zeedubbya Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 I do a lot of trades, too many likely. I've noticed something recently and I would like some feedback. I have noticed some Marcas seem to pickup moisture during travel a lot easier than others. Two recent examples are I received a split of SCDLH Torreon from a great BOTL and they arrived in perfect shape, but they were very dense and heavy. No crackle to the cigar at all. I know they were stored at 60 RH, but I think when they reached me they gained a lot of moisture. To me San Cristobal cigars have to rest for more time than other Marcas. I think Upmann is same way. I traded some H Upmann with another BOTL and he commented to me how moist the cigars seemed when he got them. I also have noticed Upmann benefits from additional rest time. The first box of Upmann PCs I got from our host were awful even after 60 days. I almost wrote them off--but now after 6 months at 60 rH they are fantastic. Same with Winnie's I have gotten. Almost written off after 30 days then had one after 90 days and they are awesome. I don't feel Montecristo, Partagas, Hoyo and Cohiba are this way. 30 days and they're ready. Anyone else notice this? Thanks for any input. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garbandz Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 how do cigars gain moisture while inside a plastic bag? more likely they are too moist before shipping. Even if kept at a certain RH, it takes a long time to lose moisture. I have traded a lot too,and I get overmoist cigars often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Zany, the first thing you learn helping people to store cigars better is this; never trust the numbers (the storage conditions) they claim to have! I would say most, if not all of these cigars, came with the water. Many cigar smokers have no clue as to what is really going on in their humidor. -R 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaDisco Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Temperature In Transit. Or "T . . ." well you get the acronym. That's the source of the problem IMHO. Most likely they're starting out the trip just fine, then get into a chilly (very chilly) cargo hold and voila! Rh goes to the moon and into your sticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugu Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 But Poppy, that wouldn't change any bit in tobacco moisture in a sealed package. A short-term redistribution will be back to normal rather quickly after reaching "normal" temps again. And to add - the water contained in the air volume of a sealed box is negligible in this consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaDisco Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 1 hour ago, Fugu said: But Poppy, that wouldn't change any bit in tobacco moisture in a sealed package. A short-term redistribution will be back to normal rather quickly after reaching "normal" temps again. And to add - the water contained in the air volume of a sealed box is negligible in this consideration. Fugu! Did you just say that T-I-T doesn't matter?! You are correct that it depends to a large degree on how the cigars are packaged. If the individual cigars are vacuum packed in impermeable plastic then they only have their own moisture content to deal with (which will be affected by temperature, it's just that it will only happen within the cigar). If the cigars are shipped in their original box then there's more available moisture to condense and from materials with different properties of absorption/retention/release (or whatever El Pig calls it). And for ZeeDub: most of my Upmanns seem sensitive to travel, particularly the PC's and the Sir Winnies. Not so much the Connies. The PC's and Sir Winstons need to rest for 6 months it seems, and I no longer take them on trips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeedubbya Posted December 8, 2016 Author Share Posted December 8, 2016 10 minutes ago, PapaDisco said: Correct, it depends to a large degree on how the cigars are packaged. If the individual cigars are vacuum packed in impermeable plastic then you're correct: they only have their own moisture content to deal with (which will be affected by temperature, it's just that it will only happen within the cigar). If the cigars are shipped in their original box then there's more available moisture to condense and from materials with different properties of absorption/retention/release (or whatever El Pig calls it). And for ZeeDub: most of my Upmanns seem sensitive to travel, particularly the PC's and the Sir Winnies. Not so much the Connies. The PC's and Sir Winstons need to rest for 6 months it seems, and I no longer take them on trips. Papa I almost quoted you in the original post as I have heard you say quite often you've noticed Winnie's are particularly sensitive. Thanks for chiming in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt45 Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 If it truly is marque dependent ( I've never really considered it ), I guess it's less about the band than the tobacco. It would mean that tobacco from some areas, or primings, or combinations, are more prone to retain moisture than others..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianbeaver Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 As always, each of us is in a different place, at a different time, different sticks in different air quality. Peace man and dig my brother Pig. Go with the flow and organic groovy-ness, man. Stick a vessel of water in when dry, take 'em out to a humi for a few days and let the sticks dry. It does not have to be rocket science, just common sense, baby Peace, brother. