't for the marcas?!

10 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

The OPs original question was about a "brand" family tree. There is only one Cuban cigar brand, HSA. They have many different lines which are separated more by presentation than any other part of the cigar.

With all due respect, but that explanation still doesn't make your earlier statement more correct either. First of all, HSA is not a brand, it is a company. The brand is Habanos. The marcas are "brands", not lines. And this not only in a factual but also in the legal sense. Certain marcas in turn (not telling any news here) consist of different lines / lineas. This much for technical terms. The different marcas are not held by nor are they property of Habanos S.A. (the exporting and marketing branch). If at all the conjunctive entity here being Cubatabaco, the actual manufacturer Tabacuba. - Anyway and still, that doesn't prove anything with regard to your assumption of all being "the same" and there being no marca profile "families", as has been the question enquired about by the OP.

 

7 hours ago, PigFish said:

Proof, yes I take what I see (blind tastings) and know personally and state is as evidence.

And as for the logic of your and Piggy's rationale - your argumentum a contrario, which you both use, doesn't prove the converse:

As I have been alluding to in the above, most people cannot tell a Pomerol from a Medoc, much less a Saint-Julien from a Pauillac (even skilled Pros). When served blindfolded most folks even have a hard time telling white from red. Since the OP started with it - take telling Bourbon from Scotch, Speyside from Highland (also holding for Pepsi and Coke, has been done a zillion times),... pork from turkey, venison from mutton, Camembert from Brie .... Still, that truly banal fact of human sensoric incapacity, or let's put it more mildly as a sensory limitation, wouldn't really lead you to argue these all being same or not being potentially discriminable, would it? You may / we may not sense it, see - that doesn't tell us anything about the correctness of the assertion. (at the very least, an isotopic analysis can prove it.... )

 

We had an extended debate on that about a year back, incl. ways of production. Your statements don't hold up against a proper checkup. Were the Cuban cigar still be represented by different marcas made by different, separate companies, like has - mostly (by far not all!) - been the case prior to the revolution (but see e.g. J. Gener and others. And even at that time, different companies had always been buying and utilizing, year to year, tobacco from different as well as partially the same vegas, plantations, plots and lots...), I'd wager there would be the exact same difficulty in blind tastings as today! Mostly not the fault of the current product I say.

One may believe it or not, one may taste it or not - marca profiles are existing. Perhaps sometimes being more or less felicitous in their final expression of the blend - let's not forget, tobacco still is a natural product and not a standardized chemical formulation like a soft drink.....And with the blenders there is also a final bit of the human factor involved. So, granted, there is variability, but marca characteristic *is* there, at least it's being tried to achieve and maintain, irrespective of the fact whether the vast majority can actually blindly pinpoint it or not.

Nevermind, and as for arguing about tasting abilities, I would neither demand nor provide proof for it. You may happily call me a believer - or a braggart, if you prefer. 

[Smallclub]

7 hours ago, PigFish said:

... but the proof is in the blind tastings. And when a majority of customers 'prove' they cannot tell one cigar from another, there is no other evidence required.

These blind tastings have no value to the extent that the competence/experience of the tasters is not specified or evaluated…

[Smallclub]

23 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

That being said, I do believe there are different blends for each marca and vitola that are adhered to. For example Monte wrappers are typically much darker than cohiba, RyJs should have a reddish hue, etc. The operation/personnel that generate each are one in the same though.  

So there are different blends for different marcas, "just for marketing"?

As for the Monte/Cohiba wrappers, Montecristo has all sort of wrappers, from claro to almost maduro, when Cohiba is the only marca that gets "selected" wrappers.

As for the reddish hue for RyJ, it's a popular preference on this forum (for good reasons) but it's not a specification of the marca AFAIK.

As for the operation/personnel, do you realize that prior to the revolution, many factories had several marcas rolled/sorted/boxed by the same people in the same premises?

[PigFish]

56 minutes ago, Fugu said:

 

... I would neither demand nor provide proof for it. You may happily call me a believer - or a braggart, if you prefer. 

... prick! (you know I am kidding of course) -LOL

So what you have told us, is that you believe in brands, but cannot distinguish white from red, nor one cigar from another.

Now that I believe!!! -LOL -R

[PigFish]

Oh, and lastly... One guy taking sugar pills while his cancer goes into remission does not prove that cancer can be cured with sugar pills. That is called an anomaly.

How about this one for the brand experts.

Exactly what 'taste' does every Montecristo cigar have? One rule, you cannot use the brand name in your answer!  -P

[Jeremy Festa]

Nuts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jeremy Festa]

Anyone want to delve a little deeper into flavours and senses, look up Charles Spence. Psych Professor at Oxford.

To paraphrase:- We taste with our eyes first and everything else follows.

So, if their is a marca on the box or a band on the cigar it is easy. Without, it is rather difficult.


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[Fataman]

Has anyone seen or participated in a NC blind taste test? I haven't but would guess that the success rate would be similar to the Cuban test..........
Or are the guys guessing the NC correctly at a higher percentage rate?

[PapaDisco]

It will be a grand day for cigars when (if!) all of the HSA marcas are back in private hands.  Image each one estate produced and rolled.