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avaldes Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet, is that no two instruments measure the environment exactly the same. Your thermometer/hygrometer may read 65% and theirs may measure 55%. This is particularly true with the inexpensive devices that are most frequently used in this hobby. In industry we spend a lot of money on instrumentation and calibration. That is why it is so important to experiment with your own storage conditions to find the right combination that YOU like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugu Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 On 08/12/2016 at 9:57 PM, PapaDisco said: Fugu! Did you just say that T-I-T doesn't matter?! It does, but not with regard to H2O! On 08/12/2016 at 9:57 PM, PapaDisco said: You are correct that it depends to a large degree on how the cigars are packaged. If the individual cigars are vacuum packed in impermeable plastic then they only have their own moisture content to deal with (which will be affected by temperature, it's just that it will only happen within the cigar). If the cigars are shipped in their original box then there's more available moisture to condense and from materials with different properties of absorption/retention/release (or whatever El Pig calls it). I said quite the opposite, Papa - it doesn't matter at all how they are packaged! Also holding for complete boxes with a lot of air, what I stated. It seems in fact surprising, but it is virtually irrelevant how much air volume is contained in there, since the tobacco is holding much more water. Quick example and calculation for a rough figure in order to get an idea: Let's assume a box taken from storage @ 65% rH and 20 °C, sealed airtight in a plastic bag and then shipped: The absolute humidity for those conditons will be 11.26 g water per cubic metre of gas volume at standard atm pressure. Now, let's take a (model) SLB of 50 "Coronas Gordas", in a box of let's say 15x15x15 cm with cigars @ 10 g each = 500 g of tobacco contained (I am too lazy to look up, so this conservative approach should just suit us here). The total volume of that box - we shall take the total volume as a simplification, and equate it to the air volume without deduction for tobacco - corresponds to a fraction of appr. a 1/300th of a cubic metre (0.00338 m^3). Thus, the amount of gaseous water within said box will be a mere 0.0375 g (~40 mg H2O within the 3.3-l gas volume)! Whereas the total amount of adsorbed water contained in the tobacco, at a rough 10% w/w moisture, will amount to 50 g, several magnitudes more. The total amount of water in the air volume is corresponding to only a tiny fraction of the water in the tobacco in this example, less than 0.08%. Dew point for that combo will be 13.2 °C. So that tiny amount of water (< 1 mg per stick) will at some point condensate, perhaps even completely once considerably cooled down during transit, and will be taken up by the tobacco and the box. But whether the sticks are <0.1% more or less moist is completely irrelevant and won't be noticeable. This also shows how unnecessary vaccumization is from a moisture perspective. A propoperly sealed package will do just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 46 minutes ago, Fugu said: It does, but not with regard to H2O! I said quite the opposite, Papa - it doesn't matter at all how they are packaged! Also holding for complete boxes with a lot of air, what I stated. It seems in fact surprising, but it is virtually irrelevant how much air volume is contained in there, since the tobacco is holding much more water. Quick example and calculation for a rough figure in order to get an idea: Let's assume a box taken from storage @ 65% rH and 20 °C, sealed airtight in a plastic bag and then shipped: The absolute humidity for those conditons will be 11.26 g water per cubic metre of gas volume at standard atm pressure. Now, let's take a (model) SLB of 50 "Coronas Gordas", in a box of let's say 15x15x15 cm with cigars @ 10 g each = 500 g of tobacco contained (I am too lazy to look up, so this conservative approach should just suit us here). The total volume of that box - we shall take the total volume as a simplification, and equate it to the air volume without deduction for tobacco - corresponds to a fraction of appr. a 1/300th of a cubic metre (0.00338 m^3). Thus, the amount of gaseous water within said box will be a mere 0.0375 g (~40 mg H2O within the 3.3-l gas volume)! Whereas the total amount of adsorbed water contained in the tobacco, at a rough 10% w/w moisture, will amount to 50 g, several magnitudes more. The total amount of water in the air volume is corresponding to only a tiny fraction of the water in the tobacco in this example, less than 0.08%. Dew point for that combo will be 13.2 °C. So that tiny amount of water (< 1 mg per stick) will at some point condensate, perhaps even completely once considerably cooled down during transit, and will be taken up by the tobacco and the box. But whether the sticks are <0.1% more or less moist is completely irrelevant and won't be noticeable. This also shows how unnecessary vaccumization is from a moisture perspective. A propoperly sealed package will do just fine. ... good analysis mate, bravo! I find only a rare instance where I can be concise! The water came with the cigars!!! Furthermore, changing environments will cause water migration (already mentioned in the thread, but too lazy to read it again and give credit)!!! People often mistake water migration conditions, soft wrapper, loose wrapper, etc. for a total wet condition. Water migration is a real problem when shipping. Going from memory the only argument that I would make with the those that brought up migration (above) would be the time to normalize. I believe this would be considerably longer, but the fact is, no one really knows! Cheers! -Piggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bohn007 Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 On 12/8/2016 at 2:57 PM, PapaDisco said: Fugu! Did you just say that T-I-T doesn't matter?! You are correct that it depends to a large degree on how the cigars are packaged. If the individual cigars are vacuum packed in impermeable plastic then they only have their own moisture content to deal with (which will be affected by temperature, it's just that it will only happen within the cigar). If the cigars are shipped in their original box then there's more available moisture to condense and from materials with different properties of absorption/retention/release (or whatever El Pig calls it). And for ZeeDub: most of my Upmanns seem sensitive to travel, particularly the PC's and the Sir Winnies. Not so much the Connies. The PC's and Sir Winstons need to rest for 6 months it seems, and I no longer take them on trips. This is good to know. I have 3 2001 Sir Winnie's on the way from a BOTL. Normally I would only give them 30 days before trying one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeedubbya Posted December 11, 2016 Author Share Posted December 11, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, PigFish said: ... good analysis mate, bravo! I find only a rare instance where I can be concise! The water came with the cigars!!! Furthermore, changing environments will cause water migration (already mentioned in the thread, but too lazy to read it again and give credit)!!! People often mistake water migration conditions, soft wrapper, loose wrapper, etc. for a total wet condition. Water migration is a real problem when shipping. Going from memory the only argument that I would make with the those that brought up migration (above) would be the time to normalize. I believe this would be considerably longer, but the fact is, no one really knows! Cheers! -Piggy So if we take @Fugu 's math and assume there's an insignificant amount of water gained or lost, and consider migration as the culprit then would it make sense certain blends could be subject to greater migration than others? If you put Churchill A and Churchill B in same container, and they experience similar migrations in transit could it be possible the smoking experience is different due to the blend and the moisture holding capacity of one type of leaf over another? As a completely hypothetical example (I have no knowledge of these ratios at all) Lets say a Sir Winston is composed of a 30% Ligero, 35% Seco, 30% Volado Filler. A BCG is composed of 35% Ligero, 30% Seco 30% Volado Filler. I believe it's possible in this hypothetical example the BCG could suffer less travel sickness due to blend, and what has to be a different migration or water? If Volado is more combustible and Ligero is higher up the plant maybe the rate of migration is then different for Ligero Heavy Blends vs. Volado or Seco heavy blends. Which should likely impact the smoking experience--at least until the time to normalize is reached. @Colt45 mentioned something to this effect above. Overthinking things since the early 80's! Edited December 11, 2016 by zeedubbya Credit to Colt45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugu Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Ok, for the discussion's sake - Actually Piggy and ZW, I don't buy too much into a significant effect of water re-distribution (or migration) on temp-change either (sorry Piggy). It will be there, yes sure, but it will rather be tiny, minute, minuscule compared to other effects and won't affect cigars to any larger extent. At least certainly not for long. Why I believe so? Tobacco, being a highly hygroscopic material and showing a high water activity, always competes for water - gains and loses it rather quickly. Of course, the particular time course of that will depend much on temperature, gradients (delta rH), on form factor and on packaging. But a single stick left in the open is potentially able to fully dry out or to get soaking wet over night - most of us will have observed that on the odd occasion with the remains left in the ash tray... A within-stick inhomogeneity, a moisture gradient build-up - I think - will even out fairly quickly. It's a matter of days at most, not of weeks or months. A more pronounced effect (or problem), which I see here, could potentially occur when people open a cold parcel directly on receipt, as may happen when received during the cold season. In such a case, you will get the air humidity from the room to condensate immediately on and adsorb to the goods. Therefore it is important to always let a parcel reach at least normal storage temperature before breaking the airtight packaging. These processes are running quicker as one might believe (that's the real problem in fact, not it being so slow), and the actual moisture equilibration then depends to a much higher degree on the permeability of the packaging than on the tobacco itself. As for the observation in the Swinstons - I fully agree, freshies need more time to come around and to shed some of their initial baby fat moisture compared to other cigars. Therefore, in my opinion (e.g. Esplendidos, Lanceros, Noellas also falling into that camp), that is not particularly a response to travelling per se but more so due to a general higher hygroscopicity of those tobacco blends (quite like Colt says), needing more time to becoming enjoyably smokeable. Under identical storage conditions, I believe that those cigars will usually hold a higher moisture content as others (yes, just empirical wisdom, no science... haha). With most issues of those sticks upon shipping - as Piggy sais - most likely deriving from too high a moisture content in the first place. (and - side note - it's indeed a wise provision to ship sticks fairly well humidified, as that reduces the risk of mechanical damage during shipment.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeedubbya Posted December 12, 2016 Author Share Posted December 12, 2016 2 hours ago, Fugu said: A more pronounced effect (or problem), which I see here, could potentially occur when people open a cold parcel directly on receipt, as may happen when received during the cold season. In such a case, you will get the air humidity from the room to condensate immediately on and adsorb to the goods. Therefore it is important to always let a parcel reach at least normal storage temperature before breaking the airtight packaging. These processes are running quicker as one might believe (that's the real problem in fact, not it being so slow), and the actual moisture equilibration then depends to a much higher degree on the permeability of the packaging than on the tobacco itself. It's interesting you say this because the package I received which prompted this post was exactly this. Very cold. Felt cold. Cigars felt cold. And I opened the bags right up and noticed....not much smell....but in a very short amount of time the smell became strong and the cigars became dense. I see what you're saying as being the most likely explanation. The surrounding moisture might have quickly ran to the cigars and (as Piggy says) the water brought the smell of the cigars to my nose. Makes sense. So then can we maybe lessen this travel sickness by making sure we do not open cigars immediately and let them acclimate in their transport vessel for a few days? I am not sure this is possible! It's human nature to want to "open presents" immediately. I'll experiment with it a little. See if the next round of trades I get if I can hold off for a couple days before I open them. See if it helps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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